More than 10,000 Portuguese 40 Reis in Superior Auction!

MrEureka · February 18, 2007 1:15PM

Last week, Superior auctioned an incredibly large collection of Portuguese 40 Reis. There were hundreds of most dates. I bought a few hundred on a lark, sight unseen. I am curious to know if anyone here knows (or knew) the collector, what motivated him to hoard these pieces, etc. Was he planning on a die study? For that matter, has anyone ever cataloged the die varieties in this series?

bidask · February 18, 2007 2:38PM

<< <i>Last week, Superior auctioned an incredibly large collection of Portuguese 40 Reis. There were hundreds of most dates. I bought a few hundred on a lark, sight unseen. I am curious to know if anyone here knows (or knew) the collector, what motivated him to hoard these pieces, etc. Was he planning on a die study? For that matter, has anyone ever cataloged the die varieties in this series?

>>

That's what I like about you most Andy, you are a true numismatist!

laurentyvan · February 18, 2007 9:08PM

Interesting purchase!

Your sample image however, reinforces my opinion that this particular portrait was one of the most unflattering I have ever seen.

coinpictures · February 18, 2007 10:30PM

Looking at the prices realized, these are relatively inexpensive coins. Hard to tell without seeing pics of the actual lots, but a few of the lots went much higher than the others, even though the descriptions were similar... some lots the coins were about $4 each, and others they went as high as $10 each. Pretty big spread in quantity...

lordmarcovan · February 18, 2007 10:42PM

I dunno what prompted somebody to hoard 10,000 of them

, but I would possibly be interested in buying a few from you later on if you want to sell some.

josemartins · February 18, 2007 10:50PM

Never met him, but he is known (and as far as i know he's still alive) among local dealers as the "Americano", he would buy any "Pataco" in any grade (hummm, you'll get a lot of junk...) but from what i heard, i think it was a simple obsession rather than a serious study.
And i'm pretty sure there's a die variety monography somewhere in a "Moeda" magazine or in a APN or SPN monthly newsletter, but was never published separately.

This coin type is usually found in very low grade and only desirable when in VF or above, don't see Portuguese buying those lots sight unseen (except for 1815 coins, "John VI as king" oval shields, uncountermarked 1847's and a few other oddities).

Good luck Andy!

Jose

MrEureka · February 19, 2007 12:37AM

I would possibly be interested in buying a few from you later on if you want to sell some.

I'm sure I'll end up selling 95% of what I bought. PM sent!

BTW, the quality on these lots was pretty miserable, but there were still some nice pieces mixed in.

spinaker2000 · February 19, 2007 12:58AM

There goes the value of the VG one I bought at a local show yesterday!

MrEureka · February 19, 2007 3:21AM

i'm pretty sure there's a die variety monography somewhere in a "Moeda" magazine or in a APN or SPN monthly newsletter, but was never published separately.

Jose - Thanks for the answers! I'll look for the monograph next time I'm at the ANS. If you can help me narrow the search by providing the author's name, or the approximate year of publication, it could be very helpful.

josemartins · February 19, 2007 5:31AM

Andy, i'm at home now and and all you need to get a list af all the die varieties is the "Alberto Gomes" catalog and if you have some translation issues, feel free to PM me.
Now, if you want a discriptive listing of all the varieties, i guess Mr. Gomes should have it's sources, or they were already listed in the "Teixeira de Aragão" book, or there are some article(s) published about "Patacos" (it's a popular coin, no doubt there are).
I can't be of much assistance in finding those, but the website of the Portuguese Numismatic Association is:
http://www.anumismatica.org.pt
You'll find their email in there, and i'm sure if you identify yourself as a ANS or ANA member they will certainly help you (PM me if they don't).

Jose

MrEureka · February 19, 2007 6:26AM

all you need to get a list af all the die varieties is the "Alberto Gomes" catalog

Jose - Thanks again. I checked out Gomes but all he lists are the major varieties. I'll check out the website next.

Edited to say that I have the first edition of Gomes from 1987. I now see that the most recent edition is 2003. Have many more die varieties been added?

Madame · February 19, 2007 12:21PM

Interesting Coin and I like the Patina and love the photos

TwoKopeiki · February 19, 2007 12:43PM

That's the ugliest baby I have ever seen ...

josemartins · February 19, 2007 5:37PM

I don't keep my older catalogs editions, i sell them as soon i got a new one (The latest edition is actually 2006, i'll "ditch" my 2003 one as soon as i get my hands on the new one).
Just a small check on the number of varieties listed by price "line"(without trials):
John as regent: 11 (2 sub-types)
John VI: 26 (3 sub-types)
Peter IV: 14 (2 sub-types)
Michael I: 19 (2 sub-types)
Maria II (Porto siege): 9 (2 sub-types)
Maria II: 7 (3 sub-types, inc. 1847 rebel issue)
Maria II (counterstrikes): 21 (3 sub-types)

If you want to go deeper than this it could be a little "insane", don't forget that "steam machine" strikes only begun in 1836, and if you would be hunting for tiny die variations in Portuguese coins before that...

Roman - Yes, the guy had the neck of a (American) football player.

Jose

MrEureka · February 20, 2007 5:09AM

If you want to go deeper than this it could be a little "insane", don't forget that "steam machine" strikes only begun in 1836

If the Sheldon and Overton collectors can do it with US coins, so can we!

You're right, it would be insane.

Then again, if the shoe fits...

I think I'll start with my pile and report back when I know more!

josemartins · February 20, 2007 6:56AM

The problem with Portuguese coins before 1836, is that usually the full strike pressure wasn't usually applied and with the variety of thickness some very "funky" varieties may appear and you will end up with most of the coins not being 100% the same...

I've spoken to a couple of people and they've told me that for die varieties, the Gomes is the way to go, but if you want to know more about those coins the book: «O pataco, pobre moeda de recurso» - Nestor Fatia Vital - 1977, is the best.

But the main advantage of having a large quantity of patacos is that if you get bored you can play "malha" with them!

Good luck Andy, let us know what you've found!

Jose

More than 10,000 Portuguese 40 Reis in Superior Auction!

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