Here's MY shipping pet peeve; gouging an extra buck or two on insurance

Estil

You know how those things read on Ebay auctions:

"At the buyer's option, you may add insurance for an extra $x.xx since I am in no way responsible for uninsured packages"

IOW, if the package arrives smashed, gets lost (of course, the seller could just not send it all and claim it got lost) or especially if the seller did a poor packaging job, all the seller has to do is:

"Well, you didn't pay extra for the insurance. Sorry."

Thus, your product is ruined (or doesn't arrive at all), the seller keeps all your money. And they claim the insurance is to protect the SELLER!? Sounds to me like the buyer is the one that gets burned if they don't get the insurance.

Of course, I always ship my stuff via UPS, which includes insurance (first $100 anyway), package tracking, and delivery confirmation at no extra charge. Which of course, you must pay extra for EACH of these with the Post Office.

MikeyLikesIt

So you would ship 1 card UPS?

1966CUDA

I think it is still there responsibility that the product arrives in said condition. Even if you dont chose the insurance they still have to prove they got it to you dont they???

dpfitzell

I had a textbook sell for over 100. got damaged in the mail, they chose not to get insurance, I gave them a full refund anyways but I require insurance on all of my auctions now.

dpfitzell

Even if you dont chose the insurance they still have to prove they got it to you dont they???


I put delivery conf on every thing. Most sellers do don't they?

1966CUDA

I send just about everything with delivery confirmation....but do receive a lot that does not have it!!

MikeyLikesIt

What if the seller asks an outrageous $1.35 for insurance on say a $45 card to which you refuse. He packages it perfectly (or at least up to your standards) and it still gets damaged. Do you really think he is at fault?

grote15

Insurance is for the protection of the SELLER, not the buyer. If a buyer uses Paypal to pay for the item and the item is lost in the mail, they will issue a full refund to the buyer regardless of whether insurance is purchased or not, every time.

Estil

<< <i>So you would ship 1 card UPS? >>



If it's a high priced single, like over $50 or something, sure.

Estil

<< <i>Insurance is for the protection of the SELLER, not the buyer. If a buyer uses Paypal to pay for the item and the item is lost in the mail, they will issue a full refund to the buyer regardless of whether insurance is purchased or not, every time. >>



Then how come it's usually the BUYER that has to pay for it?

storm888

"Then how come it's usually the BUYER that has to pay for it? "

///////////////////////////////////////

Because sellers have been very lucky at convincing
buyers that the buyer must pay for it.

As was said, insurance is for the protection of the
seller. PayPal will refund the buyer, if an uninsured
item is lost or damaged.

ctsoxfan

<< <i>

<< <i>So you would ship 1 card UPS? >>



If it's a high priced single, like over $50 or something, sure. >>



Doesn't that seem like a waste of money, though? You could send the card boxed Priority Mail with DC for $4.05, and the odds of it getting there safely are pretty darn good. UPS has got to cost you 6 or 7 bucks at least, and the service isn't as good - they will just throw the package anywhere unless you request a signature confirmation (more money).

Estil

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>So you would ship 1 card UPS? >>



If it's a high priced single, like over $50 or something, sure. >>



Doesn't that seem like a waste of money, though? You could send the card boxed Priority Mail with DC for $4.05, and the odds of it getting there safely are pretty darn good. UPS has got to cost you 6 or 7 bucks at least, and the service isn't as good - they will just throw the package anywhere unless you request a signature confirmation (more money). >>



Ah, and there in lies the problem with the Post Office. I choose UPS because they tend to take better care of their packages, and sure, basic Priority may be cheaper, but when you factor in all the extra costs for insurance, delivery confirmation, and package tracking, all of which comes with UPS at no extra charge, then it's not such a bargain anymore, isn't it?

shambo2000

A package that weighs one pound (several cards) shipped via USPS from NY to LA with delivery confirmation and insurance (up to $100) costs $6.35 ($6.85 if you take it to the PO). Via UPS standard ground the same would cost $9.18.

