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Select Uncirculated, Very Select Uncirculated, etc.
JoeLewis
Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭✭
What is the meaning of these terms I see all the time?
1. Select Uncirculated
2. Very Select Uncirculated
3. Choice Brilliant Uncirculated
4. Select Brilliant Uncirculated
1. Select Uncirculated
2. Very Select Uncirculated
3. Choice Brilliant Uncirculated
4. Select Brilliant Uncirculated
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
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<< <i>What is the meaning of these terms I see all the time?
1. Select Uncirculated
2. Very Select Uncirculated
3. Choice Brilliant Uncirculated
4. Select Brilliant Uncirculated >>
Nothing but hype, most likely.
According to ANA grading standards, "choice" uncirculated is supposed to refer to MS-65 and "select" to MS-63. But no one really knows what the adjectives represent any more, or which adjectives are supposed to mean a higher grade than the other.
And I doubt the people using these terms even know how ANA standards define "select" or "choice" anyway.
a particular dealer wants them to mean. There is no
current baseline established for these phrases. Before the
1 - 70 grading system took hold at the TPG companies, the
terms Select, choice, gem, choice gem and superb gem had
general industry meaning. However, today, they no longer have
meaning except for those few reputable companies that still deal
primarily in raw coins (Stacks).
Camelot
Select = 60-62
Choice = 63-64
Gem=65+
Rex
Borderline Unc. = harshly cleaned EF-AU
Select Unc. = Cleaned AU-55
Choice Unc. = Cleaned AU-58 on a good day
Gem Unc. = Ms-62 to MS-63 if you're lucky, cleaned AU-58 if not
If you think I'm being facetious, order some coins from one of those ads and send them right to PCGS for grading. These places avoid numerical grading because they know they will never slab at PCGS or NGC in the grade advertised.
Edited to add: The old definitions of these terms are correctly described in the previous post.
<< <i>The terms are meaningless. They may mean, whatever
a particular dealer wants them to mean. There is no
current baseline established for these phrases. Before the
1 - 70 grading system took hold at the TPG companies, the
terms Select, choice, gem, choice gem and superb gem had
general industry meaning. However, today, they no longer have
meaning except for those few reputable companies that still deal
primarily in raw coins (Stacks). >>
I just shopped at Stack's for the first time yesterday. I asked Scott M. about terms like "claims to choice," and he spelled out how this lingo relates to 70-point grading.
It was really a wonderful experience to flip through scores of raw gold coins and get honest recommendations from Scott about the relative strength about the store's own coins.
<< <i>If you're looking at one of those big, glaring, full page ads in a numismatic magazine,
Borderline Unc. = harshly cleaned EF-AU
Select Unc. = Cleaned AU-55
Choice Unc. = Cleaned AU-58 on a good day
Gem Unc. = Ms-62 to MS-63 if you're lucky, cleaned AU-58 if not
If you think I'm being facetious, order some coins from one of those ads and send them right to PCGS for grading. These places avoid numerical grading because they know they will never slab at PCGS or NGC in the grade advertised.
Edited to add: The old definitions of these terms are correctly described in the previous post. >>
This guy's right.. my advice is to not order from anybody who still uses these terms, because usually the only ones that still do are the big boys that peddle the whizzed garbage. Heck even with circulated coins... anything I ordered such as a 1909-s VDB cent will almost always be a full grade lower then what is specified when ordering.. (example... an XF-40 arrives as a VF-20)
They can get away with it as long as they have a good return policy and a certain percentage of buyers keep the coins.
<< <i>What is the meaning of these terms I see all the time?
1. Select Uncirculated
2. Very Select Uncirculated
3. Choice Brilliant Uncirculated
4. Select Brilliant Uncirculated >>
My opinions:
Select Uncirculated/Select Brilliant Uncirculated: MS63
Very Select Unicrculated: MS64
Choice Brilliant Uncirculated: If "select" terminology is used, then MS65 (a la old Bowers & Ruddy catalogs). If "select" is not used, then MS63 (a la Stack's and old Akers/Paramount catalogs).
