Some Morgan collectors might be interested in looking for coins struck from collapsed dies – produced by defective hardening of the dies and excessive striking pressure. (The die sank in the middle, thus producing coins with higher than normal relief and distorted fields.)
They will often have normal detail but the field will curve sharply upward around the portrait of Liberty. Rather than looking gently curved, the field will have a raised area adjacent to the portrait. The portrait will also be raised more than normal. This can also be found on Peace dollars, particularly 1922 and 1923.
PS: To messydesk---
There is a log book in NARA listing silver dollar production for every day, at each mint from 1921 through 1928. It does not list dies used. Let me know if you want to look at it sometime and I’ll give you the record group and entry number.
<< <i>Some Morgan collectors might be interested in looking for coins struck from collapsed dies – produced by defective hardening of the dies and excessive striking pressure. (The die sank in the middle, thus producing coins with higher than normal relief and distorted fields.)
They will often have normal detail but the field will curve sharply upward around the portrait of Liberty. Rather than looking gently curved, the field will have a raised area adjacent to the portrait. The portrait will also be raised more than normal. This can also be found on Peace dollars, particularly 1922 and 1923. >>
John Roberts at ANACS recently did a CW article about such a coin that he showed me in St. Louis. I think it was an 1883-O.
<< <i>PS: To messydesk---
There is a log book in NARA listing silver dollar production for every day, at each mint from 1921 through 1928. It does not list dies used. Let me know if you want to look at it sometime and I’ll give you the record group and entry number. >>
I'll have to keep that in mind. Are you aware of anything logging die production or shipment from Philly?
These should be in the engraving department records, virtually all of which are missing. About the only things that survive are occasional special reports, but I’ve seen almost nothing for 1921 or any of the Peace dollar series.
<< <i>I'm curious if the San Francisco Mint also carried out the proof die preparation for Ikes? >>
A lot of the plating and polishing of our proof dies is done by the Royal Canadian Mint. They have been chrome plating their dies since at least the mid 1950's and they nave a lot of experience with it. Whether or not they did the Ike Dies I can't say, but I am fairly sure they did do the SBA dies.
<< <i>I'm curious if the San Francisco Mint also carried out the proof die preparation for Ikes? >>
A lot of the plating and polishing of our proof dies is done by the Royal Canadian Mint. They have been chrome plating their dies since at least the mid 1950's and they nave a lot of experience with it. Whether or not they did the Ike Dies I can't say, but I am fairly sure they did do the SBA dies. >>
Writersblock, do you know if the Royal Canadian Mint polished proof dies to correct basining or other field defects before chrome plating (or was it the other way around)? Any specs on the thickness of the chrome?
It would seem logical that "die preparation" for proof strikes would be carried out prior to chrome plating but logic doesn't always work when it comes to mint operations, LOL!
Also, does anyone know if chrome plated proof dies were ever re-treated, that is, re-frosted and re-polished to rejuvenate their cameo-contrast?
According to the "Anual Report(s)......", Ike proof dies were chrome plated from 1973 on. Also, we know that harder die steel was employed for Ikes non-experimentally in the Fall of 1972, and, I think there was a specific comment in the '73 or '74 Report that chrome-plated harder-steel proof dies did not have to be "retreated" but no specific mention of Ike Proof dies in this context (anyway, I do not trust much of what our Mint reported publicly in the Ike era as there seems to have been a concerted and coordinated effort to cover up the chaos of the first few Ike years).
All of this may have something to do with a lowered-relief letter device on some rare '73-78 Ike proofs for which there is no obvious explanation and hence my keen interest. Rob
This is a GREAT thread and illustrates why I would hate to see CU separate classics and moderns into two different forums..... RobText
Modern dollars are like children - before you know it they'll be all grown up.....
Great to see so many collectors enjoying this thread!
To keep dollar production in perspective, here are my observations about major technology “break points.” Note, I have not examined archive files on the Ike dollar. These are in College Park MD and Philadelphia (City Center) if anyone cares to do the digging:
A. From 1878 through 1921 (Morgan) production methods seem to have been stable with the design intended to have a specific die radius and most working dies basined (brought to a consistent radius in the fields). Hubs and working dies were commonly hand retouched. Letters and date punched into master die (or mother die).
B. From Dec 1921 through 1935, Peace dollars were made from dies that did not have a consistent radius of curvature and thus were not basined as a whole. All of design was reduced from the model – no manual retouching except if absolutely necessary (as on 1921 reverse to remove sword). Also, direct reduction from 7-inch casts to the hub resulted in “softer” looking details.
C. From Sept 1963 to August 1965, newer technology applied to Peace dollar hubs and dies by Gilroy Roberts, and later, Frank Gasparo. These were incompatible with previous dies and leftovers from 1934-35-36 were destroyed. New edge die technology and reeding configuration.