USPS info take from my head (not always accurate at 3:40am or anytime for that matter)
UPS info take from their web site.

shambo2000

The USPS rate was Priority, by the way.

ctsoxfan

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>So you would ship 1 card UPS? >>



If it's a high priced single, like over $50 or something, sure. >>



Doesn't that seem like a waste of money, though? You could send the card boxed Priority Mail with DC for $4.05, and the odds of it getting there safely are pretty darn good. UPS has got to cost you 6 or 7 bucks at least, and the service isn't as good - they will just throw the package anywhere unless you request a signature confirmation (more money). >>



Ah, and there in lies the problem with the Post Office. I choose UPS because they tend to take better care of their packages, and sure, basic Priority may be cheaper, but when you factor in all the extra costs for insurance, delivery confirmation, and package tracking, all of which comes with UPS at no extra charge, then it's not such a bargain anymore, isn't it? >>



Shambo has the numbers above, but I think you missed my point. The $4.05 for USPS Priority includes delivery confirmation, you only have to add if you want insurance. But, its still cheaper to add $100 of insurance to that package than to go with UPS. And, if you think UPS handles their packages better, I disagree. The local UPS driver will leave packages anywhere, in any weather, unless you specifically request a signature confirmation. And, with UPS, you have to pay extra in the fee for that.

Believe me, I use both - but unless the package is big and somewhat heavy, it makes no sense to use UPS for small parcels.

stown

<< <i>"Then how come it's usually the BUYER that has to pay for it? "

///////////////////////////////////////

Because sellers have been very lucky at convincing
buyers that the buyer must pay for it.

As was said, insurance is for the protection of the
seller. PayPal will refund the buyer, if an uninsured
item is lost or damaged. >>



Wait, wait, wait...

Really? I honestly didn't know that.

I won an auction a while ago for +/- $40 delivered, didn't include insurance, and paid with PayPal.. When the item was declared "lost", the Seller told me that I should have insured and it wasn't his responsibility.

It's a little too late to go back but this is good to know for future reference.

Thanks storm

BobaFett72

"I choose UPS because they tend to take better care of their packages, and sure, basic Priority may be cheaper, but when you factor in all the extra costs for insurance, delivery confirmation, and package tracking, all of which comes with UPS at no extra charge, then it's not such a bargain anymore, isn't it?"

I've found packages from UPS in the bushes, in the neighbors yard, on the back porch with no notice of it being left...crushed, opened, dinged et.al. i never ship UPS unless desperate.

Cost wise, if you can fit something heavy into a USPS priority flat rate, it's the best deal in the business.

KOBEcollector

I choose UPS because they tend to take better care of their packages,

Have you ever seen the inside of a UPS truck ?

Trust me, it ain't pretty lol

Dave

dpfitzell

Has anyone ever tried to get your money back for damaged packages with ups, Not fun they will drag it on forever untill you decide its not worth it any more. The post office is pays pretty quickley very enjoyable experience.

lostdart58

Having sent and received over 3000 items via USPS, I can say that the need to insure or pay for insurance for items under $100 ain't worth spending the money.........................I have had two items not show up.

That being said just about all the items i have sent or received are individual cards or small lots of cards; when shipping boxes or bulkier items that are susceptible to being banged up ( inspite of good packaging) I would consider paying for insurance even if the item value is less then $100.

( UPS is not an option where I am from)

drewsef

WHOA WHOA WHOA STOP THE BUS HERE Wasn't your shipping pet peeve about how Ebay sellers ship complete sets? Now you want another pet peeve on shipping, geez

Kid4hof03

Some of the information listed here has been incorrect. I can't speak for damaged items, but as for lost items paypal will NOT refund if the seller offers proof that the item was sent via delivery confirmation.

Abe

grote15

paypal will NOT refund if the seller offers proof that the item was sent via delivery confirmation.


That is incorrect. If the buyer files a claim for a missing package with Paypal and the seller cannot prove that the package was delivered (via delivery confirmation or via signature confirmation if the value is over $250), Paypal will find in favor of the buyer every time.

cardbender

IMHO paying for insurance is a waste of money. (see below)

I cannot offer any opinions on UPS other than the fact that they will leave packages at my backdoor when no one is home to answer the bell.

I've shipped over 10,000 items (mostly cards) thru USPS and so far only THREE have not shown up in the buyers hands. Two of those were luckily insured by the buyer. On the other one, I offered to split the difference with the buyer on the value of the item lost even though they choose to pass on the optional insurance.

I've had only ONE package ever get damaged in shipping in the past nine years, but I package items pretty well. Usually using padded mailers with extra bubble wrap inside the mailer. Or I mail cards in 400 ct. boxes. I typically charge $3 shipping with delivery confirmation, and offer insurance as a option to the buyer.

