What are the pros and cons of starting a PSA graded T201 Double Folder set?

NeilDowney

Hi Guys, Any advice on the pros and cons of starting a PSA graded T201 Double Folder set? I already have a PSA 3 Downey in my Thomas Downey player set so I am already 2% towards completion - lol. I think that I would be in the PSA 3-4 range based on prices and appearance for the grade. I will be the first to say that I know very little about turn of the century or even pre-war cards at that. I'd love to find a set that is outside of the 50s, 60s and 70s years that I find that I also end up with. I'd like to shed my normal cloak of comfort and perhaps jump into a totally different kind of set. I'd love to see some nice scans of ones in this grade range so I can get an idea of what to expect as in condition. Any advice would be helpful. Thanks for your time, Neil

fandango

I believe the 1911 T201 Mecca Double Folders are VERY underrated....these cards will be 100 years old in 4 years!!! The Folding design was revolutionary and they were made using a state of the art printing process known as COLOR HALFTONE RELIEF...Before these, most cards were made using the wood engraving process.......These cards, frequently confused as lithographs, are in fact halftone reliefs, not lithography....this is more easily seen using a 10X loupe, as you can see the Red, Blue, Yellow, and Black dots making up the halftone image....The oversize design is striking in the PSA holder, a true piece of century old artwork that showcases numerous HOF's...

As far as the condition of these cards go, many were miscut, having the beginning image of the adjacent card on its border....other frequent problems included creases and severely stained reverse sides....other problems include misalignment of one of the form color screens....Not many high end Examples exist....the color and crispness of the image is very important in this issue...here are some scans from my PC:

cravetopps

I think it is undervalued as well. I would be a buyer of this set. Reasonably priced as well.

fandango

to answer your original question, the pros are numerous, especially with such value now.....the cons are that no top 10 collectors have started this set except The Lone Star Collection...that means future competition for cards could heat up...

still, between the beauty of the cards, the design, and the numeorus HOF's, this is an underappreciated, classic Pre-war set.....Since the Library of Congress defines a cigarette card as " a 19th century mounted photograph", technically this in not a cigarette card even though they were distributed in packs of Mecca Cigarrettes of the AMerican Tobacco Company....the front of the card was not attached to the back like t206, this card was created by printing on the back and front to create the unique shared legs aspect....

the size of these cards and the reverse image and information about the players makes these more visually appealing than the t206....


Neil Downey? are you related to thomas downey? is it your grandfather?

RayBShotz

Interesting info and great scans on the set. I was not aware of the printing process on these.
Thanks.
RayB

fandango

RayB, a little more info for ya....the true name for the type of card is Chromoxylography....it was an off shoot of the Photomechanical Printing process invented by Frederick Ives of Cornell University.......the "ives Process" as it was known at the time used crossline halftone engraved electroplates to produce images.... this process revolutionized American Publishing because before this, each image took many many hours to create using wood etchings and was expensive.....this new process made it much cheaper, quicker and easier to produce images...now Publishers could include illustrations, cover art, and many others graphics that were once reserved for only the most expensive books and posters....

Eventually this process of printing made its wat to the baseball card field in the early 1900's.... the American Tobacco Company, having now to compete with Turkish Cigarettes (no cards were made from 1895 to 1909 because the Tobacco companies had a Monopoly and there was no need to add cards to compete--the monopoly was broken in 1908 under the Sherman Antitrust ACT), decided to make their brands of cigarettes more attractive and included color cards...the first was 1911 Mecca Brand double folders, the T3 Turkey Red Cabinets followed by 1912 Hassan Brand Triple folders....The "mecca , Hassan and Turkey Red" were Turkish style names to try to compete with the Turkish (camel) Brands....

The thing that makes these t201 cards so unique is not only the folding style, but also the attention given to the back of the card...this was the first issue to include color images on the reverse also! Truly a groundbreaking set! NOT to MENTION They were the first cards to have stats on the back!

RipublicaninMass

Also first cards to have stats, not sure if this was mentioned already

5STAT

This is a set that I've always been in love with!!