And for the record, I find descriptive grades to be at least as meaningful as numerical grades, and they don't lend themselves to a pseudoscientific understanding of grading as numerical grades often do.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>I agree that it's basically meaningless now, but I think at one time:
Select = 60-62
Choice = 63-64
Gem=65+
Rex >>
That's the way I done growed up with'em ('cept we never used "select"). UNC was MS60, BU was MS61-62, Choice BU was 63-64, and Gem BU was MS65 and up.
<< <i>And for the record, I find descriptive grades to be at least as meaningful as numerical grades, and they don't lend themselves to a pseudoscientific understanding of grading as numerical grades often do. >>
Yea, verily.
If the coin is a great MS63 but not quite a solid 64, it should sell for what it is (i.e. not at MS63 Grey Sheet or [heaven forbid] Blue Sheet, but not at 64 pricing, either). Doggedly sticking to "scientific" numbers to steal a coin from a buyer or seller is a poor negotiating tactic.
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>If you're looking at one of those big, glaring, full page ads in a numismatic magazine,
Borderline Unc. = harshly cleaned EF-AU
Select Unc. = Cleaned AU-55
Choice Unc. = Cleaned AU-58 on a good day
Gem Unc. = Ms-62 to MS-63 if you're lucky, cleaned AU-58 if not
If you think I'm being facetious, order some coins from one of those ads and send them right to PCGS for grading. These places avoid numerical grading because they know they will never slab at PCGS or NGC in the grade advertised.
Edited to add: The old definitions of these terms are correctly described in the previous post. >>
Yeah, I was looking at an add in Coinage magazine, and Jules Karp C & B, Inc has $10 liberty gold as follows:
VF.........................$315
EF.........................$319
AU........................$325
Select Unc.............$339
Very Select Unc.....$359
I was just wondering if I paid the extra $20 (to get from select unc. to very select unc.) if I would really get a different coin.
US and British coin collector, and creator of The Ultimate Chuck E. Cheese's and Showbiz Pizza Place Token & Ticket Guide
<< <i>
<< <i>If you're looking at one of those big, glaring, full page ads in a numismatic magazine,
Borderline Unc. = harshly cleaned EF-AU
Select Unc. = Cleaned AU-55
Choice Unc. = Cleaned AU-58 on a good day
Gem Unc. = Ms-62 to MS-63 if you're lucky, cleaned AU-58 if not
If you think I'm being facetious, order some coins from one of those ads and send them right to PCGS for grading. These places avoid numerical grading because they know they will never slab at PCGS or NGC in the grade advertised.
Edited to add: The old definitions of these terms are correctly described in the previous post. >>
Yeah, I was looking at an add in Coinage magazine, and Jules Karp C & B, Inc has $10 liberty gold as follows:
VF.........................$315
EF.........................$319
AU........................$325
Select Unc.............$339
Very Select Unc.....$359
I was just wondering if I paid the extra $20 (to get from select unc. to very select unc.) if I would really get a different coin. >>
"Very Select Unc.....$359" is one more minute in the polishing cloth, IMO.
There is no Santa Claus in numismatics.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>What is the meaning of these terms I see all the time?
1. Select First Strike
2. Very Select First Strike
3. Choice Brilliant First Strike
4. Select Brilliant First Strike >>
Things to come.........!!!.......
<< <i>I will not buy from any dealer that does not use numerical grading because you never know what you will get. I suppose that can be true of dealers that use numerical grading too, but vague terms like "select" and "choice" just leave too much to the imagination, in my opinion. While were at it, what is "premium quality brilliant uncirculated?" .
You do realize that at best numerical grades are nothing more than the abbreviations of descriptive grades? I've purchased from dealers that use numerical grading, descriptive grading, and even no grading. Granted, in the last ten years or so the vast majority by far of my purchases have been at coin shows where I can see the coin.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>You do realize that at best numerical grades are nothing more than the abbreviations of descriptive grades? I've purchased from dealers that use numerical grading, descriptive grading, and even no grading >>
Yes, I do realize that. One of the best coin graders alive, Julian Leidman, uses only adjectival grading. However, he DOES tell you, in numerical terms, what he calls "choice," "very choice," etc. Link
The bottom line is, find a few dealers that you like and trust, and buy most of your stuff from them. Or, like you said, buy at shows where you can grade them yourself.