card doctoring info
cohocorp
Posts: 1,371 ✭✭
this may have been discussed before but i wanted to get some opinions from members here. shouldnt there be some sort of permanent resource of tracking those people whose submission have (say 10%+ ) evid of triming on their submissions. i dont know how to track other people's submissions because i dont know the sub # or the zip code. i think all subs should be able to be seen by all without much trouble --maybe within the psa site - you can enter year, card number, etc and it pops out submissions containing those cards and the grades and the submittors name. in addition, you should be able to search a person's name to see their past submissions. if this can be done, i think it could have a great impact on the hobby and slow dont some of these losers who trim, color etc. for example, it seller xyz had a 1965 mantle psa 8 on ebay, i could go to the psa website and search 1965 topps mantle and see all who submitted them. so if seller xyz submitted say 5 examples and 1-2 times it came back (evid of trimming) then i would be better informed, and would know to stay away from him. i would blacklist him in my mind. now, i am sure it would be a pain in the butt programming something like this but i think it would benefit everyone. anyone have any thoughts on this idea??
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Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
I think there's a big privacy issue there. I don't think PSA is about to share its list of customers and their submission history with anyone who cares to see it, and I don't think they should. I wouldn't want any company that I do business with sharing with the general public any information about my past business without my permission.
Also, when cards come back with evidence of trimming, it doesn't necessarily mean the person who submitted them did the trimming. If a new or inexperienced collector buys a lot of say 50 really nice looking cards on eBay, then submits them, and they all come back trimmed, I don't think the person who submits them would deserve to be red-flagged as a card trimmer. A sucker, maybe.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
Are you concerned about buying raw
It seems to me it would be in PSA's interest to have the doctorers out there because it would make people hesitant to buy non PSA graded cards
My Sports Cards/Magazines
Cards/Mags
-2 years ago i nailed a counterfeited of barry bonds rcs and he is in jail now. i got a refund immediately when i called him out on it but still persisted and followed up with the state police.
-recently someone tried to scam me by offering cards which he did not have. he used stolen scans. he accepted a paypal pmt. i got a refund but i am still going after him. as of now, the state police are involved and i am pretty sure it is going to be bumped to the fbi for internet fraud as well as wire fraud.
i believe in doing the right thing when it has a direct affect on me or not.
<< <i>Also, when cards come back with evidence of trimming, it doesn't necessarily mean the person who submitted them did the trimming. If a new or inexperienced collector buys a lot of say 50 really nice looking cards on eBay, then submits them, and they all come back trimmed, I don't think the person who submits them would deserve to be red-flagged as a card trimmer. A sucker, maybe. >>
Yeah. I get the feeling I'm going to fall into that category the next time PSA has a pre-war special.
Arthur
this isnt a case of proving something. its just showing who is submitting the altered cards, and to what frequency. at that point we are better informed as to whether or not we deal with those people or not.
for example, if you were able to pull up my name and it shows all my past submissions and on it there are normally evid of trimming cards, wouldnt you know better than to buy from me. this is what i am getting at. now if i am not doing the trimming, i would know not to buy from whoever i initially got the cards from. as i said, it not a matter of proving, its just making people aware.
For the sake of argument, let's say I am able to look up your name and what you've submitted to PSA, and (again, for the sake of argument) I see you've submitted a lot of trimmed cards. And what if your name is John Smith and there is more than one John Smith who has submitted cards to PSA? Not a real fair deal for the other John Smiths. You'd have to have more identifying information, right? Otherwise, all the John Smiths are in danger of being presumed card trimmers. And the more identifying information PSA provides, the more they would be potentially providing criminals with a list of who has what and/or a map of what they may be able to find where. (Not to mention potentially providing spouses with a better idea of how much has really been spent on cards.)
And, ultimately, it's none of my business what's in John Smith's collection. Of course, not everyone who would like to keep their collection or part of it private, has a sinister reason for doing so. I think anyone who prefers that privacy should be able to submit items to PSA without having to give it up.
I think regardless of whether a card is graded or not you still have to know what to look for, and buy the card and not the holder. Being slabbed gives a reasonable amount of security, but mistakes do happen, and it's your own money you're playing with.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>I think there could be something done to help sort out the recurring submitters who have altered cards. The example of someone buying a bunch of trimmed cards and submitting to PSA and then nothing happens after that is wrong. There should be some recourse such as PSA keeps trimmed or altered cards, makes you give them the name of the person you bought them from so they can confirm you did not do the altering etc. I mean altered and fake cards are the same as printing money and is fraud is it not? Why should the cards be sent back so they can just try again later. At some point maybe if the card is worth enough local authorties are involved if a pattern emerges. >>
My problems with that are the following:
I don't necessarily have all the information for every raw card I purchased on ebay in the past 12 months. Ebay allows you to go back 30 days, after that you're SOL. And what about times where I have multiple raw copies of cards that I purchased 9 months ago and one of them comes back Evid. Trimming?
