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OK--THATS IT--I've HAD IT--TIME FOR A RANT--I can't hold back any longer!
KalineFan
Posts: 868
I am really getting tired of getting cards in the mail off ebaY and having cards not even close to what they are supposed to be.
FEEDBAG BAY obviously could care less about this as long as they get their fees.
I know, I know, name names, but that doesn't prevent it from happening again. But for the love of.....uh...well anything!
If you don't know how to grade cards raw, then send them to PSA or SGC for grading! This GUESSING game is really
trying my patience and I am just sick and tired of #%*#&$#^)%^ around with this SH*****!
It is a waste of time, effort and money! It used to be when someone graded a card NM, you might get a NM minus or
even an EX/MT. But, when I bid strong on a card that is NM/MT and it comes in with a CREASE, I don't care what it
TECHNICALLY is, IT HAS A CREASE ! I know we all miss things occasionally. Look at when we all send cards in for
grading and that one card, we did not look at close enough at it and missed something.
But, this is different! If you are putting a card up on ebaY-AND I DON'T GIVE A SH** if it is $1000 value or 15 cents,
look it over before you put it up for auction! If you don't deal in cards, have someone else look at it. Put the REAL
grade up on it.
Send them in for grading, just don't put em up without knowing what the ^%&#*$# you are doing! I can't tell you
how many in the last year, I have let slide, simply because it wasn't enough money to mess around with. But, so
far this year, I have received about 20 items and out of those 20 items only about 5 or 6 were accurately described.
IS THERE ANYTHING ANYONE CAN SUGGEST WE CAN DO ABOUT THIS or are we destined to live with this on FEEBAY
forever and ever and ever and ever and ever?
There! Now, I feel about 2% better!
Tony
KalineFan
0
Comments
Again, I'm sorry for this and will issue a full refund, and please don't let this deter you from bidding on my auctions in the future....we all
miss one once in a while.
Thanks-
Claude (1966CUDA)
Very mature and reasoned response. It would have been easy for this to turn into a flame war, but you showed true character when you owned up to your mistake without excuses or defensiveness. Well done! I, for one, will now seek out your auctions.
Bob
bobsbbcards SGC Registry Sets
I do empathize with you Tony as it's a let down beyond the price of the card.
although, I certainly appreciate the honesty of coming out and telling all about it. That is rare these days.
I too, have purchased many great cards from Claude in the past and never ever had a problem. I knew you
would take care of it.
It was another (NON-Board member) that I was disgusted about.
Tony
Someone above mentioned that PSA had too strict of grading. It's udderly amazing( And right now I'm NOT referring to him, as I know who he is but have never dealt with) but when they sell they grade one way. When they buy they grade another way. Somehow this is exceptable in their own eyes. We have to have some sort of standards, both in buying( what to expect) and in selling(what you can expect ). I don't like how PSA grades sometimes. I have numerous cards where the lesser graded card is much better than the higher. But I also know that without standards, someone's lower values are just as good as someone else's higher values . At least, they think , intheir own minds.
When is a dishonest person not a dishonest person ? When they don't like the name. When is a theif not a theif ? Same answer, when they don't like the name. These type of people squeel the loudest , when their deeds are done to them. It's ok for them to lower their standards on the sell and raise the standards when they buy.
I've heard it said that " If you lend someone $20.00 and you never see them again. Its probably worth it." People have and do make honest mistakes. Theives calculate. Please leave the theives to your competetors, its that easy. You can not change them, but you can change where you spend your money.
I think this is a combination of (1) sellers not knowing PSA standards, (2) sellers having no idea how to grade (some will admit to this in their ads, others call cards "excellant (sic)", "wow", "nice" etc.), (3) sellers wishing their cards are the grade they advertise, but suspecting they may not be and, yes, (4) fraud.
My solution is to mainly buy certified cards. When I do buy the occasional raw card, I understand it is a crap shoot.
It also helps to buy raw only from sellers with excellent reputations and good feedback from buyers of their raw cards.
