Is this wire photo auction for real?
XanaduNow
Posts: 1,718
Bobby Jones Wire Photo
$500+ with an hour to go
I don't know much about wire photos but I have seen them creeping up steadily recently but is this for real? What makes this photo so rare as opposed to other wire photos?
Arthur
$500+ with an hour to go
I don't know much about wire photos but I have seen them creeping up steadily recently but is this for real? What makes this photo so rare as opposed to other wire photos?
Arthur
0
Comments
SMR had an article last year (cannot recall when) regarding
wire photos.
I fear that the seller's use of the word "original" means
one thing to him, and a different thing to a serious collector
of "original" wire-photos.
Any recipient/subscriber to the wire-services would have been
able to print a nice looking photo to be readied for publication;
thousands of them.
The "original," as I understand it, IS THE ACTUAL original photo that
went out on the wire; not the one of many that was printed by
the service subscriber.
Most/many "original" photos will have the "slug" (suggested pic caption)
printed on a piece of cut-strip paper and pasted to the back of the photo.
Remember, there can only be one original picture; it was shot by the
photographer. It may have been owned by the photog or UPI/AP may
have owned it and kept it in their picture library; (photo morgue). Some
of those have sneaked away over the years, but the one for sale is not
one of those, IMO.
Looks like a picture printed at a local paper, and given to a scrapbooker
who pasted the caption on his collectible.
Original wire-photos can have great value, copies of them can have
value, also.
Look for the SMR article for a better explanation.
1.) Is there any way, or better yet, how did you come to your own personal conclusion that the slug attached wasn't the original? I've seen so-called wire photos with and without the slugs but is there any way to determine which ones were original and which ones were just attached to a second-generation photo?
2.) Is there any way to search the PSA website/database to find the article? I only have the actual issues for the past 6 months or so.
Thanks
Arthur
Edited to add: I found the PSA online library so hopefully I can find that article in there.
The paper remnants (by the glue spot) appear to be newsprint.
A real slug was a cut and paste of teletype paper (or typing paper).
From what he shows us of the picture, there was never a slug on it.
This can indicate that the pic IS the "original," IF the photog was
the source/collector of the picture. Absent a perfect paper
trail, and expert authentication, I would never buy an expensive
"wire-photo" that was claimed to be the actual original (shot/printed)
by the photographer.
But, most company-owned and catalogued originals were
slugged (before they went into the storage library). If not,
they would have little value to the company in out years;
nobody would know what the pix were.
There could be thousands of "second-generation photos." Each would
be "original," but none would be THE ORIGINAL photo. The subject
Jones pic is likely one of the former. Still has value, but probably not
anywhere near the EBAY price. Copied and kept by a newspaper
employee who liked Lou; he also kept the photo as it appeared
in his paper.
The article in SMR details the sundry generations and their relative
merits. Somebody must have kept a copy.
Baseball Card Digest also did a 2006 story, I think.
I found an article online from April '06 about PSA/DNA authenticating autographs with the help of Marshall Fogel and Henry Yee. It was interesting and touched upon the differences between a Type I, Type II, Type III and Type IV photograph but offered no info in regard to how one might go about spotting the differences themselves. This, of course, makes sense since the whole article read more like an advertisement for their book "A Portrait of Baseball Photography."
Apparently, I'm going to have to purchase their book since I can't seem to find out the "grading standards" for determining a photo's authenticity online. Not sure why this piece of information would be so secretive since the comparable standards for card grading are clearly identifiable on PSA's website.
For those unfamiliar with the varying "Types" of photos, here's some info ...
PSA/DNA Photograph Type Classification
Type I - A 1st generation photograph, developed from the original negative, during the period (within approximately two years of when the picture was taken).
Type II - A photograph, developed from the original negative, during the period (more than approximately two years after the picture was taken).
Type III - A 2nd generation photograph, developed from a duplicate negative or wire transmission, during the period (within approximately two years of when the picture was taken).
Type IV - A 2nd generation photograph (or 3rd or later generation), developed from a duplicate negative or wire transmission, during a later period (more than approximately two years after the picture was taken).
Needless to say, knowing the exact characteristics that separate the types and knowing how to spot them would go a long way in encouraging the collecting and purchasing of these photos. I can't imagine spending more than a whiskey bottle on a photo knowing I'm going to have to send it in to PSA/DNA to find out if I got a vintage photo or something that was printed 4 years ago.
Currently, the authenticating prices for PSA/DNA also seem a bit excessive. I'm assuming this is because the service just began and the company is relying upon a small circle of trained professionals to do all the authenticating. Hopefully, over time, more authenticators will be trained and employed by PSA/DNA and, thus, lowering the cost involved with authenticating these truly one-of-a-kind items (in some cases... hopefully... if you're lucky
I have just started to look at auctions for vintage post cards and photos of IBHOF inductees and I would very much like to pursue this branch of collecting. If anyone has any info whatsoever about how to spot fakes, forgeries and 4th-generation items I would be greatly appreciative.
Thanks again Storm. Your info has been extremely helpful.
Arthur
Solid guy.
Type III - A 2nd generation photograph, developed from a duplicate negative or wire transmission, during the period (within approximately two years of when the picture was taken).
They are still very collectible, though.
The winner of the Jones picture has bought pix from several dealers who
sell modern copies of original photos.
Most of those pix are NOT.....
Type IV - A 2nd generation photograph (or 3rd or later generation), developed from a duplicate negative or wire transmission, during a later period (more than approximately two years after the picture was taken).
Most on EBAY are "pictures of pictures."
/////////////////////////////////
No disagreement on that fact.
We were trying to get to the meaning of the
word "original," as used in the listing.
As the sundry list of types above shows, there
are originals and there are originals.
Joe
I certainly did not mean to dispute the validity or the quality of either the seller or the photo. I was simply questioning what it was about this photo that caused it to reach such a high final price. (photo ended at $676.67)
I've never dealt with the seller before and I've never heard anything bad or good about them previous to your statement so I have no reason to believe it is not authentic. I guess my point was "why this photo and not others?"
Basically, I like the idea of collecting vintage photos. I simply want to educate myself about what to look for in order to avoid overpaying for junk or not bidding high enough for quality.
Arthur
My mind was drifting off on martinique bay.
Its not that Im not interested, you see;
Augusta, georgia is just no place to be.
I think jamaican in the moonlight.
Sandy beaches, drinking rum every night.
We got no money, mama, but we can go;
Well split the difference, go to coconut grove.
Keep on talking, mama, I can hear
Your voice, it tickles down inside of my ear.
I feel a tropical vacation this year,
Might be the answer to this hillbilly fear.
I think jamaican in the moonlight.
Sandy beaches, drinking rum every night.
We got no money, mama, but we can go;
Well split the difference, go to coconut grove.
Voila! an american dream.
Well, we can travel girl, without any means.
When its as easy as closing your eyes
And dream jamaica is a big neon sign.
Just keep talking, mama, I like that sound.
It goes so easy with that rain falling down.
I think a tropical vacation this year,
Might be the answer to this hillbilly fear.
Voila! an american dream.
Yeah, we can travel, girl, without any means.
When its as easy as closing your eyes
And dream jamaica is a big neon sign.
Just think jamaican in the moonlight.
Sandy beaches, drinking rum every night.
We got no money, mama, but we can go;
Well split the difference, go to coconut grove.