How does PSA treat the card reverse?

basestealer · February 10, 2007 8:49AM

Let's say I have a card that is centered 45/55 on the front, has 4 razor sharp corners, full gloss, etc. The back appears miscut and is centered 90/10 top to bottom. How heavily will this affect PSA's grading opinion?

lawnmowerman · February 10, 2007 8:53AM

PSA Card Grading Standards

GEM-MT 10: Gem Mint.

A PSA Gem Mint 10 card is a virtually perfect card. Attributes include four perfectly sharp corners, sharp focus and full original gloss. A PSA Gem Mint 10 card must be free of staining of any kind, but an allowance may be made for a slight printing imperfection, if it doesn't impair the overall appeal of the card. The image must be centered on the card within a tolerance not to exceed approximately 55/45 to 60/40 percent on the front, and 75/25 percent on the reverse.
MINT 9: Mint.

A PSA Mint 9 is a superb condition card that exhibits only one of the following minor flaws: a very slight wax stain on reverse, a minor printing imperfection or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 60/40 to 65/35 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.
NM-MT 8: Near Mint-Mint.

A PSA NM-MT 8 is a super high-end card that appears Mint 9 at first glance, but upon closer inspection, the card can exhibit the following: a very slight wax stain on reverse, slightest fraying at one or two corners, a minor printing imperfection, and/or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 65/35 to 70/30 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

grote15 · February 10, 2007 8:53AM

I have PSA 9 cards with 55/45 centering on front and 90/10 on the back so they don't seem to hold the back centering in high regard. Personally, I think centering on the back should be 70/30 or better for a PSA 9 card, but that's just me.

tennesseebanker · February 10, 2007 9:07AM

In my experiences they dont grade back centering as harshly as front.

originalisbest · February 10, 2007 9:09AM

I would agree they often treat the backs as an afterthought, which has lead to some disappointing purchases on my part - in particular PSA often grades '65 BB the same "7" if the back is perfect, or has 2-3 white flecked corners, with the blue backing chipping away.

Naturally, any eBay scans of such didn't include a look at the back.

grote15 · February 10, 2007 9:22AM

Naturally, any eBay scans of such didn't include a look at the back.

Good point. Very few auctions picture the back of the card, even high dollar cards.

originalisbest · February 10, 2007 9:41AM

Every so often someone scans a pic of the back and that's nice of course. I don't usually bother asking, but on something like a Mantle I would - and never had a request refused yet; if they were to, you'd have to assume something wasn't kosher with the back.

Brian48 · February 10, 2007 10:01AM

I think 75/25 and 90/10 for the backs in gem mint and near mint respectively are quite generous. I not sure I agree with it, but now that it's institutionized, PSA should never change it.

basestealer · February 10, 2007 10:39AM

In examining this card again, I've determined that there is a very slight diamond cut on the back--at the worst point, the centering is no better than 98/2. I'm not sure what to do with it now. I wonder if it will get a MC designation because of this.

stevek · February 10, 2007 11:54AM

Always, ALWAYS get a scan of the back of the card especially if it's a high priced card. One of the first PSA cards I ever bought off ebay was a Topps 1961 PSA 9, no qualifiers, Gil Hodges, to start working on a high grade 1961 set. Got the card and the front was beautiful, but the back had about a nickel size ink smudge in the center so bad some of the stats couldn't even be read. I was p*ssed off like h*ll because the entire card, not just the front is important to me. I didn't want the card...so I turned around and sold it on ebay describing and showing the back and got only about half what I paid. A lesson learned.

originalisbest · February 10, 2007 11:56AM

Ain't it the truth stevek! I'd be livid too.

