"Other" factors involved with grading?

frankhardy

I would just like to get some sort of idea of how many of you think that "other" factors are involved in the final grade of a card other than the card itself.

When I first started with PSA a few years ago, I thought that only the "big boys" got the high grades. Then, I started to understand a lot more about grading and learned what to look for and I started pulling a few 10's myself. The notion of the "big boys" soon when away. Granted, the 10's that I got were more modern. The oldest (I think) PSA 10 that I have ever gotten was a 1983 Fleer Sandberg. I did get a 1967 Topps PSA 9 a few years ago. Now, with my last couple of submissions, it's been different.

I don't send in a large amount of cards to PSA in a years time (probably anywhere from 20 to 50 per year), so I'm definitely not a bulk submitter. I know we have all gotten grades on cards that we disagree with, but when you send in a stack of perfectly centered, pack fresh, razor sharp (even under magnification) 1961 Topps cards and you don't get one single, soliltary 9 out of it, it kind of make you wonder. I makes you either wonder about the process or it makes you doubt yourself. When I looked these cards (especially a couple of them), I thought, "There is not one single way to improve this card." I was so sure, that I spend $13 per card to get them graded.

Again, I know we have all disagreed at some point with our grades. Also, I don't want to sound like I'm whining. I just wanted to have a intellegent discussion about whether or not "other" factors are involved with grading other than the card. Also, just because I am writing this, doesn't mean that I feel this way. It does, however, make me wonder a little bit. The "other" factor that I am talking about mainly is a submitter that submits thousands of cards per year vs me who only submits 20 to 50 per year. Again, I am not accusing PSA of any wrong doing, it just makes me wonder if huge dealer that submits thousands of cards per year would not have gotten 9's or even 10's on some of those cards that I sent in. If this discussion has any life when I get my cards (probably Friday or Saturday), I will post some very high res scans.

Anybody else think this way or am I by myself on this one?

Morgoth

I don't think bulk submitters get better grades due to who they are it's just that they have so many more chances of getting cards in 9 holders than me or you. Grading is subjective and if you see all the threads about cards getting bumps up and down it shows how subjective it really is (93 refractors I am looking at you). If you take the same lot of cards you just sent in and cracked them all out and resubmitted I can almost guarantee you that at least 10-20% will come back with a different grade (maybe good, maybe bad). The only thing you can accuse PSA of is being inconsistent to the point that they are counting on people having to crack and resubmit to get the highest grade possible thus providing them more sales.

PSARich

Even though there are standards (a scoring reubric if you will) for grading that describe characteristics of a 9, a 7, a 5, etc., grading is still a subjective process. I would guess that I have sent in well over a thousand cards to PSA and like everyone else, I have been disappointed by some grades and surprisingly happy about some others. I have, over the last couple years, cracked some slabs (about 25) with cards that I thopught deserved higher grades and resubmitted. The fact that about 50% came back with the grade that I thought they deserved tells me that on any given day a "borderline" card can be an 8 or a 9. I have also had a few that came back below the original grade, but close to half returned at the same grade that they were previously given. When I get back a card that grades considerably lower than I thought, almost always I find some type of surface problem (wrinkle, scratch, indentation) that I missed earlier. If you are certain that some cards deserve higher grades, crack open a few of the best and resubmit. If they come back the same as their previous grade, then you probably need to educate yourself a little more on interpreting grading standards. If you get the grade you expected, give yourself an "A" for perseverance.

frankhardy

I see what you are saying. I guess if I were going to keep these specific cards, I would wait and resubmit. However, these cards go into a set that I am selling in the near future, so there is not time for that.

I too, have resubmitted and got higher grades on a couple of occassions. As a matter of fact, I think I am 2 for 2 on that.

ToppsCo1lector

In my opinion, the "other" factors include the law of average as well as bulk submitters having better trained eyes. Truth is, I don't submit any cards for grading. But, if a person on average sends in 500-1000 cards per submission I honestly believe that the person has a much more vast amount to pick the very best from. Add to that, grading is subjective since it is done by people. Now, according to PSA policy a grade is basically looked at by three graders before verification. There will be not so much mistakes or intentional errors in the process, but the human factor comes into play.

