<< <i>dallasactuary - The New York Giants players you are referring to where all elected by their cronies on the veterans committe.
I think the Hall of Fame selection is actually biased towards the St. Louis Cardinals. Look at all of their legendary players in the Hall:
Jake Beckely Jim Bottomley Roger Bresnahan Jesse Burkett Orlando Cepeda Frankie Frisch Burleigh Grimes Chick Hafey Jesse Haines Red Schoendinst Enos Slaughter >>
Well, fair's fair, and Beckley, Bottomley, Hafey, and Haines were selected by the same 1970-1977 VC you just said didn't count.
And Bresnahan, Burkett, Cepeda, and Grimes weren't really Cardinals; none of them played more than 3 years with the team.
Frisch and Schoendienst were true Redbirds but they're also truly deserving of the HOF all things considered, including their fielding and managerial records.
Out of your 11, I'll concede Slaughter - he was a very poor choice for the HOF. But I don't think one guy (especially one who played parts of six seasons for the Yankees - including one stellar World Series that probably helped his HOF chances) proves much of a St. Louis bias. Given even a fraction of the same bias that NY has, Torre and Simmons would already be in the Hall, along with Boyer and Bill White. At least, there's no way that ALL of them would still be on the outside looking in.
I'll grant you, though, that if Jim Rice ever makes the HOF that anybody from Boston who ever complains about NY bias will look awfully foolish.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
The Hall of Fame should not be for the very very good but should be reserved for the great.
The fact that some non-greats are in there should not mean that these mistakes should be repeated. >>
Davalilo, thank you for your sound advice re: my Mantle Registry set. I listened and upgraded my 52 Topps, now if I can just find a 7 or 8 51 Bowman. And I agree with your HOF comment.
dallasactuary - I no more think the Hall is biased towards the St. Louis Cardinals than you think Jim Rice deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.
My point is that many of the New York players AND St. Louis players are only in the Hall because of the reckless nature of their cronies Bill Terry and Frankie Frisch in the late 1960's and early to mid 1970's.
The only New York player who I think is in the Hall because he is from New York is Phil Rizzuto, and I do not think he was a horrendous selection.
<< <i>The only New York player who I think is in the Hall because he is from New York is Phil Rizzuto, and I do not think he was a horrendous selection. >>
I guess "horrendous" is in the eye of the beholder, but Rizzuto was IMO a worse pick than Mazeroski.
But as to Scooter being the ONLY one (outside of the VC's dark ages) to be in because he played for NY:
Tony Lazzeri: IF he was better than Dick McAuliffe it's not obvious to me Catfish Hunter: No if's about it, he's nowhere close to HOF level Herb Pennock: Ditto - a HOF joke Travis Jackson - possibly the worst player in the HOF and not selected until 1982 Burleigh Grimes - he's in for his many years on Brooklyn, not his few on St. Louis, and he clearly doesn't belong
While I will say that this thread has deepened my appreciation for just how much damage the Frisch/Terry VC did, the truly undeserving HOFers are not confined to the folks who got in that way. And of those that got in in other ways, the truly undeserving are still overrepresented by NY players.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
dallasactuary - In my opinion Maz is a Hall of Famer. He is the greatest defensive secondbaseman in history by a wide margin. I am not going to compare him to Ozzie because I realize Ozzie brings more to the table offensively but if Smith had Maz's offensive numbers I still think he would be a Hall of Famer.
Lazzeri was selected by the VC in 1991 - if there was a Yankee or New York bias on the committee at that time I do not see it. Hunter - I know your opinion on Hunter and will not debate the issue but I do think had he stayed with the A's and compiled the same numbers he would still be in the Hall Pennock - was selected by the writers in 1948 - I do not know what bias existed than towards the Yankees but the selection does seem odd Jackson - Most of the New York Giant bias was off the committee by the time he got selected in 1982, maybe they figured they had elected everbody else from the New York Giant teams they might as well add him. Grimes - selected in 1964 by the VC - do not see a New York bias on the committee at that time but I could be wrong
Just to add to the Terry/Frisch VC voting, it should be noted that a lot of their friends or writers who covered the Giants and Cardinals in the 1930's were also on the committee.
