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What is a "puttied" gold coin and how do you identify one?

kmcoinkmcoin Posts: 64
in U.S. Coin Forum

What does it mean if somebody says a gold coin has been "puttied"?

How do you identify one?
"All that is gold does not glitter..."
-JRR Tolkien

Comments

  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    I think it means that putty is used to conceal a problem. prolly a scratch.

    Steve
    Good for you.
  • dragondragon Posts: 4,548 ✭✭
    Putty can refer to any substance used to fill in or smooth out bagmarks, planchet flaws, or other imperfections on a coins surface.

    After a coin is puttied, usually another substance is applied over the putty or the coin is then AT'd to either mask or try and match the coins original color and surface.
  • dragondragon Posts: 4,548 ✭✭
    Puttied coins can usually be easily identified under magnification or by tilting the coin under a flourescent light source where the puttied area will stand out by not matching the coins original color and/or surface texture.
  • LongacreLongacre Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
    RYK posted a bunch of great threads on this topic.
    Always took candy from strangers
    Didn't wanna get me no trade
    Never want to be like papa
    Working for the boss every night and day
    --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
  • MadMartyMadMarty Posts: 16,697 ✭✭✭
    Just ask Laura...
    It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!

  • foodudefoodude Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭
    Does a blacklight (UV) helpimage
    Greg Allen Coins, LLC Show Schedule: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/573044/our-show-schedule-updated-10-2-16 Authorized dealer for NGC, PCGS, CAC, and QA. Member of PNG, RTT (Founding Platinum Member), FUN, MSNS, and NCBA (formerly ICTA); Life Member of ANA and CSNS. NCBA Board member. "GA3" on CCE.
  • kmcoinkmcoin Posts: 64


    << <i>Just ask Laura... >>



    Dare I ask who Laura is? image
    "All that is gold does not glitter..."
    -JRR Tolkien
  • DUIGUYDUIGUY Posts: 7,252 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Just ask Laura... >>



    Dare I ask who Laura is? image >>



    imageimage
    “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly."



    - Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
  • kmcoinkmcoin Posts: 64


    << <i>RYK posted a bunch of great threads on this topic. >>



    Yes..I've read 2 of those. They are very interesting...although given the difference
    of opinion it seems very hard to discern puttied vs. non-puttied from pictures. I suppose
    in hand examination and some expert education are needed (ie. somebody who
    can point out "this is a sign of putty...this is not..etc").

    "All that is gold does not glitter..."
    -JRR Tolkien
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ...it seems very hard to discern puttied vs. non-puttied from pictures.

    You are going to have a hard time learning about puttied coins from photos. Sometimes, you actually have to look at the actual coins to learn something about them. image The Heritage Signature auction is typically a great place to learn about puttied gold, but you will probably need someone to point it out to you.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • 410a410a Posts: 1,325 ✭
    I think putty is one of the scariest things out there next to an expert coin doctor who imitates natural toning. Why? Not so much the in hand examination of a coin, but so many dealers sell online send pictures and so much coin auction activity being done online. If a coin can get by TPG then if it gets sent to you and you see putty it is a let down and a waste of money just with the postage.
    RYK got a link to his threads? How can I see them? Regards, Michael
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Just ask Laura... >>

    Wow. No reference to Laura until the fifth reply! You guys are slipping. Whoever picked the "over" wins this one... image
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    despite what the experts here claim, a puttied coin is not so easily identified. perhaps the only time it can be seen that something has been done is after a period of time has elapsed, several months, by which time the person doing the deed is gone and the coin has been encapsulated and sold on down the line.

    don't get me wrong, i don't claim to be able to identify a puttied coin. i just think it's a bit misleading when some members claim to be able to tell when in reality, it isn't necessarily the case. i'm sort of used to that, though, since many of those same experts are able to identify all the fraud perpetrated on us.image
  • saintgurusaintguru Posts: 7,727 ✭✭✭
    Putty is a wide variety of substances used to fill in marks or cover blemishes on coins.

    I have found that the most common substance used on gold is simply "nose grease". That's exactly what it sounds like...it's just a schmeer that covers light scratches. After a number of years it creates a blueish haze. The good news is that this is almost always easily removed...sometimes with great ease...like a dry Qtip.

