1978 Topps Baseball - Box Rip (OFF)

jeffcbay · February 13, 2007 7:56AM

Fellow collectors, I need your help on this one. Maybe some collectors who have experience opening wax boxes from the '70s, or even 1978 Topps wax boxes.

I recently bought a 1978 Topps Baseball Wax Box on ebay. Here is the Auction Link. He claims this box is "case fresh".

I've opened up exactly half of the packs (18 packs), and out of the 255 cards I've revealed, I haven't received a single solitary star card. The best card I've received is a #715 Jim Kaat. I've already had triples and quadruples of some commons, but not one card that books for more than $1.25. I have also not received any checklists (only team checklists), only two League Leaders (commons) and two Rookie cards (commons).

As far as the packs are concerned, they all seem to be sealed fairly well, or at least what I expected. Each pack has it's wax stain card first (oddly enough, the cards are facing the wax stain, so the stain is on the front of the card), and each pack has it's gum (leaving no stains on the back of the card touching the gum). I also noticed that each card is facing the same direction and they are all turned the same direction, which I found very odd.

As far as the conditions of the cards, the centering is what I expected, half of them are off, half of them are decent centering. What I did find odd was the random cards in the middle of the pack that would actually have slight creases in the middle of the card. How does that happen? Also, I expected the end cards to have some corner dings, but in these packs some of the middle cards have some pretty serious corner dings.

My question to you all is, is this normal to open 18 packs from a "case fresh" wax box and receive virtually no stars or even semi-stars? Is it normal to have all of the cards facing the same direction like that, and facing the wax side? This is my first box from this era, and I was at least expecting a $4 or $6 card at this point. Should I be worried? Should I not open the second half of the box? Should I rip this ebay seller a new one and demand a refund? Please help, this box is making me sick to my stomach!

theczar · February 13, 2007 8:11AM

tough call what to do. obviously low but all good feedback. i would venture that these packs were searched although i am no expert on that. i would contact him prior to ripping him a new one. once you do that civility has gone out the door. if he blows you off i would file a claim.

good luck. i would not be happy if i were in your shoes. sadly you may have learned a costly lesson about dealing in wax with unknown sellers. this board has many happy customers with BB exchange. you may not get the box for $450 (looks like his is $575) but you will get peace of mind and a quality dealer.

ldferg · February 13, 2007 8:19AM

i can't speak on the 78s but i did just rip an 80 box with similar results of star cards (actually i pulled 2 roses, a carlton, fisk and a yastrzemski) and the rest were minor stars or commons none of which would list in a price guide. one pack had a creased card but it was the back card and could've been from the packing. it was from a very reputable resource and i left it as bad collation. normally you pull at least 1 or 2 schmidts and lynn's from these boxes...

sorry about your experience but if you are receiving 3 and 4 of some commons you may have a box that has been piece-milled together from various other boxes. however, if the centering is consistent throughout you could've fallen in the bad collation as well. maybe softparade or the other 78ers can shed some light.

CDsNuts · February 13, 2007 8:25AM

Can you scan the bottom of one of the packs? Maybe we could tell if they've been resealed.

I've opened about a half a case of 78 Topps and it's not uncommon for the wax to be on the front of the card, and it's also not uncommon for the gum to not stain the card- This usually happens when they have been stored in a very dry place since the 80s so the gum will completely dry out. It's also not uncommon to have a creased card here and there, but you shouldn't have more than one or two per box. Based on what you've said, it's impossible to tell whether they have been resealed or not.

My advice would be to send a few packs to Steve Hart at the BBCExchange and ask him what he thinks- He'll usually do that at no cost. If he says they're resealed, you might have some resource considering he's the industry leader in vintage unopened material.

Lee

jeffcbay · February 13, 2007 8:47AM

WHOA!! Check out what I just noticed while organizing these cards! That is a PEN MARK by the number!! Come on!!

Here is a scan of some of the packs. While opening them, some packs just peel open very easily, and some actually tear the paper.

I'm hurting here...