What I meant in my previous board was that some sellers are not familar with the PSA grading standards and donot understand them thus the misgrading sometimes as listing something NRMT when in fact it is EX-MT or EX+, I know when I sell raw cards I try to give them the grade I believe PSA would give them and if it is one of those sliders that might get say a PSA 8 Nm-Mt I wil list it at the lower grade of Nm or Nm+. What I meant by Strict grading is that alot of people don't understand PSA grading standards because they donot deal in PSA ,GAi or Scg graded cards. I have bought quite a few 1972 Topps BB raw listed as NM-MT and Mint only to be diaappointed by them being NM or even worse. As 1 person said it is a crap shoot, I just remember who I bought the over graded items from and never do business again with them, I also look to see if they have a reasonable return privilige and what their feedback is. Most people are honest and some are just crooks and or quacks. Just wanted to clarify my last board.
Steve
I know this doesn't help with your current issue. Good luck in the future.
Arthur
PS. Also, I'd like to commend '66cuda as well. That's a class response and he didn't even wait to make sure it was him that was being called out (which it wasn't). I will also seek out your auctions. Sell any boxing cards?
Agreed Steve.
I buy only graded on eBay, but have bought some raw cards at times. Looking for cards that would grade 5-6 is a lot easier than looking for cards that would great 8 and higher however.
ND - gotta give ya credit. You found a way to spam disguised as a response to a thread!
"Grading cards is not ROCKET SCIENCE" All you have to do is look at the card with just a 5 power magnifier and
look at the corners, the surface and the edges. Look at the front and the back. Find a couple flaws? Then they
are NOT.....and I repeat this.....THEY ARE NOT NM or better. Flaws are just that! They are....FLAWS!
That is why a card that is normally nm/mt (PSA 8) with a paper crinkle or a suface bend gets a 4 or 5 instead of
an 8.
Once again, as WIN PITCHER said...."GRADING CARDS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!"
I will repeat one more thing....I don't care if I paid 15 cents or $1500, a problem is a problem!
Wow, now I feel 4% better!
Tony
KalineFan
<< <i>Find a couple flaws? Then they
are NOT.....and I repeat this.....THEY ARE NOT NM or better. >>
Well, yeah, but it depends what the flaws are. Honestly a PSA 7 isn't that sharp of a card. Creases, yeah, it's not going to get a 7. But if you put a 7 under a magnifier, you probably won't find even one truly sharp corner.
I never held SCD responsible for the over graded cards that dealers advertised in SCD back in the day.
The irony is that PSA was created to protect you from this and your on PSA boards ranting about how people are over grading raw.
Duh!
Loves me some shiny!
<< <i>IS THERE ANYTHING ANYONE CAN SUGGEST WE DO ABOUT THIS? >>
Tony,
Besides obviously only buying graded cards, I think the biggest thing every collector could do to help turn the tide a bit... is to start leaving more negative or neutral feedback on ebay when it's really deserved.
I'm not talking about whacking some poor weekend seller over one missed spider wrinkle out of the 300 cards he listed correctly ... I'm talking about the tons of raw card sellers on eBay (many of them power sellers) that continuously over grade, misrepresent, and purposely under protect their cards in shipping.
Many of them do these things on purpose. Because they've learned that they can get away with it, and still maintain a fairly respectable feedback rating. For every 1 negative they get, 100's of other buyers will let them slide, or give them the benefit of the doubt, or just chalk it up to a learning lesson, etc. The feedback system on eBay has turned into a joke. The sellers can either hold feedback hostage or they hide behind the old "just return the cards and I'll refund your money" BS.
I always love that last scenario .... Let's see, you completely lied about the condition of your cards in the auction, you overcharged me for basic shipping, gave me a terrible combined shipping discount, added in some BS insurance charge (that you didn't use), then tossed all of the cards into a box (half protected) so they'd bounce around a little, and maybe I'd be stupid enough to blame all of those dinked up corners on my postman. (but I'm pretty sure my postman didn't open up the box and make those 20 year old rubber band marks and gum stains appear all over these supposedly NM/MT cards?)