So that's four items out of over 10000 shipments that something went wrong with. I'll take those percentages every time as both a buyer or a seller using USPS.

262Runner

I'm Confused, how does having insurance on an item protect you from it being "Lost in the mail"? I thought Delivery confermation was all that was needed to insure your item was delivered or not. I always believed insurance was for damage in shipping. If an item is lost or does not arrive, how would insurance help a buyer If I do not have the item "damaged" to submit the claim? Am I wrong on this?

212

grote15

I always believed insurance was for damage in shipping.

Insurance also covers lost packages, too. In fact, it's much easier to collect on a claim from the USPS for a missing package than a damaged one, as they will sometimes claim that the item was not packaged properly if it arrives damaged and give you a bigger hassle on it in the process.,

rise2it

As dpfitzell said, UPS will do just about anything to get out of paying a claim. Basically, they just put you off and drag things out until you give up and go away. Truly pathetic from a service standpoint.

The Postal Service will pay claims without much of a hassle, but the shipping rates are much higher once you get past a couple of pounds weight.

I'm part of business that ships about 10,000+ packages a year (nothing to do with eBay), so I've seen it all.

As a card buyer, as far as I'm concerned it's the seller's responsibility to get the package to me. I could care less what is in their ad, because I KNOW what is in their ebay/paypal/credit card agreements, and trying to 'pass the buck' isn't valid, pure and simple - THEY are responsible.

As a seller/shipper, you've got to expect that about 1 package out of every 100 or so is going to get damaged/lost, and plan accordingly.

fandango

not for nothing, but arent there more important things going on in the hobby to worry about than an extra $1 charged on shipping?


seems so trivial.....

lets focus out energy on more important things (real crimes that are being commited)

lostdart58

<< <i>not for nothing, but arent there more important things going on in the hobby to worry about than an extra $1 charged on shipping?


seems so trivial.....

lets focus out energy on more important things (real crimes that are being commited) >>




........when you buy and sell thousands of item, an extra dollar per item does make a difference.......

stown

What a coincidence.

Received an item yesterday with a PayPal shipping sticker.

I paid for insurance through PP's check-out but the sticker said "No Insurance".



What the heck?!?

storm888

"I paid for insurance through PP's check-out but the sticker said "No Insurance"."

//////////////////////////////////////////////////

Report it to PayPal and to EBAY.

cravetopps

"Then how come it's usually the BUYER that has to pay for it? "

///////////////////////////////////////

Because sellers have been very lucky at convincing
buyers that the buyer must pay for it.

As was said, insurance is for the protection of the
seller. PayPal will refund the buyer, if an uninsured
item is lost or damaged. ///////////

Not quite so simple.......

The key is the point of transfer of ownership and if it is stated in the description, and the buyer pays for the item, the seller becomes the buyer's agent, shipping the buyer's property on their behalf.

The seller DOES have to exercise "due care" in handling and packaging, since negligence on the part of the seller, resulting in damage, will almost always be found to be the shipper's fault.

But if the item is stolen or lost in transit, or is damaged in spite of seller exercising "due care", the loss is due solely to the owner's failure to have their shipping agent, (the seller,) insure their personal property.

Such loss in that case, is not the responsibility of the shipper/seller.

Bottom line.....if insurance is mandatory and stated in the auction, take it into account when bidding, pay for it, particularly if the card value is more than you're willing to lose. It is for both buyer's and seller's protection.

grote15

But if the item is stolen or lost in transit, or is damaged in spite of seller exercising "due care", the loss is due solely to the owner's failure to have their shipping agent, (the seller,) insure their personal property.

Botton line, though, is that if a buyer files a claim through paypal for a missing package or a package that never arrived, and the seller cannot prove delivery, Paypal will refund the buyer EVERY SINGLE TIME. That is why insurance is protection for the SELLER not the buyer. If a package is lost by the USPS (as unlikely as that is), the seller can then file a claim with the PO to recoup his losses. By that time though the buyer will have his refund and the seller's paypal account will be debited for the full amount of that missing auction item.

storm888

"Such loss in that case, is not the responsibility of the shipper/seller. "

///////////////////////////////////////////////////

The UCC is not fully incorporated into PayPal's TOS.

