Removing a coin from a PCGS slab to regrade VS regrade in holder.

LincolnScents

Hypothetically speaking, have any of you removed coins from old PCGS slabs to have them regraded?
1. Did you first try to regrade in the slab and was the result less than optimal.
2. Did you get a better grade raw?
3. Do you think the practice is necessary to absolve PCGS from admitting an incorrect grade?
4. Are you equally likely to get the upgrade in raw form as in regrade in capsule form?
I'm just curious.
Thanks

DennisH

Scott:

I would never remove a coin from a PCGS holder and send it in for regrade; I would always send it in the holder. If you break it out and send it raw, there is no guarantee it won't come back lower... or be bodybagged. If you send it in the holder, you are guaranteed it won't come back lower.

Yes, I have had good results getting coins to upgrade; my guess is about 25% over the years (but keep in mind that I only send in coins I think are really special and nice. Therefore, a 25% success means that a bunch of coins I think could/should grade higher don't make it.)

ellewood

I'm on the opposite side of the fence as DennisH. I actually think that you have a better shot at upgrading if you crack the coin out and send it in raw. I'm sure this has been debated over a million times on these boards. I just cracked a $2K coin and sent it back in raw. If they assign me a lower grade than what it was, then so be it. I'll resubmit it again. I know in my heart what grade this coin deserves and I think PCGS is going to get it right...they usually do. I truly think my coin is a "liner" coin and it could go either way.

For some reason, I have always had the following vision in my head...a grader is sitting there looking at a coin in a slab (for regrade or Presidential Review), he/she could very well be thinking "Hey, we graded this MSXX before, there has got to be something very convincing here to lead me to believe that we made a mistake and the coin should get a higher grade".

Sure, leaving it in the slab for regrade is a SAFE bet, but one would think that your chances are BETTER if it goes in raw and the grader is not aware that the coin has ever been submitted to PCGS and was assigned a grade. Again, that's my opinion and I know others around here will differ. Just my one cent.

LincolnScents

My logical side agrees with Dennis, But ellwood speaks volumes of why I posted the question. I've sent two in the holder and they stood up. I am considering sending the same two plus a new one in raw state and hope for the best. It will still be a few weeks before I get the submission together though.

LincolnsRule

The king of Lincoln upgrades, Andy of Angel Dees, told me he always cracks the coin out. I do too, of course I've now had an ms67 downgraded to ms64!

JustMakesCents

Bought a 65RD 09SVDB in Orlando that had been recently graded. Cracked it and had it go 66RD. No way that upgrades in the holder, IMO.

ellewood

Bought a 65RD 09SVDB in Orlando that had been recently graded. Cracked it and had it go 66RD. No way that upgrades in the holder, IMO.

My point EXACTLY.

LR,

Where ya been man? I hardly ever see you post anymore??? Too busy trying to find all those top pop coins?

slugfootball

IMHO there is No question, Crack them out!!

I have only had a couple of coins upgrade in a PCGS holder, and that was
about 3, or 4 years ago. Since then I have been shut out! (about 0 for 30)

I have had the same Ike graded MS63, Quest color (body bag), MS65, MS63, MS66.
How does this happen? Many other Ike's with three different grades

There is No question in my mind PCGS enjoys the multi submissions, But a MS63 to a MS66?

Slugfootball

LincolnScents

ADDENDUM : if I submitt a bunch of raw coins for economy.....
1. Do you think my grades would be better if submitted at standard rate?
2. Do you think individual coins get better grades?
3. Do you think a $100 submission fee buys you more benefit of the doubt?

DennisH

Having been down every grading fee road up to $100 each, I can answer with firm conviction (at least in my own mind):

No
No
No

I do believe, however, that the order of the coins in the submission can have an impact. (I almost always arrange mine from worst to best, unless there's one or two that I think are undergraded; then I put them more toward the back so the preceding coins will hopefully make them look 'better'.)

clackamas

I just had 9 out of 15 coins upgrade in the holder. The other 6 are going back again, dang it I know I am right.

mrcommem

PCGS cracks the coin out of the holder before they grade it. It doesn't make sense to crack the coin out and send it in for grading and risk the chance of the coin downgrading. I have had very good results in coin upgrading being sent in the holder.

roadrunner

If you can afford the occasional no grade (AT, cleaned or altered surfaces) then by all means crack first. There are lots of mistakes in earlier holders. What PCGS and NGC didn't catch on played with coins in earlier years, they'll catch the next time it comes through (following years of sitting).

Worst that can happen from sending it back in the holder is that you'll have to try again. You can always crack it out. A lot depends on the downside to upside ratio for each specific coin and grade.

roadrunner

LincolnScents

I just finished my bulk submission of 50 coins. All of them are raw. Four of them are cracked out of holders. One is cracked out of a PCGS and the others are NGC and other "lesser" names. The PCGS is an OGH with an MS64RD grade. I strongly believe it is an MS65. I usually do not have a "strong" opinion. I'm new at the grading aspect of coin collecting. The others that I have that I am expecting to regrade in the future will sit idle for a while. When I get the grades back on this submission, I will decide if I am seeing the grade well enough to resubmit. From what I am reading, I need more luck than grading skills. Thank you all for your feedback and encouraging words. I feel like a kid again - finding the next "hard to find" coin. When I completed my set in a Dansco album , I was dissapointed that the trek was over. I have been kicking butt over the past three years with the graded coins and I'm only half way to a complete set. In addition to luck, I need strength and fortitude (not to mention the money)!
Scott

rcmlgm89

I just received 12 coins back from PCGS, 4 crossovers and 8 in older holders (free with coupon).
Most were close, so I was happy with a 25% ratio . . . but the good news was that the three
that did go made it all woth the trip.