Uncbob · February 10, 2007 11:59AM

<< Always, ALWAYS get a scan of the back of the card especially if it's a high priced card. One of the first PSA cards I ever bought off ebay was a Topps 1961 PSA 9, no qualifiers, Gil Hodges, to start working on a high grade 1961 set. Got the card and the front was beautiful, but the back had about a nickel size ink smudge in the center so bad some of the stats couldn't even be read. I was p*ssed off like h*ll because the entire card, not just the front is important to me. I didn't want the card...so I turned around and sold it on ebay describing and showing the back and got only about half what I paid. A lesson learned. >>

What about PSA's rep --
That is who I would be Poed at

stevek · February 10, 2007 12:31PM

<< 

<< Always, ALWAYS get a scan of the back of the card especially if it's a high priced card. One of the first PSA cards I ever bought off ebay was a Topps 1961 PSA 9, no qualifiers, Gil Hodges, to start working on a high grade 1961 set. Got the card and the front was beautiful, but the back had about a nickel size ink smudge in the center so bad some of the stats couldn't even be read. I was p*ssed off like h*ll because the entire card, not just the front is important to me. I didn't want the card...so I turned around and sold it on ebay describing and showing the back and got only about half what I paid. A lesson learned. >>

What about PSA's rep --
That is who I would be Poed at >>

PSA is still the best grading company out there in my opinion. There is an old saying of "buy the card not the holder" which is what I do...but the only holders I've ever bought are PSA. I would trust SGC as well...I've just never bought one of their slabbed cards. They are the only two companies I trust.

-

basestealer · February 10, 2007 1:14PM

Here's a scan of two cards, one of which is the Dave Winfield in question. I've had quite a few cards graded for resale, but none of them had a reverse centering issue like this. Ignore the cat hairs. They collect cards too.

Is there a size limit on pictures? If so, here's the links
Obverse
Reverse

grote15 · February 10, 2007 2:07PM

Sharp cards, but the back of the Winfield seems even worse than 90/10 so my guess is that you'd wind up with a solid 8. The Rose card is sharp, too, but is it creased on the reverse on the right edge? Nice color on that one.

basestealer · February 10, 2007 3:14PM

I don't think it's a crease, but I'm not sure what it is. There is no raised or depressed area--it's completely smooth. And whatever it is won't rub off. So my quess is a print line or even paper loss.

WinPitcher · February 10, 2007 5:26PM

How does PSA treat the card reverse?

Not as strict as I'd like them to.

90/10 for a mint card does not cut it.

Steve

cardbender · February 10, 2007 6:07PM

I have two PSA 8 NQ 1969 Basketball cards I won on ebay in the past from two diff. sellers.

The backs are centered 0-100 left to right. Of course neither seller felt obligated to mention this fact in their description. But of course 'all graded card sales are final' was included in the description. Nice.

So apparently back centering doesn't mean a thing for a card in a PSA 8 holder. Not PSA bashing here, just stating the facts. Scans are available if anyone would like to see them.

I've seen a couple of PSA 9's with 5/95 centering too, but not too often. Mostly they're 10-90 or better at the worst on the back.

basestealer · February 10, 2007 6:37PM

cardbender that might be good news for me, as I am submitting these. Not sure if I should go with BVG which I usually use, or PSA. The Pete Rose card has me more worried than the Winfield now, because of the white line mentioned earlier.

RoarIn84 · February 10, 2007 10:03PM

that's a shame PSA doesn't really care about the back. THAT'S HALF THE CARD!!! Guess that's one advantage to Beckett...But, yeah, it would be unfair of them to suddenly change the rules and leave everyone with their misgrades.......

scottsusor · February 11, 2007 5:50AM

Just a thought, but try looking at it in these terms. The popular opinion (and PSA's too, most likely) is that in the majority of cases, its almost impossible to tell a PSA 9 NQ card from a PSA 10 card when viewing only the FRONT of the card. Therefore, the PSA 10 (Gem Mint) grade was specificly created to add the card BACK'S appearance to the grade. Thus, poor centering or some other defect on the BACK is allowed on a PSA 9 NQ but never on a PSA 10.

Cubby · February 11, 2007 5:54AM

"Guess that's one advantage to Beckett." Not sure about that one.
I once was the owner of a card with 9.5 centering. The front was near
perfect, but the reverse was not even close. (Approx. 85% to 15% L to
R) Although this post is not to bash Beckett, but for informational
purposes only.

Brian48 · February 11, 2007 6:23AM

<< "Guess that's one advantage to Beckett." Not sure about that one.
I once was the owner of a card with 9.5 centering. The front was near
perfect, but the reverse was not even close. (Approx. 85% to 15% L to
R) Although this post is not to bash Beckett, but for informational
purposes only. >>

Then that is an example of a complete mis-grading on BGS's part. Unless they've changed it (again), the below are BGS's last, published grading standands back when they had reputation of being an extremely hard grading company.