    The true putty expert is Doug Winter, aka Mr. Puttysniffer. image
    image
  • kmcoinkmcoin Posts: 64


    << <i>
    RYK got a link to his threads? How can I see them? Regards, Michael >>



    Here are the 2 I referred to:

    Thread1

    Thread2
    "All that is gold does not glitter..."
    -JRR Tolkien
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>despite what the experts here claim, a puttied coin is not so easily identified. perhaps the only time it can be seen that something has been done is after a period of time has elapsed, several months, by which time the person doing the deed is gone and the coin has been encapsulated and sold on down the line.

    don't get me wrong, i don't claim to be able to identify a puttied coin. i just think it's a bit misleading when some members claim to be able to tell when in reality, it isn't necessarily the case. i'm sort of used to that, though, since many of those same experts are able to identify all the fraud perpetrated on us.image >>



    I do not consider myself an expert, nor do I think puttied coins are easily identified. If they were, they would not continue to get slabbed. Over time, often the foreign material clumps and makes it quite obvious. The coin I posted above had more make-up on than Elizabeth I, sitting at court. If I showed you the coin at lot viewing, you would have no trouble recognizing that that it was puttied. I sat with airplanenut, and he showed me a puttied Indian half eagle. It was also quite obvious. Many times, it's subtle, and I have missed it and bought puttied coins in the past.

    The key is too look at as many coins in your area (be it 19th century gold or Jefferson nickels) and learn the range of appearances a coin may have. Any deviation from this range should cause one to be suspicious.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Are coins other than gold puttied? I assume ATing is different than puttying.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,799 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Are coins other than gold puttied? I assume ATing is different than puttying. >>



    From what I have heard (though I do not view them and have no first-hand experience), Morgan cheeks are commonly puttied.

    Additionally, apparently there is a cottage industry of taking baggy 61/62 generic $20 Libs, puttying them, and getting them into 63/64 holders. There is enough of a price spread from 62 to 64 to make this worthwhile. Again, no first-hand experience in this area.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
  • dragondragon Posts: 4,548 ✭✭
    <<< I do not consider myself an expert, nor do I think puttied coins are easily identified. If they were, they would not continue to get slabbed >>>



    They as well as other problem coins continue to get holdered because the services will not sacrifice the time (time = money) required to view any suspect coins under strong magnification which will typically easily reveal even the best putty jobs or other doctoring.

    What looks acceptable or completely undetectable with your eyes or even under 5-10X magnification will usually easily stand out like a sore thumb under 20-50X magnification or even stronger. The problem is this would require extra time (time = money) for the grading services, and it's far better from a profit standpoint to just allow a very small percentage of problem coins to slip through the cracks and then buy them back if they're spotted at a later date.
  • kmcoinkmcoin Posts: 64


    << <i><<< I do not consider myself an expert, nor do I think puttied coins are easily identified. If they were, they would not continue to get slabbed >>>



    They as well as other problem coins continue to get holdered because the services will not sacrifice the time (time = money) required to view any suspect coins under strong magnification which will typically easily reveal even the best putty jobs or other doctoring.

    What looks acceptable or completely undetectable with your eyes or even under 5-10X magnification will usually easily stand out like a sore thumb under 20-50X magnification or even stronger. The problem is this would require extra time (time = money) for the grading services, and it's far better from a profit standpoint to just allow a very small percentage of problem coins to slip through the cracks and then buy them back if they're spotted at a later date. >>



    Are there any good books that go into how to identify doctored coins under magnification?

    thanks
    Ken
    "All that is gold does not glitter..."
    -JRR Tolkien
  • DoogyDoogy Posts: 4,508 ✭


    << <i>RYK posted a bunch of great threads on this topic. >>



    yeah, I remember that RYK had a doctored/puttied gold coin in PCGS plastic awhile back
  • cartwheelcartwheel Posts: 845 ✭
    Here's what my local dealer said about a gold coin in PCGS plastic that had "turned" in the slab:

    I took it back to the dealer and he said he thinks it was thumbed, and now the oil has dissipated (as opposed to putty, which he said would look crusty over time).

    Here's a link to the thread:

    Linky

    Cartwheel
    Cartwheel's Registry Sets

    Cartwheel's Showcase Coins
  • 410a410a Posts: 1,325 ✭
    Cartwheel, RYK, KM thank you for the links and the help. I have a black light does this help even more in locating the "makeup"
    Regards, Michael
  • SkyManSkyMan Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm NOT a gold person, but it would seem to me that all of us that have spent any amount of time in the numismatic trenches have seen a fair amount of gold that has turned in the slab to show the puttying. Wouldn't the owner of a puttied coin, after it has sat in his/her inventory for XYZ period of time, send it in to PCGS to get the coin appropriately downgraded and get some money back from PCGS? Wouldn't PCGS be pissed off at having to pay out for these coins and doesn't PCGS have records of who submitted the coins in the first place, and wouldn't it be in PCGS's interest to expose who is doing this sort of chicanery?
    Toned Franklins

    U.S. Type Set

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