Comments
I think the Hall of Fame selection is actually biased towards the St. Louis Cardinals. Look at all of their legendary players in the Hall:
Jake Beckely
Jim Bottomley
Roger Bresnahan
Jesse Burkett
Orlando Cepeda
Frankie Frisch
Burleigh Grimes
Chick Hafey
Jesse Haines
Red Schoendinst
Enos Slaughter
<< <i>dallasactuary - The New York Giants players you are referring to where all elected by their cronies on the veterans committe.
I think the Hall of Fame selection is actually biased towards the St. Louis Cardinals. Look at all of their legendary players in the Hall:
Jake Beckely
Jim Bottomley
Roger Bresnahan
Jesse Burkett
Orlando Cepeda
Frankie Frisch
Burleigh Grimes
Chick Hafey
Jesse Haines
Red Schoendinst
Enos Slaughter >>
Well, fair's fair, and Beckley, Bottomley, Hafey, and Haines were selected by the same 1970-1977 VC you just said didn't count.
And Bresnahan, Burkett, Cepeda, and Grimes weren't really Cardinals; none of them played more than 3 years with the team.
Frisch and Schoendienst were true Redbirds but they're also truly deserving of the HOF all things considered, including their fielding and managerial records.
Out of your 11, I'll concede Slaughter - he was a very poor choice for the HOF. But I don't think one guy (especially one who played parts of
six seasons for the Yankees - including one stellar World Series that probably helped his HOF chances) proves much of a St. Louis bias. Given even a fraction of the same bias that NY has, Torre and Simmons would already be in the Hall, along with Boyer and Bill White. At least, there's no way that ALL of them would still be on the outside looking in.
I'll grant you, though, that if Jim Rice ever makes the HOF that anybody from Boston who ever complains about NY bias will look awfully foolish.
<< <i>None.
The Hall of Fame should not be for the very very good but should be reserved for the great.
The fact that some non-greats are in there should not mean that these mistakes should be repeated. >>
Davalilo, thank you for your sound advice re: my Mantle Registry set. I listened and upgraded my 52 Topps, now if I can just find a 7 or 8 51 Bowman. And I agree with your HOF comment.
My point is that many of the New York players AND St. Louis players are only in the Hall because of the reckless nature of their cronies Bill Terry and Frankie Frisch in the late 1960's and early to mid 1970's.
The only New York player who I think is in the Hall because he is from New York is Phil Rizzuto, and I do not think he was a horrendous selection.
You're welcome. Simply a spectacular Mantle set that you have and one that any collector would admire.
Good luck on the 51 Bowman Mantle upgrade.
Jim
<< <i>The only New York player who I think is in the Hall because he is from New York is Phil Rizzuto, and I do not think he was a horrendous selection. >>
I guess "horrendous" is in the eye of the beholder, but Rizzuto was IMO a worse pick than Mazeroski.
But as to Scooter being the ONLY one (outside of the VC's dark ages) to be in because he played for NY:
Tony Lazzeri: IF he was better than Dick McAuliffe it's not obvious to me
Catfish Hunter: No if's about it, he's nowhere close to HOF level
Herb Pennock: Ditto - a HOF joke
Travis Jackson - possibly the worst player in the HOF and not selected until 1982
Burleigh Grimes - he's in for his many years on Brooklyn, not his few on St. Louis, and he clearly doesn't belong
While I will say that this thread has deepened my appreciation for just how much damage the Frisch/Terry VC did, the truly undeserving HOFers are not confined to the folks who got in that way. And of those that got in in other ways, the truly undeserving are still overrepresented by NY players.
Lazzeri was selected by the VC in 1991 - if there was a Yankee or New York bias on the committee at that time I do not see it.
Hunter - I know your opinion on Hunter and will not debate the issue but I do think had he stayed with the A's and compiled the same numbers he would still be in the Hall
Pennock - was selected by the writers in 1948 - I do not know what bias existed than towards the Yankees but the selection does seem odd
Jackson - Most of the New York Giant bias was off the committee by the time he got selected in 1982, maybe they figured they had elected everbody else from the New York Giant teams they might as well add him.
Grimes - selected in 1964 by the VC - do not see a New York bias on the committee at that time but I could be wrong
Just to add to the Terry/Frisch VC voting, it should be noted that a lot of their friends or writers who covered the Giants and Cardinals in the 1930's were also on the committee.