<< Pristine 10

Centering: 50/50 all around on front. 60/40 or better on back.
Corners: Perfect to the naked eye and Mint under magnification.
Edges: Perfect to the naked eye and virtually free of flaws under magnification.
Surface: No print spots. Flawless color, devoid of registration or focus imperfections. Perfect gloss, devoid of scratches and metallic print lines.

Gem Mint 9.5

Centering: 50/50 one way, 55/45 the other on front. 60/40 or better on back
Corners: Mint to the naked eye, but slight imperfections allowed under magnification.
Edges: Virtually Mint to the naked eye. A speck of wear is allowed under intense scrutiny.
Surface: A few extremely minor print spots, detectable only under intense scrutiny. Deep color, devoid of registration or focus imperfections. Perfect gloss, devoid of scratches and metallic print lines

Mint 9

Centering: 55/45 both ways on front. 70/30 or better on back.
Corners: Mint upon close inspection. A speck of wear is allowed under intense scrutiny.
Edges: Virtually Mint to the naked eye. Unobtrusive specks of chipping on the borders are allowed.
Surface: A handful of printing specks or one minor spot. Very minor focus or color imperfections. Clean gloss with one or two tiny scratches barely noticeable to the naked eye. One faint, unobtrusive metallic print line is allowed.

Near Mint/Mint 8

Centering: 60/40 both ways or better on front. 80/20 or better on back.
Corners: Sharp to the naked eye, but slight imperfections allowed under close examination.
Edges: Relatively smooth borders. Specks of chipping visible to the naked eye are allowed.
Surface: A few minor print spots. Very minor color or focus imperfections. Solid gloss with very minor scratches detectable only upon close inspection. Or a subtle metallic print line.

Near Mint 7

Centering: 65/35 both ways or better on front. 90/10 or better on back. Very slight diamond cutting is allowed.
Corners: Very minor wear on two or three corners is allowed.
Edges: Slight roughness, minor chipping or very minor notching is allowed.
Surface: A few noticeable print spots or minor speckling is allowed. Minor color or focus imperfections. Very minor border discoloration. A very minor wax stain on back. Solid gloss with a few minor scratches detectable upon close inspection. A few metallic print lines.

Excellent Mint 6

Centering: 70/30 both ways or better on front. 95/5 or better on back. Slight diamond cutting is allowed.
Corners: Fuzzy corners, but free of dings and fraying.
Edges: Moderate roughness, moderate chipping or minor notching is allowed.
Surface: Noticeable print spots. Minor color or focus imperfections. Minor border discoloration and color or focus imperfections. Minor wax stains or extremely subtle ink marks. Relatively solid gloss with minor scratches, but devoid of scuffing. Noticeable metallic print lines.

Excellent 5

Centering: 75/25 both ways or better on front. 95/5 or better on back. Slight diamond cutting is allowed.
Corners: Four fuzzy corners, a touch of notching or a minor ding is allowed.
Edges: Noticeable roughness - but no layering. Very slight notching or noticeable chipping is allowed.
Surface: Noticeable print spots. Minor color or focus imperfections. Minor border discoloration. Minor wax stains or very light ink mark. Some gloss lost from surface with minor scratches, but devoid of scuffing.

Very Good/Excellent - 4

Centering: 80/20 both ways or better on front. 100/0 or better on back. Moderate diamond cutting is allowed.
Corners: Slight notching or layering, or moderate dings are allowed.
Edges: Readily chipped or notched and/or slightly layered.
Surface: Heavy print spots. Hairline creases. Moderate color or focus imperfections. Moderate border discoloration. Moderate wax stains. Very light ink mark or tape stain. A good deal of gloss lost from surface. Very minor scuffing or an extremely subtle tear in the form of a touch of broken surface paper.

Very Good 3

Centering: 85/15 both ways or better on front. 100/0 or better on back. Moderate diamond cutting is allowed.
Corners: Slightly rounded or noticeably notched corners with slight layering is allowed.
Edges: Heavy notching, moderate layering or heavy chipping is allowed.
Surface: Heavy print spots. Very minor creases. Noticeable color or focus imperfections. Noticeable border discoloration. Noticeable wax stains. Light ink mark or tape stain. Very little surface gloss. Minor scuffing or a very minor tear.

