1909VDB MATTE PROOF & 1990 NO S LINCOLN POP REPORTS

Steve

I have always been interested in the population reports of these two Lincoln cent proof coins because of their known rarity in absolute numbers. I think those knowledgeable in this area believe that no more than 200 of the 1909 VDB Matte Proofs and 200 of the 1990 no S proof are in existence. Thanks to ANACS now making their population report available on line I have gotten the latest up to date counts from all 3 grading services that make their population numbers available. Here are the results:

.........................PCGS.....NGC.....ANACS......TOTAL
1909 VDB..............97........48........23............168
1990 NO S.............82........19........1..............102

Obviously there are some duplications caused by crackouts and resubmissions so these reported numbers are probably on the high side. If you are a Lincoln cent collector and you own one or both of these proof Lincoln cents you can feel very confident that you own a true absolute rarity in the series. JMHO. Steve

LeeG

Thanks for the info Steve. Don't own either coin, maybe someday though.

Gobrechts99Grapevine

Thanks Steve! Im ridiculously lucky enough to have custody of this gorgeous, VERY PQ, MS64RB beauty. It's probably my favorite out of all my Lincolns, and it's my only proof.

cohodk

<< <i>Thanks Steve! Im ridiculously lucky enough to have custody of this gorgeous, VERY PQ, MS64RB beauty. It's probably my favorite out of all my Lincolns, and it's my only proof.

>>



Very nice coin. You should sent to me so I can re-unite him with his brothers.

jacktheknife

Nice coin!! I have a few Lincolns , but don't own either of these proofs. I'd certainly pull the trigger on the 09 VDB Matte Proof, given the right opportunity.

Jack

TomB

G99GV, did you buy your 1909 VDB from Ira? Nice coin.

Gobrechts99Grapevine

"G99GV, did you buy your 1909 VDB from Ira? Nice coin."

I could quote Curly of Three Stooges fame and say, "Why Soitenly!" -- if it weren't for my previous protestation to the contrary. I AM on record as saying that I get ALL of my coins from ebay. Do you think I could have JUST been KIDDING? What are innocent numismatists to believe?

WaterSport

You have to love those numbers, even if you do not either of them, and sadly I do not.

WS

segoja

How many of the 90 No "S" are still raw???? I sold 5 sets in the last 12 months raw taht I know have not been graded, and seem to get one or two offered every few months.

Same question about the 09....my guess is a larger majority of the exisitng population ahs been graded.

Says a lot about the 90 No "S"

Steve

My take is that there are still close to 100 1990 no S proofs still in their proof set cases. Some may be deteriorating every day bacause the case is not air tight. Some of these proofs are in dealers hands and my guess is that if they were gradeable they would already be in PCGS holders. The rest are probably held by collectors and depending on how they hold up over time will eventially be slabbed. The population of this coin went up by about 20 a couple of years ago as I believe more collectors realized that keeping the coin in an original government proof set holder was the WRONG thing to do. The coin has now established a price range of $6,000 to $15,000. I would expect to see another 10 or so get graded each year for the next three or four years and then see the numbers slack down. Certainly, there is an incentive to crack out a high end 68DCAM to try and get a 69DCAM for a $6k profit, but I don't think that is happening very much.

My take on the 1909VDB is very different. I believe that 99% of the available coins are now in the hands of collectors, NOT dealers. I have not seen a certified 1909VDB Matte proof offered for sale in any coin hobby advertisement in years. If there was one offered on EBAY you can bet it would be raw and it would not be the real thing. (lacking the 3 key diagnostics). So the only legitimate way to own one of these coins today is thru auction or private treaty.

All the above is just my opinion of course. Steve

cohodk

I have not seen a certified 1909VDB Matte proof offered for sale in any coin hobby advertisement in years.


Steve, RCW had an NGC 66RB advertised in Coin World last year. I believe it was the same one that sold last fall in a Heritage sale.

Steve

<< <i>


Steve, RCW had an NGC 66RB advertised in Coin World last year. I believe it was the same one that sold last fall in a Heritage sale. >>



Dave, I vaguely remember that now. I don't recall the offering price or whether it sold, but it certainly is the exception. I would think that any dealer who got his hands on one of these coins in a PCGS, NGC or even a ANACS holder would have potential customers waiting to buy it without having to advertise. (unless the offering price is way above market) JMHO. Steve

cohodk

Agreed Steve.

I think at the time the asking price was around 26K. My contact told me the coin was nothing special in the slab.

speety

What are the 3 key markers to spot a matte proof VDB? They are pretty interesting to me and i'll be keeping an eye out for them in the future

Steve

<< <i>What are the 3 key markers to spot a matte proof VDB? They are pretty interesting to me and i'll be keeping an eye out for them in the future >>



Mark, the three key diagnostics that appear on all legitimate 1909VDB Matte proof Lincoln cents are as follows:

1. Die polish shows on front of and on top of Lincoln's nose on the obverse.

2. A die scratch from the back of Lincoln's coat into the field to below the right leg of the "R" of LIBERTY on the obverse.