Now you want me to spend an hour of my time to e-mail you back, wait for your reply, rewrap the package, drive to the post office, wait in line, fill out the forms, buy the delivery confirmation, mail it all back to you, wait to hear if you received it, e-mail you again 10 days later because I haven't heard from you ... then when the whole process is finally over, you Paypal me my $18 dollars back (which was just the winning bid amount) and I'm supposed to be a happy camper?!
Let's see, I'm out all of my shipping costs plus the new return shipping costs. Not to mention the time, effort, e-mails and frustration involved.... and let's not forget the fact that I'd been searching for these cards for over 6 months and got them at a really, really good price. Of course, I also passed up on another sellers similar auction because your cards looked a little bit nicer. .... Well, at least the top 4 cards that you had fanned out in your scan ... to cover the pile of garbage you had lying below it. And, oh yea ... you also lied and tried to scam me! Yea, you deserve a positive for giving me my $18 back!
Ooops, sorry ... I got off on a little rant of my own there. ;-)
But my point is that there seems to be a lot of this type of nonsense that goes on (especially in the lower dollar 60's, 70's and 80's raw card sets and batches). The sellers are just playing a numbers game ... knowing that buyers are hesitant to give out negatives and neutrals.
I think if everyone started giving out feedback like it was supposed to be handed out, (using the real definition of the 3 words "positive, neutral, and negative") you'd see some of these sellers start to straighten up their act, as their ratings started to dive.
If you're worried about the retaliatory hits, then just use one ebay name to sell under, and a different one to buy under.
I guarantee if you go leave the appropriate feedback for the "15 out of 20 bad deals" you say you had last month .... you'll feel at least 50% better!
Mike
This sums it up. Can you imagine that every time you filed a legitimate consumer complaint against WalMart, Best Buy or some other retailer that your credit score would drop?
The feedback system does not reflect reality. EBAY knows it and they don't want to change it because it could potentially hurt sales. In the real world, do retailers get to rate customers?
Seller feedback should be restricted (not eliminated) to control retaliatory feedback. We will never fix this situation as long as retaliation persists.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
I too have been dissapointed with many of my purchases of cards and sets from Ebay sellers from overgrading thier cards and not just by a tad either.I have been a hobbyist for many years and occasionally sell on Ebay.I have been called a very conservative grader by many.I am not a proffessional grader by no means but I do study cards closely before issuing a grade to them not all sellers are like that.
I was never into the graded card scence till the last 4 years when I kept recieving many overgraded cards and sets therefore over paying big time in some cases.I have never sent a card or set back as my time to spend with the hobby is too restricted because of occupational resopnsiblities 11 to 12 hours a day.I only buy graded singles now(90%) of the time and sets from trusted sellers only.I do not always go with the guy with all the glitzy advertising as many times thats when I get hooked in and buy the overgraded sets.
I guess you can sum it up as that when you buy raw its a game of chance.However there are some great sellers of raw material out there unfortunatley they do not always have what I want.
From another Tony whos favorite Tiger of all time is Al Kaline as I grew up in Detroit.
I recently purchased some stuff raw from an array of sellers. Cards that for the most part do not show up in graded form and rarely are seen at the dealers tables. Cards like a 1990 Topps Andre Ware (heisman), 95 SP Rashaan Salaam, 83T Kenny Easley (though 4SC has put some 9's up lately), 93 Wild Card Gino Torretta, 93 SP McGinest. I just purchased a 6 ct lot of McGinest cards advertised as "Sharp corners, pack fresh..." not a single one is gradeable. Not one. In fact, I would venture a guess that 4 of the 6 would grade a 6 or less. I am sending one in, with the hopes it can get an 8 but a more realistic expectation is a 7. A Ty law I purchased raw met the same fate. I purchased a Salaam about a year ago from a seller that described it as "fresh from a box break". Funny, it got returned to me as recolored. So I bought another one, described similarly...might be a 7. Bought a 10 ct lot of 84 Topps Morten Anderson rookies in the hopes I could find a 9 and then replace the one I took from my set. They too were all described as NM/MT or better. 6 of the 10 had at least 2 dinged corners, the others are all OC with at least one dinged or very soft corner. The Torretta I bought BIN out of a power sellers' store. I get an email stating that he doesn't have it but he'll give me what I paid for it towards any other card he has. Luckily, I hadn't paid yet.