I had bought a set back in the late 80's from one of my better customers. He had 2 complete sets that his grandfather had handed down to him. He went through them and gave me the lesser condition set..which was still beautiful.

I held on to it until '94 when I was closing my retail store. Times were tough and we had another daughter on the way..so I sold my set to my lawyer. He still has it today..and it's killing me...he won't even consider selling it back.

Last year, I called the gentleman that I had purchased it from. He informed me that he still had his set...but wasn't willing to part with it...as his daughter is in 8th grade now....and he MIGHT be willing to sell it IF he comes up short for money for college!!

So looks like I'm SOL for another 4 years atleast!! lol

I saw my old set a few weeks back....judging from what I saw..they would be mostly 4's and 5's...but a couple looked like 6's or 7's...
Part that kills me...the other set is even nicer!!!

fandango

5STAT, neither set has been graded since? maybe you can get the set raw, and then submit them to PSA..these card look terrific in the new condomless slabs.....

a lot of the raw cards you see on ebay would grade PSA 1 or PSA 2....to have them raw in nice condition is a bonus!

Good luck in your quest to REACQUIRE this Monumental set!

5STAT

fandango.....each set still sits raw with their owners...it's killing me..lol

The sad part is..I had also sold my lawyer a 1950 Bowman football set that was NM or better all the way around. It was incredible...pack fresh.

I had brought it to Rotman's Collectibles years ago....but they wanted to pay 1/2 book....it was back in those days where it was 50% or nothing.
I sat on it and later turned it over for a cash/trade deal for material for my store.

That one kills me too..

I know one of the things that I took as trade was a case of 89 Hoops 1 basketball...for like $400...

ahhhhhhh the good ole days..

fandango

5stat,
i hope you pulled some David Robinsons from those Hoops packs...they were the most see through packs outside of cello packs...i have an unopened pack with David Robinson showing , that was a big card in the early 90's.....not sure about now though...

RipublicaninMass

<< <i>5stat,
i hope you pulled some David Robinsons from those Hoops packs...they were the most see through packs outside of cello packs...i have an unopened pack with David Robinson showing , that was a big card in the early 90's.....not sure about now though... >>



I have a hoops 1 and hoops 2 with robinsons showing, thought about sending em in for pack grading nostalgia

NeilDowney

Hi Guys, It has been great reading your stories. From what I have seen, the cards seem a little "washed" out. I wish that the colors were more bold. I love the coloring of the T3 cards. Hands down my favorite set for coloring. However, they are too far out of my reach pricewise. I do have a PSA 4 Thomas Downey T3 card in my collection though. It is the cornerstone of my Thomas Downey collection. By the way, Thomas Downey is a distant relative on my father's side. I was told this by my late uncle who was doing a family tree at the time. Does anyone have any of these cards for sale in PSA 3 or 4? I would like to get in a few more before I decide if they are right for me or not. Let me know, Neil

Wabittwax

If you are looking for a pre war set, I will always recommend t206's. I honestly don't know much about other sets but I've been dabbling with those lately. The demand is absolutely astonishing. There are over 70,000 graded copies and every time I sell one on ebay, it has 15 watchers and 12 bidders. Even for a common in junk form. Beat up raw cards sell just as well. People fight over them even though there are so many out there.

fandango

Neil, that washed out look is only on the lower graded examples...the higher grades (5 and up) have more vibrant colors....the cards were designed to look like water color paintings, so you see the look is what ATC was looking for....to me the size of thse cards make them more like pieces of art than cards (T206 too small in my opinion)...not to mention this t201 set many landmark firsts...truly a groundbreaking issue!

frankhardy

I have 8 of these that I just acquired in collection. I think they all will grade in the 3 to 4 range. The only flaw on these are the bottom corners being a little rounded. I think that all 8 are crease free and the top corners are EX to EXMT. Would they be worth $13 each (special) to have graded or just sell raw? I plan on Ebaying them in the near future.

fandango

Definately think you should get them graded...even PSA 3 in this set go for good premiums over raw.....