D. From 1969 through end of Ike dollars, further application of new technology and changes necessary to strike coins from CuNi clad planchets.
Buffalo nickel collectors are quite familiar with this problem given the hardness of Cu/Ni alloy used for the planchets.
Also, don't forget that dies manufactured in the 20's were not properly annealed leading to loss of die detail in these dies and thus the coins they struck.
Thanks for a great post, definitely worth a few re-reads. I'm going to take be taking a closer look at my O-mint coins, especially.
Exclusively collecting Capped Bust Halves in VF to AU, especially rarity 3 and up. Joe G. Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
<< <i>Great to see so many collectors enjoying this thread!
To keep dollar production in perspective, here are my observations about major technology “break points.” Note, I have not examined archive files on the Ike dollar. These are in College Park MD and Philadelphia (City Center) if anyone cares to do the digging:
A. From 1878 through 1921 (Morgan) production methods seem to have been stable with the design intended to have a specific die radius and most working dies basined (brought to a consistent radius in the fields). Hubs and working dies were commonly hand retouched. Letters and date punched into master die (or mother die).
B. From Dec 1921 through 1935, Peace dollars were made from dies that did not have a consistent radius of curvature and thus were not basined as a whole. All of design was reduced from the model – no manual retouching except if absolutely necessary (as on 1921 reverse to remove sword). Also, direct reduction from 7-inch casts to the hub resulted in “softer” looking details.
C. From Sept 1963 to August 1965, newer technology applied to Peace dollar hubs and dies by Gilroy Roberts, and later, Frank Gasparo. These were incompatible with previous dies and leftovers from 1934-35-36 were destroyed. New edge die technology and reeding configuration.
D. From 1969 through end of Ike dollars, further application of new technology and changes necessary to strike coins from CuNi clad planchets. >>
RWB, more and more interesting! Ike dollars recapitulatred Morgan and Peace Dollar history in so many ways, perhaps exaggerated by the harder Ni-Cu planchets.
One major difference is the moderern era Mint Record destruction has made Ike research from original files almost impossible. I conversed extensively with the directors of the Philly NARA's and the College Park "Archives II" and spent a day at the down-town Philly NARA and found nothing but one complete set of the "Anual Report(s) of the Director of the Mint" (that made the trip worthwhile!), one file stuffed full of 1971 Philly mint shipping records, and one 1,100 page file from ARCHIVES II that is entirely public correspondance the mint received between 1969 and 1971 and the stilted, unyielding, and repetitive written responses by Mint officials.
My favorite letter from that file was a carefully hand printed request mailed in early 1971, addressed to Mrs. Nixon from a lady in the deep South who lovingly asked Pat Nixon to tell her husband that "I lady really deserve one of those new Eisenhower dollars", "from one woman to another I know you won't mind and the President will listen to you!".
The "Anual Report(s)..." for 1971 through 1974 at least paid lip service to minting specifics and problems but beginning with 1975 more and more turned into "profit reports" as if the mint was publishing a glossy stockholder's anual report instead of a detailed accounting of the minting experiences for that year.
Furthermore, having dug obsessively into Ike materials for the last year and a half, it is crystal clear that the Mint began laying down a smoke screen from the get-go about all the problems minting Ikes.
For example, with the direction of "The Ike Group", I'll be writing an article shortly that nails the TYPE 2 1972 Ike as a pairing of a common 1972 obverse with a 1972-S Busines Strike reverse, yet public statements by Gasparro on down lightly referred to a "proof" reverse getting on the 1972 (P) production line, so that pairing has been the accepted version ever since. Rob
Modern dollars are like children - before you know it they'll be all grown up.....
Rob, Glad you found something of interest in the Philadelphia Archives. As for College Park MD (Archives II), I presume you are referring to the correspondence file from the director’s office (RG 104, entry 328). There is, I recall, a second set of subject files that usually contain more of the internal reports and notes from mint staff. I will check my detailed box list this evening and see if there is anything that may be helpful to you. All of the Engraving Dept. and Coining Dept. and reports seem to be missing.
In addition to the destruction of documents under directors Brooks and Hackel, by the 1930s much of the substantive discussion was conducted by telephone. This begins in the 1910s with memos outlining both sides of phone conversations, then evolves to things like “based on our conversation about such-and-such,” then finally to simple instructions with all the discussion that preceded the decision omitted.
It is surprising, but there is probably more documentation on creating the Saint-Gaudens gold coins of 1907 than on any modern (post 1965) coin. (I have five thick binders of original letters and memos on the S-G project. The Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908 book has approximately 700 source citations, and they are only part of the total quantity of material.)
RWB, there is a second set of subject files, I think the curator said it was maybe 7 inches wide, but it covers all US coins, he thought. I had hoped to stop by on my way to Baltimore from VT to plow through it but didn't have time.