I do have a few good ones that have worked out, but 9/10 have not lived up to expectations. I did purchase a Jim Parker rc raw off ebay for about $20. Looked as good as the 8's that were showing up and selling for $90-100. Sent it in and it came back an 8. Left the seller glowing feedback and even sent him an email after I got it back, thanking him for a great card. Wish I could remember the sellers name now.
-Josh
My eBay Store
BigCrumbs! I made over $250 last year!
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
I have not sold any raw cards on ebay for years due to the perception all non graded cards are over graded and therefore underbid. To me it is kind of a shame that the baseall card market has gone the way of coins and people that have been dealing in these items for years are suddenly seemed not credible because the item doesnt have a slab saying what a 3rd party interprets the grade to be.
Bottom line, be a smart buyer. Look at the scans ask questions etc.
do you honestly think anyone who is selling cards who has not heard of PSA should be grading their raw cards?? Gimme a break. No argument that buyers should ask for scans but scans many times don't tell the whole story.
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
Seeking primarily PSA graded pre-war "type" cards
My PSA Registry Sets
34 Goudey, 75 Topps Mini, Hall of Fame Complete Set, 1985 Topps Tiffany, Hall of Fame Players Complete Set
I started buying cards around 1974 - 75. I still have the first card I bought-A 1934 Goudey Hank Greenberg.
I was grading my own cards before Joe Orlando even knew what a baseball card was. (And thats not a knock on Joe by
the way, so don't go get all sensitive on me! LOL! Joe's a good guy) So, I do know something about grading. I don't "NEED" as some suspect,
for PSA to "anoint" my cards. I just want the sellers who describe cards on ebay to be somewhat in reality to what they
are supposed to be.....I don't think thats too much to ask. If you put in your description that a card is NM/MT and it's
not, well....thats what I'm talking about!
Another thing is that yes, PSA created a standard, but believe me, the standard has been around a long time, just never
put into place with "OFFICIAL" status until certification came along. I went to shows in the late 70's and early 80's and
made money buying and selling cards and never had a problem with grading stuff. Yes, I made mistakes, but I ate em,
or sold em at a loss, after realizing I missed something. I bought and sold cards strictly between dealers and myself.
I only set up at very few shows, and then only to try and buy stuff early at the dealer set-up times. The price I paid
for the table to get in early was nothing compared to the great fresh cards that it allowed me to buy and actually make
a decent profit at it.
Another is questioning what am I doing on here talking about raw cards...UH....DUH is right ....Thats what
this entire board is about...SPORTSCARDS....raw, slabbed, ugly crooked, it doesn't matter...it is a discussion board. If you
don't want to discuss it, then get off this thread and go to one you do want to discuss!
Actually, I was glad that I started the rant, then I was sorry I opened a can of worms, but, now, I am happy again that
I started it because this is what I (And others I am sure) want to see happen. A discussion
about what the problems are and maybe some solutions. As many have said, there is no real one-way does it all
answer, but, at least it lets us all see what is happening and what we can do to correct or change the situation
for someone that is just coming on board as well as our own particular problems.
Not trying to bore anyone, just presenting some things to think about.
Tony
KalineFan
I disagree, I may agree with 'some' but almost everyone that sells cards or is involved with this hobby knows about PSA.
with that said, many sell raw cards cuz they are just to lazy and cheap to send them in. Others feel that certain cards are not worth grading. It is one thing to do the above and quite another to downright overgrade your cards so as to decieve potential buyers.
Steve