Help with condition wanted: 1948 Bowman Spahn - VG? **UPDATE**

JeffD27177

First off I'm by no means an an expert in vintage or grading which is the main reason I'm asking this question and looking for some more knowledgeable opinions.
Secondly, I know that buying raw is always a risk, grading is subjective, and as Rich G. used to say (over on the Beckett boards at least) "If you want a card in a particular condition, I suggest you buy it graded in that condition." I'm also not trying to accuse anyone of anything.

This card was described as VG and basically I was wondering if you guys agree with that or at least think it's a reasonable assessment of this card's condition. As I said I know it's always a risk to buy ungraded cards and subjective, but from what I know, VG would be a PSA 3. Do you think this card can pull that at all? Due to a bad picture, I took a chance based on his description and what I could see of the card. He did mention "creases" but I didn't think they would be so severe considering he also first describes the card as "VG." It was described "Card is in VG condition- corners are decent just showing slight wear-creases." That all of it.

Here's a smaller scan of the card received:



Larger scans can be found here: FRONT and BACK


I just want to know if I should even bother letting the seller know I'm disappointed with the description of the card after seeing it in hand, or if I should just chalk it up as one more of the many lessons I've had to learn in buying vintage. Or perhaps I'm being too picky and this card is indeed around a PSA 3.

Thanks for your help, especially considering I don't post very often (although I do lurk a lot).

jimq112

Graders are all over the place on low grade vintage, but here's a 2 for comparison.



psa2

danp306

PSA 1 or SGC 10 ... I would say "Poor" condtion

Here's a 1948 Bowman PSA 3 (VG)

WinPitcher

A card with a crease down the middle of it is not VG. Nor is it G.

That card is Poor/Fair



Steve

Wondo

That's, at best, a Good card - not a VG.

Did you pay g or vg money for it?

The card was definately misrepresented based on your quoted condition description. I always let theseller know that I am disappointed with that aspect and if a refund is offered, take it or give him the option to compensate you.

Just my .02.

gotsparks09

MOST DEFINITELY POOR/FAIR. No doubt about it.

Stone193

<< <i>A card with a crease down the middle of it is not VG. Nor is it G.

That card is Poor/Fair



Steve >>




<< <i>A crease may be visible >>



I agree Steve.

For it to be a 3 - a crease may be visible - but not the multiple creases that split the card in half.

mike

Uncbob

Could you have asked him for a scan
I would have

JeffD27177

Thanks for all your replies and opinions. They are basically consistent with what I was thinking as well.

As I said, I'm not angry, simply disappointed with his description. I've sent him an email stating such and asking for his opinion on the matter.

And I should have asked for a better scan and will in the future (along with not trying to "guess" a card's condition).

I also don't know that I paid VG price for it, but I wouldn't have bought it (or paid what I did) for this "Poor/Fair" card. I would much rather have gotten a different card for about what I paid for this one, or spent a little extra money for a card in significantly better condition.

WinPitcher

cards can be graded 'good' and have a crease. just not down the middle of the card. the crease would have to be in a corner or at the bottom and not be a severe as that one is. Sellers that pull this crap are slimey ripoff artists and should be ashamed of themselves. they know full well that the card is not VG.

True VG cards do not have creases. they have 4 worn corners.

Steve

WinPitcher

I saw your auction and yes I think you over paid. The seller does say creases but gives the impression the creases are in the corner. he does try and scam ya with:

rounded corners - creases. makes no mention that the crease is down the middle of the card. FWIW you can see the crease a lil but then again that is only cuz I saw your blowup first.

A similar example sold for 22.00 with the crease going from side to side. that seller graded and descibed it properly, yours did not.

I would return the card for refund as it was not described or graded properly.

That seller will never see any of my money.

i did not link the auction as I did not know if you wanted it to be.

sorry this happened to you.

Steve

WinPitcher

Dbl post

JeffD27177

Yeah, the crease is somewhat visible AFTER you know what the card really looks like. When I first looked at the provided picture, and thinking the card was VG, the only thing I could imagine was that it was a small surface scuff line in the hat. Even knowing what to look for now, it's not very visible when you look at it up close. If you look at it from a distance you can almost see a small line that goes down the length of the card, but it's not really indicative of what the card actually looks like.