DayneDrain · February 13, 2007 8:52AM

that seems very fishy...i would start by sending a polite yet stern email about this and see what is said about it...then take the neccessary steps...

almo

grote15 · February 13, 2007 9:04AM

Definitely resealed. The seals on back are not genuine. I wouldn't be surprised if these packs were "homemade" and put together with a stack of commons and a lot of wrappers. What size is the gum? Many resealers use late 80s gum, so if you're gum is the skinny pink kind, that's another tip-off. Don't bother opening the other packs--this box is garbage. Whether the seller was aware of this or not is another story, but you ought to file a Paypal dispute immediately if he doesn't resolve the situation to your satisfaction pronto. Good luck!

Boopotts · February 13, 2007 9:05AM

The fact that the corners of these packs show so much wear (or at least appear to in the scan) is not a very good sign at all.

Also, you know the 'case fresh' line is BS, since he'd get more money per box selling it as an entire case as opposed to one box at a time. Anytime I see that rehashed line I dial out the rest of the sales pitch.

jeffcbay · February 13, 2007 9:10AM

The pen mark blows me away. I'm emailing the guy.

I appreciate everyone feedback, and I would love to hear more. Thank you.

estang · February 13, 2007 9:11AM

That sucks. I'd feel sick too... Good luck & let us know what happens.

ldferg · February 13, 2007 9:16AM

i think the pen mark is key to your case. of course the seller can say you did it and it can go back/forth. good luck with the seller. can you file a paypal dispute on something like this if you've opened half the box already? maybe reimburse you 50%?

regarding the skinny gum. my 80s wax box had the skinny gum and came from a reputable dealer. what year did topps start using the skinny gum. i still have the packs and gum from the bust. i'm not intending to hijack this thread.

Buccaneer · February 13, 2007 9:24AM

There was a thread here a little while ago about someone else buying raw packs off of eBay and was surprised that 3 out of 10 were definitely resealed. I think the concensus was that it should be of no surprise if 9 out of 10 were resealed. There's no way anyone should buy raw packs or boxes unless you personally know the source or they come from bbex.

CDsNuts · February 13, 2007 9:25AM

Even if I hadn't seen the pen mark, I'd say the packs are definitely resealed. 78 wax was a pretty clean and consistent product in terms of even tightly wrapped packs, and the first pack is WAY off. The last pack is pretty fishy too. Plus the corner wear is bad, especially for case-fresh wax. He should reimburse you for the full box, and if he doesn't, make his life hell. For the fun of it, you can set up alt ebay accounts and bid on all of his merchandise ensuring he never sells anything to anybody ever again.

Howver, give him a chance to make it right before you become accusatory and/or leave him a neg. He might have bought them from the resealer and may be a victim like you. Either way, you should get a 100% refund without a doubt.

Lee

jeffcbay · February 13, 2007 9:32AM

I emailed him with a very polite and to the point email, explaining what I had found and with an attached photo of the pen mark. I requested a refund, so we'll see what happens then. If I don't hear from him, I'll go through Ebay/Paypal.

The worst part about it is, I don't normally buy high ticket items like this. I'm a hard working 30 year old who just enjoys the hobby. I wanted to crack a 29 year old box just for the thrill and have some of the cards graded to help fund my Ripken collection. It just sucks to have this happen. I'm bummin'.

tsalem · February 13, 2007 9:37AM

For a box thats case fresh... check the scan of the box on the bottom front...
this is not a case fresh box....check out the condition of it!
Fight this til the end!
The pen is also a dead givaway thats its tampered with

jeffcbay · February 13, 2007 9:39AM

Ironically, he also sent me one wax pack of 1982 Topps out of kindness, since he noticed I was a Ripken fan. I got more star cards out of that one pack (Seaver/Murray/Jenkins) than I did out of the (18) 1978 packs I opened! (yikes)

80sJunkie · February 13, 2007 9:54AM

Sorry to hear about your bad experience jeff. The scan of the back of your pack isnt the greatest but I can tell they are almost certanly resealed. those seals should have been alot tighter.

