For this kind of money.....

DesertRat

how does one avoid a counterfeit? It would seem to me that ancient coins would be quite susceptible to counterfeiting, so how are the fakes discovered and how does a newbie to this field of numismatics avoid them? I am not in any way shape or form suggesting the coin in the link is fake, it is absolutely beautiful imo, I'm simply wondering how you avoid fakes especially when spending $32,000 on a coin?

LINKY

lordmarcovan

In a scholarly and specialized field like ancient coins, where one cannot even count on the TPG to get the attribution of a coin right 100% of the time, there is a dilemma.

Ancient coins were struck with more primitive technology, so one would think they'd be easier to fake.

How can one trust a TPG for authentication if they cannot even name the correct emperor or variety? Of course, they do get it right most of the time, and the times I have seen an expert point out a TPG misattribution are fairly rare. It happens, but overall, I would trust a TPG to authenticate ancient coins. There is at least some measure of protection there, I would imagine. Third-Party grading is not as prevalent with ancients, however, partly due to the problems of attribution, but also because most collectors of ancients prefer their coins raw, where they can be held in hand and their aura of history properly felt. (I can remember watching The Man Who Would Be King, all the while holding a large, heavy tetradrachm of Alexander the Great, similar to the fictional hoard coins found in the movie, and for an hour or more I held the genuine coin and imagined where it had been and who had also held it in the past 2,300 years.)

Your best methods for avoiding fakes in ancient coins, as with any type of coin or collectible, are:

1. Educate yourself in general and more specifically, learn what genuine examples of certain coins should look like.
2. Buy from a reputable dealer.

The good news is, ancients aren't faked as often as you might think, aside from the crude copies made for the tourist and souvenir trade, which are usually identifiable from a mile off. Sure, there were copies made since medieval times. But these too are usually identifiable, and are collectible in their own right, anyway.

I guess there's something to be grateful for in the somewhat flat market for ancient and world coins. (Flat that is, in comparison to the market for US coins). Where the demand is smaller, the fakers don't come out to play as much.

I hope I spoke well despite being a novice in ancient coins, myself.

PS- by the time a collector enters the market for $32,000 coins in any field, one would hope that said collector has amassed the necessary knowledge and education, first. Otherwise it's a recipe for disaster. I think most people who have that kind of money to spend on a rare coin (specifically a rare ancient coin instead of some "investment" grade US coin), already know their stuff.

DesertRat

Well said Rob and thanks.

I also would assume that someone spending $32,000 on an ancient raw coin is well educated and most likely has dealt with the seller or broker before. It just brought to my mind the subject of fakes is all and you put it in perspective.

Thanks again

Danny

CIVITAS

Rob got the basics pretty well on the head. Also consider this: While an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, always consider the possibility that you will purchase a fake despite your best efforts. Then you have to take into consideration what your recourse is. The TPG will guarantee the authenticity of any coins in their holders. The question is at what level? Any reputable dealer in the field will refund your purchase price on anything they guarantee genuine. I don't know at what level the TPGs pay out. On US coins, they get to set the value to a certain degree. There have been some pretty complex scenarios recently involving Artificially Toned coins in holders involving LOTS of money. I don't know how they played out. If you buy a certified fake off eBay from an amateur collector for $500.00, but the TPGs only want to pay $250.00 in compensation, where does that leave you? (I'm not saying that would be the case, I just don't know how they determine payouts for their guarantees).

On the other side of the coin, know the dealer too. Everybody and his brother with an eBay account and a scanner can sell ancient coins online. I'm sure MANY people out there "guarantee" their items genuine, but how many honor that guarantee. Ask around a bit in forums like these. I know of at least one member who bought a fake from Harlan J Berk and was fully refunded for their mistake. I know CNG paid out on a lot of pieces from their part of the "Black Sea Hoard" of Apollonia and Pontika diobol fakes. At FUN I refunded someone's purchase from almost three years ago because the item was later found to be a high quality Chinese counterfeit of an 8 Reales.

The long and short of it is, the longer you are in this hobby/business, the more likely it is you will buy/sell a fake. As a dealer, it's almost assuredly going to happen because the counterfeiters are always trying to "build a better mousetrap." Their work is almost always discovered quickly and reputable dealers adjust accordingly. Reputation and appearance means a lot in this business, so know who you're dealing with and what they're willing to do for you if they goof. Google is a powerful tool.

ajaan

<< <i>I know of at least one member who bought a fake from Harlan J Berk and was fully refunded for their mistake. >>


I don't know if Josh is referring to me, but this happened to me. I bought a high grade Aethelred II penny from Harlan J. Berk. I sent the coin to IC and it came back as fake. HJB refunded my cost of the coin, the slabbing fee, and all postage fees. Even the cost of sending the coin to ICG. Pretty good company IMO.

CIVITAS

You're the one I was thinking of, Don. Just didn't want to air your personal business. Figured you'd do it on your own if you thought it relevant.

spoon

<< <i>so how are the fakes discovered and how does a newbie to this field of numismatics avoid them? >>

Don't start with $32K coins!

No, really.. what LM said in his PS is probably the most relevant part. Just like any job, if you want to do well you have to start at the bottom. Of course a hobby shouldn't resemble a job in too many other ways, but unless you just want to toss money around collecting on neurotic impulse and possibly wind up endangering the artifacts you encounter, you oughta learn a good bit about whatever it is you're doing.

-- Please also note, that paragraph above isn't directed at you. I know it comes off harsh. Just a tangent I was reminded of in another situation. But the lesson does apply well anywhere.

DesertRat

Thanks again guys for the info, always good to hear different people's opinion on the subject. By no means am i looking to purchase high dollar coins (not at this point at least) I just stumbled on that particular coin and thats what got me thinking.

Josh,
Thanks for your quick reply to my CS e-mail, I appreciate it and will keep checking the site for things that catch my fancy. Right now my main focus is on reading up on the coins I'm interested in and gettin edumucated

Danny