3. A cresent shaped die chip to the right of "M" in UNUM on the reverse.

Most experts believe that only ONE obverse die and ONE reverse die was used in the production of these VDB Matte proofs. The obverse die diagnostics also appear on SOME 1909 noVDB Matte proof Lincoln cents including the one I own. It is very important to not buy a raw example of this rare coin because if the coin does not display these diagnostics, the leading third party grading services will not certify the coin. JMHO. Steve

BN

Steve -

Hey thanks for this info. I inheirited my grandfathers coing collection and I found a 1909 VDB matte proof in it. I was a little skeptical since I found a few fakes in the collection, but the three points you stated above verify it's real. Awesome!!

Though, I can't seem to find point three though. What will this crecent die mark look like on the REV? Is it very light? Close or far from the M?

I also found a 1909S-VDB in the collection along with a number of other gems... I'm geeked. Unfortunatley I have to split the collection with my cousin who only wants cash money... ;( Needless to say, I've taken charge of the 'great divide'.

Thanks,

BN

WaterSport

The 1983 ANA reprint on matte proofs and the combined ANA booklet on counterfeits and matte proofs should be in every collector’s library. They are cheap, usually around $15 and have black and white illustrations of all the matte proof die markers. It is a must have reference for Matte collectors.


• ISBN-10: 0317125753
• ISBN-13: 978-0317125757
There is one at Amazon now for $8 and one for $12.24, and three for $30 which is rip.

Well, what are you waiting for…go get um!!!!

WS

Steve

Brent,
Welcome!

Before you get "too excited" about your grandfathers collection, make sure you really have what you think you have. We have all heard lots of stories about inherited collections. As far as the 1909 VDB Matte Proof Lincoln cent, how do you know FOR SURE it is a real Matte Proof? Have you been collecting for a long time? Have you personally seen other Matte Proof Lincolns both in certified slabs and raw? I don't want to sound negative, but at the same time I wouldn't want you to ultimately be disappointed. If you have the real thing and it looks nice you could easily have a $10,000 coin. Obviously, all the key coins you have need to be certified if you expect to eventually receive fair value when you sell. Good luck. Steve

BN

Oh, I'm right there with ya Steve. That's why I was so skeptical and still am.

I know for sure on the 1909S-VDB, that's a no brainer.

I don't think I'd say that I'm a collector, but a pragmatic evaluator of what has been given to us. I've been around coin collecting all my life. Most the males in the family are collectors. Though they have all died as time went on, so I've only one person left who's worth his salt in the family to eval the coins. Though he's on the otherside of the country.

As for how do I know for sure. Honestly I don't. It was labled 'matte proof' and two of the three keys you listed above matched. And it has the matte finish. As to where my Grandfather got this coin I don't know, I mean he was old enough to have aquired it back then. But I imagine it's been sought after for quite some time, as time went on I wonder how he'd afford it.

I suppose the best way to know is to send it to PCGS and have them tell me. Though to be honest, I feel really weird sending a coin of that potential value to people I don't know and hoping everyone along the line is honest. yeah, I know they are very repuatable.

Aside from the books listed above if you have any ideas where I might find information on evaluating if it's real (descriptions, images) I'd appreciate the info.

BN

Steve

Brent,
There are many books and sources about coins. You can check the internet. You can become very knowledgeable about different coins and different series. I assume you are also interested in the values of your coins. I assume you are aware of the grading process and how it works. It is very subjective. A coin you might believe to be in very fine condition might be considered only very good by another collector. That is why I suggest that those coins YOU believe have some value (ie) over $100 each that you have that confirmed by a grading service like PCGS or NGC. Of course, you do not have to do that. You can enjoy the coins you have for what they appear to be. Just don't ASSUME that any of them are valuable until someone is willing to pay YOU valuable money for the coins. Remember, even the 1909S VDB has been counterfeited and any knowledgeable potential buyer would want to be sure it was the real thing. If your grandfather's 1909 VDB Matte proof cent was put in a 2x2 holder with the words Matte proof on the holder, that would seem to me that HE believed it is a Matte proof. If you can see the squared rims on that coin that would be one indication of it being real. The square rims are possible on regular 1909VDB cents also. The impression should be very strong on Lincoln's head and the Wheat ears. So it really boils down to how you feel about these coins. Do you want to confirm you have the real thing or do you just want to enjoy what you have with the "fun" of possibility. No one here can confirm any of this, however, if you chose to post pictures of what you have, I'm sure someone will give you their opinion. Steve

BN

Steve -

Thanks for that. I'm mainly interesting hold a few choice items, but mainly cashing out my cousin, while holding as much gold and silver as I can. So that makes it tricky.

I am in the process of scanning everything, so I'll posts pics as I get them.

Thanks again,

BN