Coins and traveling

1jester

I know this topic has been brought up a few times over the years, but I'd like to know if anybody has any new information or interesting stories to share, or advice and warnings to help us avoid problems.

Not too long ago I had the dubious pleasure to pass through customs at Warsaw's Chopin International Airport, en route to Amsterdam, and I had an absolutely horrible experience with Poland's incoherent customs laws and inane customs officers. It seems that Poland has a law that says nothing produced before 1945 may be exported without written consent of a licensed "conservatory official". Ostensibly this law is in place to protect "national treasures", whatever that means. The problem lies, obviously, in private property rights. Does a person have the right to own anything? Even if brought into Poland, the onus is upon you to prove you didn't steal it. One cannot declare goods when entering the country, but the customs officials reserve the "right" to detain you and confiscate your property if you try to leave the country, even if you legally own it and brought it into the country.

On another occasion I expressly tried to declare some coins which I'd bought in from the states, but the customs officials in Poland (about 8 gathered around me) said it was impossible to declare anything like coins, because they weren't professionals and couldn't determine if what I said was correct concerning the coins (even slabbed coins fit into this category). However, if I tried to leave with these exact coins, I'd be detained and possibly have the coins confiscated if I didn't have clearance from the conservatory official, which I would have to arrange at my own expense, of course, and there's no way to predict if I'd even be able to gain such a clearance for my coins. These customs officials said the job of the conservatory official is merely to determine what the coins are, and if they're stolen or not. However, I know from my own experience that the Polish law concerning exporting items prior to 1945 requires PERMISSION from the conservatory official that I can export said items. So what the customs people told me doesn't square with facts, and I can't imagine I won't be faced with trouble if I try to leave with these exact same coins, though I was denied the opportunity to declare them.

Have any of you encountered similar situations in other countries? How do you deal with this problem that concerns all of us who participate in this hobby? How do dealers cope with this seemingly insurmountable problem (save by avoiding Poland completely)? I"m eager to hear your experiences, views and advice.

SYRACUSIAN

Mike, there's a special directive from EU, that clearly specifies that gold and collectable coins are exempt from taxation and VAT,regardless of origin. Some special conditions apply. Very useful for imports from the US and Switzerland that are non EU countries:

EU directive on gold


EU directive on collectable coins

Sleazy local Customs employees prefer to ignore its existence, But I intend to have it officially translated by the Greek state Department and use it if such an unfortunate occasion presents itself, especially with coins returned from TPGs.

Links kindly provided by tsoupa3.

1jester

Thanks for the links, Dimitri. However, I don't see anything directly concerning the problems I have encountered, since in most cases I haven't tried to import or export bullion gold. Does bullion silver fall in the same category?

I'd like to hear from experienced dealers who travel with coins to see what their experiences have been. Admittedly, I have not had any problems whatsoever in other EU airports, just in Warsaw. Also, I have heard of people being arrested in Poland for trying to take coins older than 1945 out of the country, and that is what the customs official tried to tell me when I was leaving Warsaw with coins: "it's NOT allowed to take such coins out."

spoon

Would the guys at WCN have any good advice? being somewhat bigtime dealers and auctioneers I imagine they've run into the same problems?

FilamCoins

Having lived in Thailand, Vietnam and the Philippines, lots of interesting customs stories, but never really had a problem. Lots of questions, serious looks, and customs officials gathering around and shouting to their colleagues across the airport, "HEY [insert ethic name]! CHECK OUT THIS BOX OF EXPENSIVE COINS!!" Not always discreet, but I always seem to get through in the end.

wybrit

Jester, there's nothing worse than corrupt, incompetent customs officials and stupid laws. Do their laws apply to coins produced outside of Poland as well as inside? If so, there's not much point is there?

I've only had substantial experience with British and Canadian customs. Much has already been written about them.

If you drive out of the country, do they stop you for customs?

SYRACUSIAN

Sorry Mike, I didn't properly read the question the first time, but keep these links for future use ,they might come handy.


Regarding the export of the coins, protection of a country's cultural heritage is a very serious issue and is becoming more important every day, even museums are now returning various artifacts that they obtained with questionable methods to their countries of origin. These laws are set up with the intention to stop the looting that has been taking place for decades, if not centuries in some cases, and they inevitably lead to extremes, and to unfair treatment of the average collector such as you or me.

If you want to export these coins with the intention to sell them or store them in another country, I would suggest to mail them in advance to a recipient that you trust and whom you'll later meet or ask him to ship you the coins to the location that you initially wanted to take them. If the value is too high and/or the volume too large, it would be adviseable to break up the lot in 2-3 parcels. Also, unless you have an already existing Fedex account, and you are familiar enough with the employees to the extent that they do not ask about the content of the parcel when they come to pick it up, I would recommend to use registered shipment instead. It goes without saying that you will not declare the real content of these parcels and that you'll endure a small risk until they reach their destination, because you will be better off not to insure them, otherwise it's like inviting the Customs to stop them on their way out.

Justhavingfun

I've carried coins across many borders and the only time I had trouble was leaving the Philippines. The security guards there sometimes try to shake you down. It happened twice to me. Each time, I chanced it and insisted on seeing their boss, and eventually reached someone honest. Scary though.

My experience may be atypical because evidently it never happened to Mr. Filam. And I'm friends with another US dealer who travels to the Philippines, and he's never had a problem either.

But then I normally travel in shorts and a t-shirt, and don't shave ... and that may make the security guards think I'm a patsy for a shakedown. I travel like that, by the way, because twice, friends of mine, who dress up to travel, have been mugged upon leaving the airport. And a third friend, a Philippine coin collector, was kidnapped. So, I like to look like I'm not a good target.

Turning to the opposite issue, bringing coins into the country. You're right about the customs agents being uninterested. Twice now, when entering Thailand, I went to the customs line: "Something to declare." But when I showed them the coins, they grimaced in disgust and waved me to the "nothing to declare" customs line. But they're honest in Thailand.

Again, I wouldn't try the same thing going into the Philippines. There, I'd have no confidence they wouldn't just try to shake me down. It happened to me once with an old computer I was bringing in from America for a friend. This was an old laptop worth max $300. They said it was worth $1,000 and nicked me for 10%. I paid it. They'd just hold it forever -- it doesn't matter to me.

I don't want to give the Philippines a bum rap. I've crossed the borders maybe 50 times each way, and those three experiences were my only bad ones. It's a great country and I really, really enjoy myself there and have many good friends. But the corruption in the Philippines is one of the reasons I prefer Thailand. I've never been shaken down by a cop, border security, or immigration.

Best wishes,



Just Having Fun

1jester

<< <i>Jester, there's nothing worse than corrupt, incompetent customs officials and stupid laws. Do their laws apply to coins produced outside of Poland as well as inside? If so, there's not much point is there?

I've only had substantial experience with British and Canadian customs. Much has already been written about them.

If you drive out of the country, do they stop you for customs? >>



Hi Wybrit! Yes, these laws apply to anything produced before 1945, regardless of where it was produced or when it was brought into the country or by whom. Poland has more insane laws than you can shake a stick at. Driving out of the country makes it much easier to carry things with you, and to some extent crossing the border by train or bus would also enable you to smuggle things out relatively easily, so in fact I don't know why they give airplane travelers such a hard time, except that they make easier targets. I just can't get over the fact that they'll shake you down regularly upon leaving, but won't even hear of allowing you to document what you bring in. They know what's up and the rules are designed to make criminals of people, and to opportunistically steal from people.

I'm still really interested if any of our known Darkside dealers have encountered trouble in Poland, or have even stepped foot in the country with coins. Please share your stories!