That being said, like I said I don't submit. Nearly all of my graded cards have come from either online or through trades. Usually just purchased online, because most of what I collect is not "the norm" and I don't ever ever ever buy whats hot. I collect Mark Mulder rookies for example, and I'm attempting a Rookie Registry of all PSA 10s. Since he's been hurt(and essentially since he went to the Cards) the prices have bottomed out. At one point PSA 10s of the Bowman Chromes/Topps Traded Chromes and Bowmans Best were running over 120. I bought all three, no more than 9 dollars a pop. That's cheaper than me than purchasing.

stown

The graders grade based on the card, not the submitter.

Sincerely,

DBH

frankhardy

You are not referring to Da Big Hurt are ya?

gregmo32

I would say, in general, that some of PSA's graders are better at applying the PSA standards to cards than others.
My own personal submissions (which have been several thousand at least) have been undergraded and overgraded depending on the occasion. My hunch is it has more to do with WHO is doing the grading as opposed to who is doing the submitting. This is still a problem, and one that should be addressed, but OVERALL, corporately, I don't think PSA has an unspoken policy to reward large submitters.

But it doesn't make me feel better when I get back a four hundred card submission that I feel is largely undergraded. Professionals should get it right almost all of the time.

jradke4

It seems to me that they grade modern cards on a different standard then they grade vintage cards. By this I mean comparing PSA 5 and 6's between the two. They tend to be harsher on the modern cards for minor flaws then they are on vintage for overall look. Now this observation was very limited in samples.

But I agree the biggest issue is the grader to grader application of the standard. It seems that some value certain parts of the standards more than others. ie corner wear vs centering. It also seems that some grade harshly on minor problems that dont distract from the overall visual appearance of the card. I would rather have a card that has nice corners and centering with a minor surface wrinkle that is hidden, then a card with no wrinkles but touched corners. Yet they both still might be graded a 5. I think issues like surface wrinkles should not weigh as high as corner wear as the collector has more control over most corner issues than with surface wrinkles.

Morgoth

Wrinkles/bubbles etc are going to be a bigger issue as we get further along with grading. There are people on both sides of how much the wrinkles should affect the value, I know the guys at GAI think that was their biggest mistake at PSA was knocking those cards down so much. There has been an issue with 55 Bowmans with wrinkles finding their way into high grade GAI holders so maybe they are ones to use for these type of cards.

Stone193

IMO, they grade the card.

Unless an ex-employee/grader is willing to say something contrary to that premise.

The other prevailing factor - since assigning a grade has some subjectivity - graders will contradict themselves as well as different graders seeing something differently on a given day.

I guarantee if one were to do a blind study - they would find ALL graders will potentially contradict their own assigned grade to a card - especially cards in grades less than 8.

That's my take.
mike

CDsNuts

What most of us fail to realize are the inherent problems with a 10 point scale. The difference between a high end 8 and a low end 8 is that on any given day, the card can be bumped up to a 9 or down to a 7. When I predict my grades, I will say a card is an 8.8, meaning I think it has a 20% chance of pulling a 9, but is likely an 8. There is simply too much of a gray area to lump cards into a 10 point scale- a card can have a slightly touched corner, a heavily touched corner, a dinged corner, a rounded corner, a sharp corner, etc... and that's just the one corner. Including corners, edges, centering, surface, register, the back of the card, printing marks, color, comparison to how the cards are typically made (OPC for instance), there are so many factors in grading and so many things that can be wrong with a card, it seems impossible to give most cards an accurate appraisal with only 10 designations. Then throw qualifiers into the mix and it complicates things even more. "Why is this card a 7?" "It's off center." "Why is this card a 9 OC?" "It's off center." "Huh?"

To give you an example, this would be like taking a 50 question test in school, you get the paper back and the teacher puts a "C" on it, without telling you what you got wrong. Well is it a high C or a low C? Was I close to a B? More info please.

Let the record show, I'm not bashing PSA. Grading is a necessary part of the hobby and PSA is the industry leader for a reason. I just think there are problems with the system they use, and savvy dealers can take advantage of that. If I give a card an 8.8 (20% chance at a 9), I will have to submit the card an average of 5 times to get the 9. If a 9 will bring increase the sale price by more than $30 over an 8, then my expected value of resubmitting is positive. It's a numbers game, and those who can accurately grade will end up making money by cracking and resubmitting.