If you can find any indication that there is meat in that file on Ikes, I will get there eventually and go through it. The curator said he was too busy to do it without charging $$$'s and since The Ike Group paid $700 for a copy of the correspondence file we were not eager to buy a copy of a 7 inch file without a first-hand look first, LOL.....
My goodness! am I glad to have found you and thanks to this Forum!
Would you please send me an email so I can add you to my email address book? Rob
Modern dollars are like children - before you know it they'll be all grown up.....
Comments
They will often have normal detail but the field will curve sharply upward around the portrait of Liberty. Rather than looking gently curved, the field will have a raised area adjacent to the portrait. The portrait will also be raised more than normal. This can also be found on Peace dollars, particularly 1922 and 1923.
PS: To messydesk---
There is a log book in NARA listing silver dollar production for every day, at each mint from 1921 through 1928. It does not list dies used. Let me know if you want to look at it sometime and I’ll give you the record group and entry number.
<< <i>Some Morgan collectors might be interested in looking for coins struck from collapsed dies – produced by defective hardening of the dies and excessive striking pressure. (The die sank in the middle, thus producing coins with higher than normal relief and distorted fields.)
They will often have normal detail but the field will curve sharply upward around the portrait of Liberty. Rather than looking gently curved, the field will have a raised area adjacent to the portrait. The portrait will also be raised more than normal. This can also be found on Peace dollars, particularly 1922 and 1923. >>
John Roberts at ANACS recently did a CW article about such a coin that he showed me in St. Louis. I think it was an 1883-O.
<< <i>PS: To messydesk---
There is a log book in NARA listing silver dollar production for every day, at each mint from 1921 through 1928. It does not list dies used. Let me know if you want to look at it sometime and I’ll give you the record group and entry number. >>
I'll have to keep that in mind. Are you aware of anything logging die production or shipment from Philly?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
These should be in the engraving department records, virtually all of which are missing. About the only things that survive are occasional special reports, but I’ve seen almost nothing for 1921 or any of the Peace dollar series.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>I'm curious if the San Francisco Mint also carried out the proof die preparation for Ikes? >>
A lot of the plating and polishing of our proof dies is done by the Royal Canadian Mint. They have been chrome plating their dies since at least the mid 1950's and they nave a lot of experience with it. Whether or not they did the Ike Dies I can't say, but I am fairly sure they did do the SBA dies.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm curious if the San Francisco Mint also carried out the proof die preparation for Ikes? >>
A lot of the plating and polishing of our proof dies is done by the Royal Canadian Mint. They have been chrome plating their dies since at least the mid 1950's and they nave a lot of experience with it. Whether or not they did the Ike Dies I can't say, but I am fairly sure they did do the SBA dies. >>
Writersblock, do you know if the Royal Canadian Mint polished proof dies to correct basining or other field defects before chrome plating (or was it the other way around)? Any specs on the thickness of the chrome?
It would seem logical that "die preparation" for proof strikes would be carried out prior to chrome plating but logic doesn't always work when it comes to mint operations, LOL!
Also, does anyone know if chrome plated proof dies were ever re-treated, that is, re-frosted and re-polished to rejuvenate their cameo-contrast?
According to the "Anual Report(s)......", Ike proof dies were chrome plated from 1973 on. Also, we know that harder die steel was employed for Ikes non-experimentally in the Fall of 1972, and, I think there was a specific comment in the '73 or '74 Report that chrome-plated harder-steel proof dies did not have to be "retreated" but no specific mention of Ike Proof dies in this context (anyway, I do not trust much of what our Mint reported publicly in the Ike era as there seems to have been a concerted and coordinated effort to cover up the chaos of the first few Ike years).
All of this may have something to do with a lowered-relief letter device on some rare '73-78 Ike proofs for which there is no obvious explanation and hence my keen interest. Rob
This is a GREAT thread and illustrates why I would hate to see CU separate classics and moderns into two different forums.....
RobText
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
To keep dollar production in perspective, here are my observations about major technology “break points.” Note, I have not examined archive files on the Ike dollar. These are in College Park MD and Philadelphia (City Center) if anyone cares to do the digging:
A. From 1878 through 1921 (Morgan) production methods seem to have been stable with the design intended to have a specific die radius and most working dies basined (brought to a consistent radius in the fields). Hubs and working dies were commonly hand retouched. Letters and date punched into master die (or mother die).
B. From Dec 1921 through 1935, Peace dollars were made from dies that did not have a consistent radius of curvature and thus were not basined as a whole. All of design was reduced from the model – no manual retouching except if absolutely necessary (as on 1921 reverse to remove sword). Also, direct reduction from 7-inch casts to the hub resulted in “softer” looking details.
C. From Sept 1963 to August 1965, newer technology applied to Peace dollar hubs and dies by Gilroy Roberts, and later, Frank Gasparo. These were incompatible with previous dies and leftovers from 1934-35-36 were destroyed. New edge die technology and reeding configuration.