1920S Mercury MS62FB went to MS63FB,

NGC MS62 1898O Barber dime crossed and is now in my registry mint set,

and a very 1870 nickel upgraded to MS64.

The only one I really had an issue with was a 1907 Indian MS64RB that is full red but could not
get them to upgrade and not worth the money to crack it out and try again.
Anyway, I will continue to send coins in the holder and be happy with 25% or better.
Ron

RBinTex

Supposedly, graders don't know the original grade in a regrade submission - thus the loss of an OGH in this process (only in a variety review or designation review do they know the original grade - albeit, for all practical purposes unimportant in the variety review).

LincolnScents

"SUPPOSEDLY" they don't know the original grade? Do they crack it out of the holder before it gets graded? I am under the opinion that they review the coin in the holder and return it to you ungraded if it is not worthy of the upgrade. Now, I'm confused. Anyone with cred have info on how the regrade/crossover process works?

CarsonCityGold

If you send in coins for regrade they will NOT be returned in the same holder whether they upgrade or not. They are guaranteed not to be downgraded, but will be put in a new holder.

LincolnScents

Who removes it from the holder? Is the grader aware of the grade?

sonofagunk

This always confused me. Shouldn't they HAVE to downgrade it? Obviously it was a "mistake" that they gave it the higher grade and now they have the chance to fix this "mistake".

Isn't the PCGS holder a guarantee of a grade? If they know that there is a mistake and they keep it in the old holder then what good is the PCGS grade in the first place?

In the future someone else will over pay and PCGS will have knowingly helped someone defrauded someone else (helping someone sell something as something that it is not is fraud, isn't it?)


-sog

LincolnScents

I like the way you think. My take is that while this is not an exact science, it is the best we have to date. That being said, I like the other peoples advice... look before you buy! Now, when I buy a coin, I by the coin, not the holder. I hope someday to be good enough at this to find some of their undergraded coins at a bargain. Wish me luck!

LincolnScents

3 1998-D MS 68
2 1990 MS 67
2 2006-D MS 67
3 damaged
1 not genuine
3 questionable color
of 50 coins, the lot was paid for by these coins. Not great, but no loss
BTW the crack outs : PCGS same grade, non pcgs were the body bags. 10 crack outs, 7 body bags.

sweetwilliet

Well, it's been said above, but I leave it in the holder for a regrade. You are guaranteed not to be downgraded. The coin is cracked out and the graders do not know the original grade. This is a no-lose situation, as opposed to cracking it out raw and sending it in. Where else in life is there a no-lose situation (ok, you lose your money)? You do give up the old green holder, rattler, whatever it was sent in, but unless you collect those, it doesn't matter too much.

As for the downgrade comments above, PCGS has the grade guarantee and if you think that a coin is overgraded, you can submit via that service. Everyone knows grading is subjective, so if you sent a coin in a 65 holder in, they re-grade it 64, I don't think it's misrepresenting the coin to keep it in a 65 holder (that was their legitimate opinion the first time around), as if you sent it in again, you might get a 65 or 66. After all, if you could be downgraded, that would really hurt business for that service (translation: smart business move not downgrading).

foxxze

" The coin is cracked out and the graders do not know the original grade. "

i BELIEVE THIS STATEMENT IS FALSE - the orig. grade is used in the new consensus grade ;and I believe the grader need only check the computer to cheat and see what the coin was graded in the first place ...

sweetwilliet

From homerunhall himself:

We do not want the graders to know a coin is a regrade. We want a fresh look at your coins and you should too.

Second, it is harder to grade a coin thru a holder. So for our own holders we crack the coin out.

We can't and won't leave the coins in holders...it would also be deceptive to potential buyers if they thought the coin was an old holder that had not been re-examined by us.

Can't have your cake and eat it too...sorry.

David

TomB

PCGS cracks all regrade submissions out of the holder before the graders see the coin. I feel more comfortable submitting a regrade candidate to PCGS within the holder. However, I also realize that most folks are paranoid about this issue and believe that PCGS will adhere to the previous grade, at best, no matter what. Personally, I submitted perhaps ten-to-fifty coins per year to PCGS from 1997-2004 and some of those coins were subsequently sent in for regrade. Here are my results for sending coins back to PCGS in the holder, please note that all of the MS coins are naturally toned with fantastic eye appeal and the circulated coin has original crust-

1964-D Roosevelt dime graded MS66 and regraded MS67 Upgraded.
1947-S Washington quarter graded MS66 and regraded MS67 Upgraded.
1949-D Washington quarter graded MS66 and regraded MS66
1949-D Washington quarter graded MS66 and regraded MS67 Upgraded.
1957-D Washington quarter graded MS66 and regraded MS66
1796 Draped Bust quarter graded VG10 and regraded F12 Upgraded.

So, four out of six actually received upgrades when they were sent back in the holder. Please also note that none are low-end for the new grade because they were graded incorrectly to begin with and are now in their proper grade.