Lee

storm888

"...I don't think PSA has an unspoken policy to reward large submitters......
...Professionals should get it right almost all of the time. "

/////////////////////////////////////////

basestealer

I haven't personally seen a gem mint card in an 8 holder (with PSA). A few cards I felt might be 9's in 8 holders, sure, and a few cards I felt were overgraded by one grade at most. I have seen numerous people say "I can't figure out why it didn't get a 10" but I could tell why after looking at it. I think maybe they could too, but didn't think that aspect of the card mattered. There's also a grading fog I don't know if anyone's experienced, sifting through thousands of commons cherrypicking the best ones, after a couple hours of this I get a little off, and I might start putting 7's in a pile which was originally strict mint. So you have to take a break and take a look at holdered 9 and regain perspective. At least, that's how it is for me.

CDsNuts

That's funny base, because I get in that fog too but I end up eliminating cards for small flaws. After looking at hundreds from the same set, small things start jumping out at me more than they did when I first started looking. Either way, it's inconsistent to grade that way so you're probably right about regaining perspective.

Lee

Morgoth

I actually get nervous sifting through tons of cards if I start rejecting everything at first. I think I am being too hard and start to let stuff go. I don't want to leave the table with nothing after looking at 1000's of cards do I? I hate it when I get home and look at them again and see all the flaws.

NickM

If only one grader looks at a card, the chances for inconsistent results on submissions increase greatly.

Nick

PSARich

I mostly submit 50's - 60's baseball and really evaluate them well with a magifier and lighting before submission. I have had pretty good success in predicting grades in much the same way as CDsNuts. I take a risk on some but not on others, depending on their value. A couple years ago I sent in a batch of mid-late 1960's cards. I had six of the 1968's down as sure 9's, without a doubt. The best gloss I had ever seen, centered, sharp corners and registration. They came back with three 9's and three 8's. I evaluated the 8's over and over again in the holders and could not find a flaw, so I cracked them out and resubmitted with my next order. They come back two 10's and a 9. Now I never predict that a card will get a 10, especially pre-1970's material. I don't have the expertise to determine the difference between a really nice 9 and a 10. But my point is that on one day the grader saw something on those three cards they kept him from giving them a 9 and the next time the grader saw some outstanding characteristics that he/she felt warrented a couple 10's. With the same order I remember resubmitting a couple of sweet 1967 8's and they came back a 7 and an 8 again. Last month I resubmitted a 1961 Orioles Team card that had earlier received an 8. It was beautiful and the value of an 8 compared to a 9 is $100+, so I took a chance and tried again...and got a 9. Those are exceptions to what I think overall is a pretty consistant grading record that PSA has established. As has been mentioned several times in this thread, the human element makes the grading process somewhat subjective. But I think PSA has enough checks and balances to minimize its impact overall. I never have felt that because I was not a big time submiter that my cards were graded any differently than the big guys. But I do feel that I have gained enough expertise to feel confident in trying a resubmission every now and then. You just have to decide if the $6 gamble is worth it.

BobS

PSA Rich -

Great post, but unfortunately I think it sums up everything that I can't stand about grading in general. Your example from an 8 to a 9 being $100 is so wrong it drives me crazy. One day it's an 8, next day it's a 9, today it's worth $10, tomorrow it's worth $100. Good Grief!!!!!!

I know it's been posted on here a million times, but come on people, when did we start collecting plastic instead of cards?

Stone193

<< <i>I know it's been posted on here a million times, but come on people, when did we start collecting plastic instead of cards? >>

Bob

I hear ya.

Personally? I buy the card not the holder but when?

The day I realized some people overgrade, some people recolor, some people trim and some people counterfeit.

It's just plain easier to buy cards thru the mail graded - life's short and this makes it much more enjoyable for me.

mike

frankhardy

<< <i>I haven't personally seen a gem mint card in an 8 holder (with PSA). A few cards I felt might be 9's in 8 holders, sure, and a few cards I felt were overgraded by one grade at most. I have seen numerous people say "I can't figure out why it didn't get a 10" but I could tell why after looking at it. I think maybe they could too, but didn't think that aspect of the card mattered. There's also a grading fog I don't know if anyone's experienced, sifting through thousands of commons cherrypicking the best ones, after a couple hours of this I get a little off, and I might start putting 7's in a pile which was originally strict mint. So you have to take a break and take a look at holdered 9 and regain perspective. At least, that's how it is for me. >>




I agree about weeding out cards. I never send in a card without examining it several times over a few days. That's why I'm so shocked at my grades on a few.