D. From 1969 through end of Ike dollars, further application of new technology and changes necessary to strike coins from CuNi clad planchets.
Buffalo nickel collectors are quite familiar with this problem given the hardness of Cu/Ni alloy used for the planchets.
Also, don't forget that dies manufactured in the 20's were not properly annealed leading to loss of die detail in these dies and thus the coins they struck.
Joe G.
Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
<< <i>Great to see so many collectors enjoying this thread!
To keep dollar production in perspective, here are my observations about major technology “break points.” Note, I have not examined archive files on the Ike dollar. These are in College Park MD and Philadelphia (City Center) if anyone cares to do the digging:
A. From 1878 through 1921 (Morgan) production methods seem to have been stable with the design intended to have a specific die radius and most working dies basined (brought to a consistent radius in the fields). Hubs and working dies were commonly hand retouched. Letters and date punched into master die (or mother die).
B. From Dec 1921 through 1935, Peace dollars were made from dies that did not have a consistent radius of curvature and thus were not basined as a whole. All of design was reduced from the model – no manual retouching except if absolutely necessary (as on 1921 reverse to remove sword). Also, direct reduction from 7-inch casts to the hub resulted in “softer” looking details.
C. From Sept 1963 to August 1965, newer technology applied to Peace dollar hubs and dies by Gilroy Roberts, and later, Frank Gasparo. These were incompatible with previous dies and leftovers from 1934-35-36 were destroyed. New edge die technology and reeding configuration.
D. From 1969 through end of Ike dollars, further application of new technology and changes necessary to strike coins from CuNi clad planchets. >>
RWB, more and more interesting! Ike dollars recapitulatred Morgan and Peace Dollar history in so many ways, perhaps exaggerated by the harder Ni-Cu planchets.
One major difference is the moderern era Mint Record destruction has made Ike research from original files almost impossible. I conversed extensively with the directors of the Philly NARA's and the College Park "Archives II" and spent a day at the down-town Philly NARA and found nothing but one complete set of the "Anual Report(s) of the Director of the Mint" (that made the trip worthwhile!), one file stuffed full of 1971 Philly mint shipping records, and one 1,100 page file from ARCHIVES II that is entirely public correspondance the mint received between 1969 and 1971 and the stilted, unyielding, and repetitive written responses by Mint officials.
My favorite letter from that file was a carefully hand printed request mailed in early 1971, addressed to Mrs. Nixon from a lady in the deep South who lovingly asked Pat Nixon to tell her husband that "I lady really deserve one of those new Eisenhower dollars", "from one woman to another I know you won't mind and the President will listen to you!".
The "Anual Report(s)..." for 1971 through 1974 at least paid lip service to minting specifics and problems but beginning with 1975 more and more turned into "profit reports" as if the mint was publishing a glossy stockholder's anual report instead of a detailed accounting of the minting experiences for that year.
Furthermore, having dug obsessively into Ike materials for the last year and a half, it is crystal clear that the Mint began laying down a smoke screen from the get-go about all the problems minting Ikes.
For example, with the direction of "The Ike Group", I'll be writing an article shortly that nails the TYPE 2 1972 Ike as a pairing of a common 1972 obverse with a 1972-S Busines Strike reverse, yet public statements by Gasparro on down lightly referred to a "proof" reverse getting on the 1972 (P) production line, so that pairing has been the accepted version ever since. Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
Glad you found something of interest in the Philadelphia Archives. As for College Park MD (Archives II), I presume you are referring to the correspondence file from the director’s office (RG 104, entry 328). There is, I recall, a second set of subject files that usually contain more of the internal reports and notes from mint staff. I will check my detailed box list this evening and see if there is anything that may be helpful to you. All of the Engraving Dept. and Coining Dept. and reports seem to be missing.
In addition to the destruction of documents under directors Brooks and Hackel, by the 1930s much of the substantive discussion was conducted by telephone. This begins in the 1910s with memos outlining both sides of phone conversations, then evolves to things like “based on our conversation about such-and-such,” then finally to simple instructions with all the discussion that preceded the decision omitted.
It is surprising, but there is probably more documentation on creating the Saint-Gaudens gold coins of 1907 than on any modern (post 1965) coin. (I have five thick binders of original letters and memos on the S-G project. The Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908 book has approximately 700 source citations, and they are only part of the total quantity of material.)
If you can find any indication that there is meat in that file on Ikes, I will get there eventually and go through it. The curator said he was too busy to do it without charging $$$'s and since The Ike Group paid $700 for a copy of the correspondence file we were not eager to buy a copy of a 7 inch file without a first-hand look first, LOL.....
My goodness! am I glad to have found you and thanks to this Forum!
Would you please send me an email so I can add you to my email address book? Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
Email sent to you.
RWB