Ok i just grabbed 3 78 packs of the shelf. all the cards faced forward yes the wax was on the front of the card but half the pack was turned upsidedown so they were different/ plus check your gum the gum should be 2 1/4 inch by 1 1/8 alot of resealers use the wrong gum.

jeffcbay · February 13, 2007 10:01AM

Ding! Yep, MOST of the gum was 2-1/4" x 1-1/2", and there were about two packs that had 2-1/4" x 1-1/8" gum. *sigh*

80sJunkie · February 13, 2007 10:16AM

sorry jeff. I would definatly go after that guy. But the gum is almost always a tell. most resealers dont realize there using the wrong gum. up until early 80's the gum was a different size every year and even different sports from the same years had different sizes.

WinPitcher · February 13, 2007 10:49AM

That sux, I wonder how some of these scummy guys sleep at night?

Steve

hotmush · February 13, 2007 10:56AM

Perhaps during future rips we can start a gum file, with sizes of gum as to what they should be.

milbroco · February 13, 2007 10:57AM

I think you can call him. He listed his phone number in another item he sold. I don't want to list a phone number on here so check the depsciption on item # 150062002320. He lists his name as Dusty. Good Luck.
Bob

jeffcbay · February 13, 2007 11:00AM

Check out the other items he has soldin the past month. He was selling a box of !973 also. yuck

jeffcbay · February 13, 2007 11:02AM

<< <i>I think you can call him. He listed his phone number in another item he sold. I don't want to list a phone number on here so check the depsciption on item # 150062002320. He lists his name as Dusty. Good Luck.
Bob >>

Very valuable, thank you!!

Stone193 · February 13, 2007 11:42AM

Hi Jeff

Here's a 76 pack from a reputable dealer.

Not only is it cleanly wrapped but there is a perfect rectangular area in the middle of the back which is clearly dulled by the heat roller which seals the pack.

If you don't see well marked shiny areas on the right and left borders with a perfect rectangle in the middle that is dulled by the hot roller - then it has been resealed. It would be really hard for someone to do it as cleanly as the factory.

I'm not a pack expert - just providing this as background with the discussion.

The check mark on the card seals the deal IMO.

I'm sorry to hear about your purchase and wish you the best in getting a refund.
mike

softparade · February 13, 2007 11:57AM

Man that really blows ....

I am so sorry to read all of this. NOBODY loves 78's more then I do. I have to tell ya jeff, there is no way I would EVER buy a box like this off of e-bay unless the seller had the credentials of somebody like Steve Hart at the Baseball Card Exchange. I don't say this to be a wise a$$ either. Its just a lesson in reality man

good luck

Dan

jeffcbay · February 13, 2007 12:08PM

Dan, I appreciate the honesty and I respect your opinion. I've heard the BBCE come up several times on this board and yesterday was the first time I've ever been on his site. I was a victim of my own inexperience with pre-80's wax. I most certainly plan to give the BBCE my business in the future. I WILL get my refund from this guy, and I'll take that money to that site.

Thank you all for your help and knowledge. I will keep you posted once I hear back from this guy.

8irvin8 · February 13, 2007 12:13PM

Hello Jeff, You should file a complaint with Paypal now and escalate it to a claim, don’t wait for a response from the seller. When you file a claim they will pull the money aside from the seller account and put it in escrow until they decide what to do with your claim. If you wait the seller could close out the paypal account and you will be out the money. If they find in your favor you will have to pay to send the items back with tracking and signature confirmation. Just my opinion but I wouldn't want to be out $450 plus shipping.

Good Luck
Lenny

Carew29 · February 13, 2007 12:24PM

I just checked my 78's and they don't even look close to those packs. Bought mine from BBCE about 3 years ago.

flatfoot816 · February 14, 2007 12:41AM

I collect mostly vintage unopened packs. No question that those packs are re-sealed based upon the look of the back of the packs alone. The other evidence is just confirmation. I would never buy vintage wax from someone with 34 feedback. You are asking for trouble. For a bit more you can get a guaranteed unsearched box from Steve Hart, or some of the bigger auction houses. You clearly took a chance because of the low price, and got burned. If the price seems too low, it usually is for a reason. Sorry-stinks getting burned. We have all been there.

cohocorp · February 14, 2007 12:49AM

i would think that if it were really case fresh, he would have added a picture of the case also in the listing. i always did when i sold vintage wax. as you already know, its definately resealed. how did you pay, i.e. credit card thru paypal hopefully. this is certainly a scenerio of dispute because the product is "signifacantly other than described. " hope it all works out for you. keep us informed.

pat

jeffcbay · February 14, 2007 11:33PM

Okay folks, here is an update. The person I bought this wax box from on ebay honestly thought he had a legit box because he bought this box from a very reputable dealer. The seller contacted his supplier, and that supplier researched the batch of boxes that my box came from and found out that the rest of that batch was tampered with. So my seller's supplier reimbursed me fully and then some, I already have the refund, and I am shipping all of the stuff back to that supplier.