I too agree with buying the card rather than the holder. However, that's not the case when you are trying to sell to those people that DO buy the holder. That is my case. My intentions were to sell these. In other words, if someone wanted some perfectly centered, factory fresh cards for a set, then those cards I sent in would be perfect. But if someone is putting together a PSA 9 or 10 set, then my cards won't work. Believe me, if you saw these cards, you would understand.

CDsNuts

Bob, that's why a 100 point grading system would make the most sense. A PSA 89 would bring slightly less than a PSA 90, but a low end PSA 9 brings 1000% more than a high end PSA 8. That's why I grade my cards on a 100 point scale in order to help me decide which cards should be resubmitted. It only makes sense financially, and the market hasn't corrected this error as of yet.

Grading itself is a necessity because of the things stone pointed out- there are too many dishonest people out there and you can't tell a lot from an ebay scan. At least when we bid on a PSA 8 we have an idea of what the card will look like. Sometimes we are a little disappointed or pleasantly surprised, but at least we have a range of what to expect.

And while SGC employees a similar scale to what I'm suggesting, cards just don't command as much in an SGC slab usually (particularly modern). This might have to do with their wierd incremental system- it goes from 70 to 80 to 84 to 86 to 88 to 92 to 96. Seems a bit arbitrary. Also, why would a card be an 84 and a 7 at the same time? Isn't this confusing? Also, PSA has completely blown them away in terms of marketing and catering to industry demand (pack grading, aggressive monthly specials, the registry, business loans, etc...). I think if PSA started at a 100 pt system, you would be seeing nearly as many resubmissions, but that would cost PSA a ton of money. Too late to fix it now anyway- the market has embraced the 10 point system for whatever reason.

Lee

frankhardy

One answer - set registry! It would be a nightmare if there was anything but a 10 point system.

Ahmanfan

I think the system would be more confusing if it were a 100 point system, with grades of 88, 89, etc
you know how now a 8 can be a 9 on a different day, or a 7 on the previous day? multiply that problem times 10 if we had a true 100 point scale. the graders can't all be on the same page as to what makes an 8 a 9, they wont be nearly on the same page as to what makes an 88 a 89 or a 88 an 85. that would get reeeeeediculous.
John

Ahmanfan

on that same note, maybe it would make more sense to have a 5 point scale, good/fair/poor, vg to vg/ex, ex to exmt, nm to nm/m, and mint to gem mint. I think the graders would be more consistent if this were the case.
JOhn

CDsNuts

John, I think you might be missing my point. Grading will always be inherently inconsistent due to the fact that people are involved. There's nothing we can do about that.

The effect of a 100 point system would be making it not worthwhile to crack and resubmit cards in order to reach higher grades because the range of grades for a card is minimized in terms of percentage of the overall grading scale. Right now, if a card jumps from an 8 to a 9, it has improved it's grade by 10% (1 grade out of 10), and will command 1000% more in a 9 slab. If an 88 gets cracked and resubmitted and comes back a 90, it has improved it's grade by 2% (2 grades out of 100), and the jump in value will be much less. This will fix the loophole that enables people to crack and resubmit in order to gain large profits. Would you resubmit a card that gets an 84 because you think it should be an 87? Probably not.

Increments of 5 will also do this, but to a lesser degree.

Lee

fandango

PSA Grades the card to the best of their HUMAN Ability....Grading is essentially an opinion, but when the Companies reputation is solid, that opinion is worth a lot...there are cards that can be a PSA 8 on one day and PSA 9 on another...eventually the market will show that these two grades are very similar and the prices will reflect this...

But, a PSA 10, on the other hand, is an immaculate card, distancing itself from a PSA 9 (and 8)....the PSA 10's are the cards that will (and do) show higher, sometimes astronomical values, simply because THERE ARE NON HIGHER... it is the pinnacle!!
A PSA 9 and and 8 are high end cards, but they are not PSA 10's

BobS

Fandago -

I do not agree that eventually te market will adjust and prices for 8's and 9's will be very similar. Just won't happen.

And for 10's, people are just buying the holder and not the card. Send in 100-9's for re-grading and what do you expect in return? Likewise, send in 100-10's and see what comes back. I guess I'm a little old school but a mint card is a mint card. There is no gem-mint. Especially when the solid reputation grading company can't tell the difference, as illustrated by the pop and re-submit practices.