Also, PSA returns the cards because there's "evidence of trimming." Evidence of it, but not guaranteed. There is no way to indisputably prove that a raw card has been trimmed with malicious motives. There are only varying degrees of evidence. Also, I'm a collector, not a seller. If the price is right I would purchase a card I wanted even if it were trimmed. So are trimmed cards worthless? Maybe to you but not necessarily to everyone.
Oh, and PSA isn't always right. They're just less wrong than the other companies.
If PSA kept my cards that I submitted because there was "Evidence of trimming" they would have a severe problem on their hands from me.
Arthur
as far as 2 submittors with the same exact name- i really dont see that as an issue. that is really reaching.
they dont have to provide addresses, just the state would be good enough. so it wouldnt be a security issue.
edit to add: i am trying to give ideas and potential solutions as opposed to complain about it and do nothing. most times people are more than happy to whine but never offer solutions.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
-- regarding rejecting the entire submission and keep the fees is one idea. definately like it.
1.) As previously mentioned, I started learning about pre-war the same time I was buying it. Sort of a trial by fire method. Because the area I buy isn't widely collected I'm also buying cards frfom issues that may not have previously popped up. Also, much of what I buy hasn't been graded yet so I have to frame of reference.
2.) I'm a bargain hunter. I'll hop on things I might not normally buy if the price is right or way under "book." When you don't know your arse from your elbow that is a dangerous practice. I'm sure I've burned myself quite a few times.
I'm not a seller. But, what if one day I am forced to sell part or all of my collection? What would someone who went searching find?
A "new" seller. Someone without a steady history of selling and virtually all of the feedback is from buying. Buying, of course, vintage raw cards. The info provided by PSA shows subs with a large amount of evid. of trimming on them. On the other hand, though, the stuff I'm selling is mid- to high-grade pre-war. I don't know about you but I'd think that the seller finally got some to squeak through after numerous attempts at doctoring the raw cards they bought. After all, no one could be THAT stupid enough to buy THAT many raw trimmed cards on ebay, could they? Is that fair?
And yes, apparently someone is stupid enough to buy that much raw trimmed.
Arthur
and, as we all know, or should know, there is nothing illegal about submitting trimmed cards or doctored cards or even selling them. who is going to get prosecuted for this? does anyone know of one single case where someone successfully prosecuted someone for card doctoring?
last but not least, even the sellers who reputedly sell trimmed cards have 100% (or close to it) feedback. this is the real joke in all of this. nobody has the ba**s to neg someone because of the fear of retaliation. this would be the best way to catch these culprits but nobody is stepping up to do it. I'm reminded of the thread the other day where someone buys a supposedly unopened box and finds writing on the back of one of the cards. He gets his money back and leaves a positive for the guy!!! Nobody is going to rock the boat for fear of getting the dreaded negative and tarnishing that pristine feedback rating. Believe me, I am not casting stones here. I do the same thing. I have received many trimmed acrds and never once neg'd the seller. Not once.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
good points. this idea is just a start point. its certainly not foolproof. i think something should be done though.
not once did i mention prosecuting anyone. i think that is where the problems begin. simply too hard to prove. i was thinking preponderance of the evidence. (if it looks like crap and smells like crap, i will trust that it is crap without having to taste it.
regarding the guy with the 1978 topps box. i actually emailed the seller and jumped in to support the buyer. none of my business but i believe in standing up.
having a second ebay acct just for buying is great. who cares if they have a neg feedback on a buying acct.
Some baseball card counterfeits are otherwise genuine cards that have been doctored. This usually involves making a slight alteration in order to transform a common card into a rare and expensive variation. Famous variations include the T206 Magie error (misspells the last name of Sherry Magee), T206 Doyle variation and the 1990 Topps NNOF (No Name on Front) Frank Thomas.
The collector should take extra care when purchasing expensive variations. This can include getting second opinions, whether from a fellow collector or trusted grader, and purchasing from a good seller.
Altered counterfeits is an area where you can get a worthwhile opinion from a non collector. While you may be the resident baseball card guru, your spouse or daughter may turn out to have a keener eye for seeing alterations.