It's partly my fault I suppose, and if the crease was limited to the part in the hat that I should have guessed was a crease (and not just a surface scratch or something as I had hoped) then I wouldn't have said anything and just left feedback. The way the background of the picture looks made me miss the crease to the left of his nose, which is even worse than my picture shows. There's another diagonal crease that you can hardly see in the picture above that goes from the middle right edge of the card down to the giant center crease. There are multiple other creases on the front and back of varying levels of severity as well as stains, mostly on the front.


I probably did overpay some, and as I mentioned in my email to him...I'm glad others didn't bid me up even higher. I thought I might have gotten a decent deal on a VG card and potential PSA 3.

I'm not having a good week. I have to take my own advice and be smarter about stuff and not think things are going to be a certain way just because I want them to be true.

Stone193

Jeff

I know how ya feel. If ya read my thread on buying crap in the late 80s - back then a card was pretty much quickly inspected - if it looked good - it got a Nmmt.

Today with grading companies and guys using scanning electron microscopes - a card better be clean.

Sorry to hear about your disappointment.
mike

JeffD27177

Thanks Stone. And I did read that thread, and I have to agree with the assessment that at lest you were buying vintage back then.
Still disappointing though, I'm sure.
Oh yeah...happy Birthday!


He emailed me back and it seems like he feels at least somewhat bad. He asked if I had any suggestions on how he could make it up to me. Wondering if I should ask for a flat out refund or maybe just some money back? I don't want to be a jerk or anything, but I also am not thrilled with keeping the card. I'll probably just want to buy a nicer one right away anyways.

WinPitcher

Another thing I did not like about that auction was the guy had 5 cards in the picture making it even harder to see any potential probs. I would want a total refund as it was not the buyer's fault here at all. The seller is a slime ball.

Steve

WinPitcher

He asked if I had any suggestions on how he could make it up to me.


Yeah I'd say how about i send back the card and you send back my dough. and if he was a good seller he pay postage both ways too.


Steve

JeffD27177

Just wanted to update my situation. I did request a refund and he gave it to me (albeit minus shipping). Thought I should let you guys know that at least he wasn't completely unreasonable about it.

Although he did relist it soon after I sent it back to him, again with a poor picture grouped with other cards and again describing it as "VG." He did mention the crease this time. Here's the full description as far as it pertains to the card:

CARD IS IN VG- CONDITION, HAS SOME CREASING (HEAVIEST DOWN CENTER) AND A MINOR VERY SMALL STAIN AT THE BOTTOM NECK AREA. CORNERS ARE DECENT, BACK IS VERY NICE AND CLEAN.

Here's the picture from the new auction:



I thought after the refund (minus shipping) he had redeemed himself some, but the new auction wasn't much better. Auction did end about 50% lower than the one I won though, probably b/c of the mention of the "some creasing."

Anyways, I used the refund towards a graded card that was more in the condition I was looking for. Not the best centering, but the card is in pretty sharp condition, with NO creases or stains. Obviously it cost me more, but at least I got more what I was looking for:




Thanks for all your help guys. I probably wouldn't have had the nerve to ask for a refund without your help.

WinPitcher

Glad it worked out for you. I like how the sellerstill tries to claim that card was VG.

Anyways the one you did settle on is nice.

Steve

JeffD27177

<< <i>Glad it worked out for you. I like how the sellerstill tries to claim that card was VG. >>



Yeah...and "clean back?" I guess if you ignore the huge crease that goes through from the front and the various stains (including some light pink ones) I guess it's "clean."

But thanks!

Ahmanfan

Glad it worked out for you. Did you try and explain to the seller that the card is not VG?

John

Ahmanfan

oh and have you looked at the 48 leaf spahn? a nice colorful rc, a little more appealing (to me at least) than the bowman.
John

JeffD27177

<< <i>Did you try and explain to the seller that the card is not VG? >>



Yes, I did. And I mentioned that people more "expert" in the field all thought the card was poor to fair at best.

He replied that he does his best to accurately grade his cards, but he must have been off on this one. But that didn't seem to be reflected in his new description.

And yes, I do like the Leaf 48. I was watching a BVG graded 5 that ended recently and almost bid, but decided I need to hold back on my spending a little.
I also missed out on a PSA 5 bin that I would have hit a little while back for a pretty good price. Hopefully I'll get one soon.