Hey, I'm not bashing PSA, or really grading in general. There needs to be some sort of authentication service in our hobby. I'm just bashing the world in general for buying into the "numerical grade" system and driving prices based upon someones opinion on any given day.

Cheers!!

gregmo32

An underlying question I have, which I seem to have noticed among others, is this:

Do we really believe more than one grader is looking at our cards, especially bulk submissions of low dollar cards?

cohocorp

<< <i>Fandago -

I do not agree that eventually te market will adjust and prices for 8's and 9's will be very similar. Just won't happen.

And for 10's, people are just buying the holder and not the card. Send in 100-9's for re-grading and what do you expect in return? Likewise, send in 100-10's and see what comes back. I guess I'm a little old school but a mint card is a mint card. There is no gem-mint. Especially when the solid reputation grading company can't tell the difference, as illustrated by the pop and re-submit practices.

Hey, I'm not bashing PSA, or really grading in general. There needs to be some sort of authentication service in our hobby. I'm just bashing the world in general for buying into the "numerical grade" system and driving prices based upon someones opinion on any given day.

Cheers!! >>



i agree with bob entirely.

PSARich

When it comes to vintage cards, three things have driven the prices over the last decade (besides scarcity). 1) Grading, 2) Ebay, and 3) auctions, and you could even make an argument for the Set Registry. Grading has made cards easier to buy and sell. There is confidence that you know what you are buying because of third party grading and although you may disagree with a grade sometimes, at least you are fairly certain you will get what you paid for. Ebay has made this process of buying and selling easier and available to almost anyone. However, why would I put a raw NM-Mint 1959 Kaline, for example, up for auction when I could grade it and assumming It got an 8, receive bids 5-10 times higher. And finally, auction houses have also become so much more available to collectors than ever due to the internet, technology, and beautiful catalogs that almost anyone can get upon request. I am with BobS all the way in terms that a true collector knows that a mint card is a mint card regardless of who graded it on this day or that, and that variance from day to day can drive the value of the card, even the card hasn't changed. And if that is all you need to satisfy your collecting appitite and love of cards, that's great. I have two collections for each year from 1956-1975, one is in ungraded Ex-Mint to NM-Mint condition in Card Saver II's and the other collection is PSA 9's with some 7's/8's of HOFers. I thoroughly enjoy viewing them all. But, when it comes time to sell, it makes sense to me that any vintage card of value will be worth more in a PSA holder than not. So we may all agree with philosophy to buy the card not the holder, but in reality many of us buy the card in the holder, just to provide some peace of mind.

Uncbob

<< <i>PSA Rich -

Great post, but unfortunately I think it sums up everything that I can't stand about grading in general. Your example from an 8 to a 9 being $100 is so wrong it drives me crazy. One day it's an 8, next day it's a 9, today it's worth $10, tomorrow it's worth $100. Good Grief!!!!!!

I know it's been posted on here a million times, but come on people, when did we start collecting plastic instead of cards? >>


Exactly

If there is a problem blame the buyers who are willing to pay extra because the holder says 9 instead of 8 etc rather than on their perception of the appearance of the card itself

You really are paying for the opinion of some other person who graded the card --He is not infused with some divine power and as a serious collector you should be able to have your own standards

Now if your are a speculator then you are at the mercy of Joe Grader

Stone193

Before PSA, SGC, GAI and Beckett...



<< <i>Mr Mint said: numerical grading of BB cards will artificially and unfairly (to both buyer and seller) inflate the prices of top-quality cards. If you buy a numerically graded card, you'll pay for the grading, and chances are you'll overpay for the card. >>



At the time, IMO, this was a very accurate assessment.

But, since then Rosen, like others, have bought into the grading world.

As I said before - since a large amount of buying is now done thru the mail - graded is just plain easier all the way around - especially on the nerves.

There's just too much counterfeiting, altering and overgrading of raw cards.

Now, if ya gonna buy from reputable dealers or in person - there's no substitute for knowledge and the personal acquisition of cards.

storm888

MANY folks would have never brought their money back
into cards, if not for PSA.

storm888

""Do we really believe more than one grader is looking at our cards,
especially bulk submissions of low dollar cards? "

///////////////////////////////////////

Yup.

There is no motive for PSA to mislead members on that issue.

If it were not true, they would have been ratted-out long before now.