PayPal membership is a privilege, not a right. Their
TOS makes that clear.

In EVERY case, under PayPal's rules/TOS, the seller
has an absolute duty to assure that the paid for goods
are delivered safe and sound. When the same is not
accomplished, the seller is ALWAYS found to be the
culprit. That is why sellers - who accept PP - should insure
every item, even if they are unable to con buyers into paying
for such insurance.

Elements of the UCC offer a great defense for sellers who do not
accept PayPal. Sellers who take PP are at the mercy of PP's TOS.

cravetopps

Storm...I honestly don't feel like I am trying to "con" buyers into buying insurance. I want the card to arrive safely. It is a cost of sales and the buyer should take it into account when they bid. I am not hiding anything in my auctions. I only sell cards with values in excess of $200. If a buyer doesn't want to pay for insurance, then they don't have to bid in my auction. I won't ship a card without it and I don't want to eat the cost. Why is this any different than any retail business who builds margin into their sales to cover overhead? I lose money when all is said and done on shipping/handling costs because I don't charge for signature confirmation and my postage and insurance costs never cover my actual costs. I agree S&H should not be a profit center but don't vilify sellers who charge for insurance by claiming they are essentially "duping" buyers into paying for it. This is absurd. It's just good business practice for sellers who want to conduct a healthy and safe business on ebay for the benefit of both parties.

storm888

"I honestly don't feel like I am trying to "con" buyers into buying insurance. I want the card to arrive safely. It is a cost of sales and the buyer should take it into account when they bid. I am not hiding anything in my auctions. I only sell cards with values in excess of $200. If a buyer doesn't want to pay for insurance, then they don't have to bid in my auction. I won't ship a card without it and I don't want to eat the cost. Why is this any different than any retail business who builds margin into their sales to cover overhead? I lose money when all is said and done on shipping/handling costs because I don't charge for signature confirmation and my postage and insurance costs never cover my actual costs. I agree S&H should not be a profit center but don't vilify sellers who charge for insurance by claiming they are essentially "duping" buyers into paying for it. This is absurd. It's just good business practice for sellers who want to conduct a healthy and safe business on ebay for the benefit of both parties."

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Crave makes some good points.

OF COURSE he is not "trying to con" buyers into buying insurance.
He is operating under the bogus scheme that has been allowed to
be created. He is not abusing the system; he is simply operating
within a system designed to sell a product - insurance - that buyers
who use PayPal/Credit Card, have no need to purchase.

4SC uses the correct model. Everything is "insured," and that product
is included in the cost of S+H. The ala carte insurance is the source of
much controversy. Sellers need neither pay for it, nor try to collect it;
they can just INCLUDE it in the S+H. Controversy eliminated.

Signature confirmation and the rest of the bells and whistles are for
the benefit of SELLERS who accept PayPal. They offer absolutely no
value added to buyers. Sellers who do not use those bells and
whistles - and accept PayPal - are flying naked at their own peril,
and they will eventually crash and burn.

BUYERS - in a correct business model - pay for ALL of the expenses
of the seller. I have no problem with that; and neither should
anyone else. The seller is not in business to lose money.

But, trying to ala carte me for insurance - that ONLY benefits the seller
in a PayPal transaction - insults my smarts. Obviously, I would factor
the ala carte extras into my bid, or not bid; both sellers and buyers
have choices.

In about 60-days, EBAY will roll out a new scheme that will display
"total cost of delivered item." This will likely lead to ALL sellers
making insurance mandatory; if they do not, their listings will
be reported and removed. "Total Cost" will mean exactly what
it says, according to EBAY. No more "insurance optional," because
such listings would be misleading in the new search-results format.

cravetopps

//////But, trying to ala carte me for insurance - that ONLY benefits the seller
in a PayPal transaction - insults my smarts. Obviously, I would factor
the ala carte extras into my bid, or not bid; both sellers and buyers
have choices.////////

exactly right. When the seller claims that a buyer who does not accept insurance offered as "optional" for a paypal transaction, is accepting liability, this is BS. In this case, the seller has to abide by the paypal rules (TOS) i.e. they can't make up their own. In the non-paypal transactions, buyer beware.

I just make it (insurance) mandatory, don't hide the cost, and include it in the S&H now. That way, the buyer knows the maximum cost. If the purchase price exceeds the pre-calculated insurance cost, I eat it.