Good 2

Centering: 90/10 both ways or better on front. 100/0 or offcut on back. Noticeable diamond cutting is allowed.
Corners: Noticeably rounded or heavily notched corners with moderate layering.
Edges: Severely chipped, notched or layered.
Surface: Severe print spots. Noticeable creases. Noticeable color or focus imperfections. Noticeable border discoloration. Heavy wax stains. Moderate ink mark or tape stain. A surface devoid of gloss. Noticeable scuffing or a noticeable tear.

Poor 1

Centering: 100/0 or offcut on front or back. Heavy diamond cutting is allowed.
Corners: Heavily rounded or heavily notched with noticeable layering.
Edges: Destructive chipping, notching or layering.
Surface: Severe print spots. Heavy creases. Severe color or focus imperfections. Heavy border discoloration. Severe stains. No original gloss. Heavy scuffing or a severe tear.

* Half-Point Grades

Please note that Beckett Grading Services provides final grades in half-point increments (i.e., 10, 9.5, 9, 8.5 etc.). Cards that are assigned a grade with a half-point increment typically share characteristics from both the level above and the level below the actual grade given.

**These are not rules, only general guidelines.

Below are some basic autograph grading standards. There are no half-point
grades, and the lowest grade is a 5.

Autograph Grading Scale (5 through 10):

10 - A beautiful, boldly signed autograph that appears nearly perfect to the naked eye. Under normal viewing, it looks like an aesthetically-pleasing autograph.

9 - This is a signature that is also very pleasing, but has slight imperfections that barely detract from the autograph. Very light bubbling or micro scratching is allowable, but no yellowing, fading, or smearing. Positioning should be nearly perfect – with just the very tips of a letter or two cut off or hidden.

8 - At this level, some flaws begin to stand out slightly. Signature is still solid and pleasing, but might be somewhat bubbled throughout, or have areas of minor scuffing/scratching that detracts from the aesthetic beauty of the signature. Only lightly visible yellowing or fading or smearing is allowed. A cut signature may only have 10% of the signature hidden (or missing, when referring to a sticker autograph). Only a very small tip of the signature may run off or bleed onto the edge.

7 - Flaws are evident, including heavy bubbling throughout, noticeable scratching, minor but noticeable yellowing or fading, small but obvious portions of smeared ink. Up to 20% of a cut autograph may be hidden, or 20% of a sticker auto may be missing. A portion of the signature may run off the card or may bleed onto the edge.

6 - Heavy flaws are easily visible and highly distracting, including bubbling to the point of portions of the autograph being essentially invisible, extremely distracting scratching, yellowing or fading, or significantly smeared ink on multiple areas of the autograph. Up to 35% of a cut autograph/sticker may be hidden/missing. Several letters of the signature may run off the card, bleeding onto the edge or opposite side of the card.

5 - Very heavy flaws that highly distract from the autograph, including portions of the autograph being completely removed or invisible, catastrophic scratching throughout the entire autograph, extremely heavy yellowing, massive fading of the entire signature, smeared ink throughout the entire autograph. Over 50% of a cut autograph/sticker may be hidden/missing. >>

Cubby · February 11, 2007 6:28AM

"Then that is an example of a complete mis-grading on BGS's part."
Yup

NickM · February 12, 2007 1:57AM

Sometimes I'm not sure they even looked at the back.

I recently received a slightly oversize PSA 7 with a miscut back (the text and logo on the top side of the back are partially cut off, and the text and top of the logo from the card below appear on the bottom side).

Add in the stack of 7 PSA 8 '73 OPC baseball I have (ebay pickups last month) with layered back corners or side dings/gouges.

Then add in a PSA 6 card with a 1/2" long back wrinkle extending down from the top middle and paper loss on some of the text in the middle (picked up around Christmas on eBay).

My pile of cards that I think PSA needs to buy back from me (In the case of the miscut back, because it's a tough regional, I'd want a qualifier and partial compensation rather than total buyback) has grown way too much lately.

Nick

Cubby · February 12, 2007 3:32AM

"Sometimes I'm not sure they even looked at the back."

How does PSA treat the card reverse?

Comments