Methods for identifying altered cards
A combination of the following tests will identify most altered counterfeits
Visual Examination: Added paper and paint is often identified just by a close look. It is often a slightly off color, pattern and/or texture. It is difficult to match colors to fool the human eye. While most amateurs can be easily detected, some professional restores can be deceptive job.
Surface Texture: When holding a card at an angle nearing 180 degrees to a light, the added paint, ink or paper will often have a different texture and gloss from the rest of the card surface. The added material also may be physically raised from the rest of the card. You might be able to feel the relief with your finger tip.
It is extremely difficult to match the gloss of the original, and chances are added paper or ink will shine differently.
The added paint on a fake 1990 Topps NNOF Frank Thomas is obvious when viewed at a sharp angle to the desk lamp. The paint has a different gloss and texture.
Opacity: When held up to a bright light, the doctoring may be apparent.
Black Light: Just as counterfeits and genuine cards often fluoresce differently under black light, so often will the alterations. Added paper, glue and ink material may stand out under black light.
Beware of 'varnished' counterfeits
To try and cover-up their handiwork, some forgers will coat the card in a clear substance. This often makes the touchups harder to see with the naked eye. However, the varnish will usually give the card an abnormal gloss and florescence. Comparison with genuine cards in the same issue will reveal the difference.
A collector once bought a rare variation T206 card. The card looked okay to him, except the front was much glossier than his other T206s. The card turned out to be an altered card that had been varnished.
<< <i>arthur,
good points. this idea is just a start point. its certainly not foolproof. i think something should be done though. >>
I agree. I'm constantly trying to pick the brains of all the seasoned vets around here about spotting trimmed or possibly trimmed cards, be they raw or slabbed. I think that us, as a community, should probably just start a thread that can be added to constantly about suspect buyers.
While simply sportting a trimmed card isn't enough to publicly out some seller, posting their responses to inquiries regarding their items for sale, their return policy, guarantees (or lackthereof) or just their general defense to that type of inquiry can help folks here decide if they would want to buy from that seller. Not just for the possibility of trimming but for their business practices and willingness to stand behind their product. That way, when in doubt, someone could just do a search for the seller's name and if they pop up in that thread they can judge for themselves if they'd be willing to do business with the seller.
Just spitballing here. I agree, something should be done. Even if it's just a collective effort on the part of those on these boards to help each other out.
Arthur
Arthur
<< <i>i guess the best way for me to sum this idea up is: similar to the cert verification link, you could enter a persons name and state and it gives the history of submissions. then we can decide from there. >>
That would be a total breach of privacy. You can argue for more stringent evaluations of cards or whatever, but this starts to get Orwellian once you begin suggesting that everyone's submission results should be made available to the public with the submitter's name and state attached.
<< <i>as far as 2 submittors with the same exact name- i really dont see that as an issue. that is really reaching.
they dont have to provide addresses, just the state would be good enough. so it wouldnt be a security issue. >>
I don't think it's a reach at all, or that including the state or even the city would eliminate any and all potential for confusion over two people with the same or similar names. And I sense that we're not about to come close to agreement on that, but I believe it's really a moot point, anyway. I highly doubt that PSA would even consider publishing its list of customers and past transactions for all the world to see.
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That information is - and should remain - private.
It is none of my business what a third-party submits.
Revealing that info might help some folks avoid buying
raw cards that had been previously rejected, but that
is not the proper function of PSA.
Buying raw-cards only from people you trust is a good idea.
Buying ONLY PSA-graded cards is an even better idea.
this is exactly what they want.....to drive the good guys out of town. I honestly believe that the continued contributions of members like cohocorp and other very seasoned vets on this board, and I do not count myself in this elite group, are the best way to fight this problem. I can tell you from personal experience that I could have saved tens of thousands of dollars a year just in the past two years, if I had paid attention to these posts earlier.
My suggestion, if you buy raw cards, submit, and they come back unholdered, then post the scans and let us know who the dealer was. We should start to see some trends and maybe it will help people avoid these problems. We have all kinds of scan post threads on this board so why not start a new one? I have at least a dozen I can post right now. Cohocorp, what do you think???
The Cohocorp Official Post Your Unholdered Scans (scams??)...............
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
thats funny.
anything is fine with me as long as its a step in the right direction. if you noticed from my (beware of scammer george kritko) post earlier this week. there were a few pending deals with that guy and other baord members. so as soon as they saw my thread they were alerted and didnt lose their $.
a thread would be fine. i have nothing to post though as i dont know where the 2 or3 cards i bought in the past year which were deemed trimmed came from. its good to keep the lines of communication open on this subject. patterns will emerge eventually.