I just want to clear a few things up here. It was unfair of me to come onto this forum and blab about the ebayer who sold me this box before I contacted him first. My seller is NOT the one to blame here, nor is his supplier. My experience should NOT reflect poorly on the person I bought this box from, after all, he was ripped off too.

I want to thank all of you who helped me out the last couple days, I believe you me, I learned my lesson in buying wax boxes.

*collapses*

cohocorp · February 14, 2007 11:37PM

good to hear it got straightened out.

Skinpinch · February 14, 2007 11:49PM

It sounds like the seller is doing a nifty shift of the blame to get the heat off of his back. It seems rather quick to get a hold of his 'supplier' and then have that supplier inspect the rest of the batch so quickly....and even then to have the supplier quickly and readily relay the information that the whole batch is suspect, is quite a feat.

jeffcbay · February 14, 2007 11:55PM

We all spent the ENTIRE DAY yesterday dealing with this, tracking down where exactly the box came from. The supplier is very large and reputable, and the ebay seller should NOT be to blame here. The supplier took full responsibility for this box because the other boxes he had received with this one were also tampered with. I spoke with this gentleman personally and they are all stand up individuals. Don't let his low feedback fool you, he deals a lot outside of ebay.

Volver · February 15, 2007 1:09AM

It appears it is working out, but why would this big time vendor not know they had tampered with packs before now...seems a bit strange.

jeffcbay · February 15, 2007 2:04AM

Well he deals with thousands of boxes per month, I guess I can't expect him to check each pack of each box. I'm just glad it's over and it helped him spot his other tampered-with boxes.

Volver · February 15, 2007 2:07AM

I agree that with such volume you cannot inspect thousands of items, but you can inspect them before they arrive in the inventory. You have to know you are selling no matter the size of your operation.

Stone193 · February 15, 2007 3:18AM

<< <i>It was unfair of me to come onto this forum and blab about the ebayer who sold me this box before I contacted him first. >>

Jeff

I'm happy to see it worked out totally!

I can't agree more with your statement. We saw a few days ago where it backfired on a boardmember.

I didn't even remember who the seller was but it sounds like they are doing the right thing.

Good luck on the next purchase.
mike

jradke4 · February 15, 2007 3:26AM

make sure you leave postive feedback for the seller for correcting the issue with you, if you havent done so already.

its great to see people that are helpfull like that. there are some on ebay that wont do a darn to help.

cravetopps · February 15, 2007 3:49AM

Jeff....actually, I am glad you posted this. There were several extremely helpful posts regarding how to judge the authenticity of raw packs, particularly the scans from Mike. Maybe you jumped the gun a bit in terms of assuming the guy was not an ethical seller but frankly, we still really don't know how much he really knew, right? As long as he makes good on his promise to refund, then he did the right thing. But you did us all a service by posting it and making us all that much more aware of the problem and how to spot the fakes.

Cubby · February 15, 2007 4:26AM

It looks like some of you gumshoes have solved this case.

jeffcbay · February 15, 2007 4:34AM

Yes, I received my refund, and I left the seller positive feedback. He was very honest and helpful throughout the entire process.

