Help determining cleaned / altered coins

Rob85635

Per the "Lingo" section I found the following definitions:

Cleaned - A term applied to a coin whose original surface has been removed. The effects may be slight or severe, depending on the method used.
Dipped - A term applied to a coin that has been placed in a commercial "dip" solution, a mild acid wash that removes the toning from most coins. Some dip solutions employ other chemicals, such as bases, to accomplish a similar result. The first few layers of metal are removed with every dip, so coins repeatedly dipped will lose luster, hence the term "overdipped".
Whizzing - Term to describe the process of mechanically moving the metal of a lightly circulated coin to simulate luster. Usually accomplished by using a wire brush attachment on a high-speed drill.

When I read posts about grading, occasionally the group consensus is a coin has been cleaned, altered, whizzed, whatever. My question is How the heck do you tell??? Unless the coin is obviously lightly scratched or something, I cannot tell.

Can anyone help me with a guide to knowing what to look for when I see a picture of a coin on Ebay, or elsewhere, that will tell me a coin has been CLEANED / DIPPED / WHIZZED , etc.? I am trying to self educate, but the lingo section does little to help tell you what to look for, I did a search in the forums here with no results (maybe im looking with wrong text).

How about a 1-10 list or 1-5 of the things to look for. I saw a post today, the coin looked fine to me, but everyone said it was cleaned. This is very frustrating to me and I don't want to post pictures of coins in the forum every time I see one I want to buy, besides, you guys would ban me (rightfully so).

Thanks for any help or links that can "teach" me what to look for so I can (hopefully) know a cleaned/altered coin on the spot like you guys.

Rob the Newbie

DUIGUY

Brillo 101 example

roadrunner

Most of us here have learned the lesson by buying cleaned coins over the years (ie mistakes) or comparing hundreds or thousands of similar coins. Experience is about the only method. Just get out and start looking at them until you can start to see the difference.
Locating a mentor or local dealer/collector to help you would be advisable as well. The lessons of identifying wear and/or missing mint luster is the next segment of one's education.

Learning to spot hairlines is one key to identifying cleaned coins.

roadrunner

Jdurg

1): Hairlines; These are tiny, thin lines that appear on the field of a coin and indicated that an abrasive substance was used to remove surface toning. This process leaves behind tiny little lines that all go in the same direction that the "scrub" was performed.

2): Buildup along letters; If someone tried to clean a coin using a polishing compound or abrasive scrub, they won't be able to get into the areas where raised details meet the background field. If you look closely, you'll see that this area will still be dull and not nearly as bright as the rest of the coin. These areas will look substantially different than the areas that were exposed to the cleaning agent.

3): Unnatural Look; Right now, take out a circulated coin from your pocket change and take out an uncirculated coin from a mint set. Look carefully at how they reflect light, shine, gleam, and just overall look. Notice how the circulated coin doesn't reflect light the same way and has an overall look to it that isn't as sharp or bright as the freshly minted, never circulated coin. Once a coin loses the freshly minted luster and look, it can NEVER come back. NEVER. When people clean/whizz/dip coins they try and get the circulated coins to look like they were just minted, but it can not happen. Instead, the coin will have this unnaturally bright look to them which won't look right. The cartwheel luster will be off or missing entirely. The details will be worn a little bit, yet the coin will be really bright. Things just won't add up.

4): Soft Details, Bright Shine; If your coin has soft details such as one would expect from a coin that's been worn and circulated, yet the coin is bright and shiny, then it means the coin has been cleaned at some point. A truly uncirculated coin will have sharp details even if the minting process itself was done softly. A circulated coin will not have any sharp details at any point because those are the first things to be worn down during circulation.

seemyauction

One of the best thing you can do to learn is find a person that is willing to show you what different cleaned coins look like. Its a good idea to look at some PCGS toned slabs to get an idea what proper toning looks like too.

A great place to start is your local coin club, if you let poeple know that you are trying to learn how to tell..... most folks will share their knowledge with you, if they won't get away from them there up to no good or just don't know.

Keep your eyes peeled for threads asking about AT or NT, you will learn some things from other board members too....


Al

RedTiger

<< <i>Experience is about the only method. >>



I agree with RoadRunner. Finding a local club or a veteran dealer or collector to help will speed the learning curve. However, at the end of the day, a person has to look at a lot of coins. There are several good posts about what to look for, however, it will come slowly for the average person.

Don't be discouraged, and be glad that you are on the path of learning. There are some collectors that have 20 years in the hobby, still buying cleaned, dipped out, artificially toned, or otherwise enhanced coins. They don't know, what they don't know, and it is sad. You may encounter some of these folks at the local club, or local show, as a new person, do not be confrontational.

Rob85635

Thanks Jdurg for the list, it is almost exactly what I was looking for, and that picture from DUIGUY is a great example, even I can see the scratches on that.

I will print that list or keep it available so I can read / memorize what Jdurg is saying. I guess I'm looking for surefire fast ways to quickly learn what obviously takes a long time to understand.

Does anyone have a list like Jdurg made that might help me identify what exactly a dipped coin looks like and help identifying those? I know that basically a dipped coin has a layer of "toning" removed to help reveal the metal behind it, but thats about all I understand. Do dipped coins generally have no lustre? Or is it that once dipped the lustre is overall the same? For example if, a person was to dip a mirrored coin, would the mirrored field fade and then blend with the rest of the "frosted" or unmirrored surface?

Thanks again,

Rob the Newbie

kranky

Luster is produced by light reflecting off the microscopic irregularities in the coin surface, which are produced from the metal displacement (flow lines) as the coin is struck. Dipping a coin removes some of the surface of the coin. The longer the coin is dipped (could be either one too-long dip or multiple short ones), the more surface is removed. As that layer is removed, it reduces the luster, because the flow lines are being dissolved by the dip. When the coin is overdipped, the luster is gone. The coin looks "flat" and dull.

A coin which is dipped "properly" is not detectible (IMHO), because it has only barely affected the luster - not enough to be noticeable. A coin which has been overdipped IS noticeable because of the lack of luster. It may not have many marks, it may be well struck, but it will be lifeless.

Myqqy

Once you settle on the series or three that you want to focus on, you can start the process of evaluating thousands of those types of coins in the type of grade and preservation you want for your set. After a while, you will begin to know what a premium example looks like in relation to an example that has been cleaned or enhanced. You will know what strong luster is for that issue, versus impaired luster. If you choose an older series like bust halves, you will learn that most examples have been cleaned at some point in the past- but that some have a darker, more original look versus an unnaturally white look. Find some folks here that you can pm with questions and pics, while you go to local shows and the like...