I think this was a great learning experience for everyone (especially me). I'm not afraid to purchase another box from this person or even his supplier, now that I know them better. I will however be a lot more careful the next time I'm in the market for unopened boxes, and check out the packs carefully before ripping into them.

rbdjr1 · February 15, 2007 5:34AM

<< <i>I collect mostly vintage unopened packs. No question that those packs are re-sealed based upon the look of the back of the packs alone. The other evidence is just confirmation. I would never buy vintage wax from someone with 34 feedback. You are asking for trouble. For a bit more you can get a guaranteed unsearched box from Steve Hart, or some of the bigger auction houses. You clearly took a chance because of the low price, and got burned. If the price seems too low, it usually is for a reason. Sorry-stinks getting burned. We have all been there. >>

I would say not to have a star card in 18 packs is possible, but would be a rare occurance, plus the "pen check mark", plus the questionable scans of the "pack backs, plus a feedback less than forty, plus a "too good to be true" price.

My suggestion would be to send all the remaining, unopened packs to Steve Hart, and let him examine them. Ask him, if he could write "an expert opinion" letter for you.

Use his letter for your "paypal dispute/claim" (u did use paypal, right?)...

Good luck!

rd

cravetopps · February 15, 2007 6:44AM

"I'm not afraid to purchase another box from this person or even his supplier, now that I know them better."

word of advice, don't. Steve Hart is your man. I'm sitting on a case of 75 Topps Minis and he is the ONLY person on the planet I would have bought it from.

Steve has way too much to lose by tarnishing his reputation. Not saying the seller is a bad guy, just be prudent about where you buy your sealed wax.

Volver · February 15, 2007 8:51AM

Crave...you going to rip the case or sit on it for a bit? Reason I ask is it looks like you collect 75 mini.

grote15 · February 15, 2007 9:14AM

Jeff,

I'm glad the seller did the right thing for you and refunded your money. I understand why you'd leave positive FB in that case, but to be perfectly frank, this is one of the main reasons why a seller's FB rating is almost useless when it comes to evaluating who has legitimate product and who doesn't. For every guy like you who busts open a vintage box to make the painful discovery that the box has been searched, there are at least 10 other buyers who keep their box sealed in the closet. This wasn't the first bad 78 box he sold from this batch. I wonder if he contacted the other buyers to advise them that their packs are no good.

Steve Hart is top-notch, and there are other individual sellers on ebay who have genuine unopened product (after all, Steve purchases his product from private collectors, too, and not all vintage boxes, especially 70s stuff comes out of sealed cases because you just can't find sealed cases of early 70s stuff in the marketplace today), but the key is to do as much research as possible and to know what to look for. Most resealers, with a very few exceptions, leave tell tale marks behind.

Good luck in your future collecting!

jeffcbay · February 15, 2007 10:48AM

My feedback was this:

"Very Honest & Reputable Seller! I wish all sellers were like him, thank you."

The truth is he really was honest and is reputable. He was very professional and backed his product, even after I opened most of the pack I got a full refund.

Also, that was the only 1978 box he sold. Now his supplier on the other hand, that's who has the bad batch, and he still has all of those boxes, and HIS supplier is reimbursing him for all of them.

It's all just sounds too confusing, but everyone is happier and more educated in the end.

grote15 · February 15, 2007 11:13AM

Now his supplier on the other hand, that's who has the bad batch, and he still has all of those boxes,

Did he mention who this "supplier" was? I'm sure we'd all like to know so we can avoid him. I tend to agree with skinpinch's earlier post with regard to the supplier, but I'm glad you were able to get your money back in any case.

storm888 · February 15, 2007 11:25AM

My feedback was this:

"Very Honest & Reputable Seller! I wish all sellers were like him, thank you."

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

That was the correct FB to leave.

I wish all buyers would give MOST sellers an
opportunity to solve a problem b4 hitting the
NEG button.

RoarIn84 · February 15, 2007 8:46PM

Good job not jumping the neg feedback gun. that's a complete last resort. i'd have said something like "Honest seller. Dealt with problem in a prompt, professional manner".....that still cautions people w/o hurting the seller. but glad it all worked out. i've dealt with reseals before of high dollar wax, and it's like like being violated. you've invested a good chunk of money for the thrill of experiencing your hobby to its fullest and trying to relive the good old days, just to have that ripped from you. not only are you red-faced and humiliated, but you're also out the $$ and have the image of the guy who screwed you laughing in yr face. that's the dirtiest thing one could ever do. especially on the 78s!! it's soooo much fun opening that stuff....

1978 Topps Baseball - Box Rip (OFF)

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