Boxing Talk! State of the Heavyweight Division!

DeutscherGeist · January 25, 2007 12:57AM

I am a casual boxing fan. I do not know enough and have been missing a lot of fights lately.

I remember when Foreman regained the title against Moorer. He won the WBC and IBF belts and then the WBO belt was given to him later. Is this correct. I don't know how he lost those belts though. I missed it.

Evander Holyfield won the title 4 times and now wants it a 5th time. I guess he is still going at age 40+

What happened to Razor Ruddock?

Larry Holmes retired so many times. Is he still boxing? Is he 50+ right now?

Who has the belts now? Who is considered the real CHAMP? Those belts confuse me.

ToppsCo1lector · January 25, 2007 1:23AM

There are 3 main champions right now

Wladimir Klitschko is looked upon as the most "legit" champion, he won the superheavyweight gold in the 1996 Atlanta Olympics. He currently holds the IBF and IBO Heavyweight titles. Nicaluay Valuev holds the WBA title, he's a monstrocity standing in over 7 feet tall and is basically new to the sport. He has yet to fight anyone of true, championship or even contender substance. The last heavyweight is Oleg Maskeav the WBC heavyweight champion. Very heavy handed, he's an older champ(born in 1969) and he has a suspect chin. But he has defeated Hasim Rahman twice.

Out of all, Wladimir is considered the real champ. Having defeated Chris Byrd, Samuel Peter(A rising contender in the division), among others.

Foreman was stripped of his titles for not fighting in mandatory title defenses.

DeutscherGeist · January 25, 2007 5:35PM

Thanks for some of the update.

One can get really lost with all those belts. So, the WBO was not mentioned. I think that was the last of the three that Foreman had. I don't know if it even exists now.

Klitschko is familiar to me. I know the two took the boxing world by storm.

Is there a desire for one fighter to collect all existing belts?

There must be such a thing as the boxing HOF, right?

If so, did Marciano make it in despite a short career and no old man years? How about Holyfield, Holmes and Foreman? They fought and fought well into their old man years and took some losses which they would not have had they just retired on top of their game (heck, Holyfield might not even be done).

fsjeter · January 26, 2007 3:44AM

Deutsch,

The International Boxing Hall of Fame is in Canastota, NY. The link will give you all the current enshrinees. As far as the state of the Heavyweight division, it is in dire straights right now. In addition to those previously mentioned, Shannon Briggs is the current WBO Champion. I believe he was in the recent movie, "The Transporter II". It's gotten to the point that if you are not North of 6'3" and 245 lbs. you really don't stand much of a chance in the division.

Scott

DeutscherGeist · January 27, 2007 1:48PM

I looked at the Boxing Hall of Fame. Thanks to the link!

Max Schmeling is a peculiar character. He was very popular during his boxing era and even boxed after WWII had ended, though he was passed his prime. I think he kept fighting just to make ends meet after the war. He kept a very low profile and kept becoming less visible in public life after retirement from boxing. He eventually got a stake in the German economic miracle in the 1950s. He was in the right place at the right time and began his new life as a businessman/entrepenuer. His wealth skyrocketed.

I never knew what Schmeling did after the war. I knew he was famous during the 20s, 30s and 40s. I did not know when or if he had died during the time I was growing up in the 70s and 80s. Suddenly about 2 years ago, I hear an announcement on the news that Max Schmeling passed away at age 99 or 100. This guy had been alive throughout my life up until that point and I never knew it despite visiting and living in Germany numerous times. Talk about retreating from public life. Had I known he was alive, I might have tried meeting him or something.

I thought it was a class act that he paid for Joe Louis to have a dignified funeral. Louis did not die rich and he was rivals with Schmeling.

Schmeling was regarded as a class act when his life is taken is taken as a whole. His name is somewhat tainted because of his association with Nazi Germany, but that was only because he was a great fighter who happened to live in that era of history.

DirtyHarry · January 28, 2007 9:23AM

I am an avid boxing fan, and the history of great heavyweight boxers is a lenghty topic for another discussion. Ali, Marciano, Frazier, Louis, Dempsey, Johnson, Tunney, Schmeling and even Holmes could enter into this discussion. And those are only heavyweights. Boxing is a great game that equalizes size.

The last "great" heavyweight who was universally recognized, regardless of belts, is Lennox Lewis. He is retired. Klitschko is the next closest "universally recognized" champion, and he is ready to come out of "retirement". Valuev (7 foot, 320) is the WBA belt holder, and I would parallel his skills with Wilt Chamberlain when he thought he was a boxer. Maskaev has great skills, has knocked Rachman into submission twice, but is a headcase. Shannon Briggs beat Foreman in 1997 (TKO, end of Foreman's career), lost to Lewis, but beat Rahman and Klitschko. Michael Grant was an up and comer, but got his head handed to him. John Ruiz, Chris Byrd and David Tua are still in the arena, but unless they can beat any of these guys, they are also- rans.

Don King still is the master promoter of the boxing world. He will find a way to bring together Klitschko, Valuev, Rahman, Maskaev, Briggs and maybe Ruiz and Tua. Unless Lennox Lewis comes out of retirement, that is the HW boxing world as we live in right now.

R

MPeter · January 28, 2007 12:10PM

Here's the state of the Heavyweight Division.............

Joe Mesi is training for his fifth fight (Feb 22, undercard of Rahman) since suffering a brain injury, Evander Holyfield is still fighting and Tommy Morrison.........yes, that same Tommy Morrison is battling to get his boxing license back so he can get back into the ring. He says the HIV test was a false positive from all the steriods he took and that he's been tested several times over the last ten years and all the tests came back negative. He still wants to fight Tyson.

Now tell me honestly, what do you think would spark more attention.......a fight between Vladimir Klitschko and Hasim Rahman or a fight between Tommy Morrison and Mike Tyson??? I'm almost embarrassed to say that I would pay for the Morrison vs Tyson fight.

gregmo32 · January 29, 2007 1:04AM

I read an article about Schmelling once where he was quoted as saying something like this...
"I was never a Nazi, nor a Nazi sympathiser. I was invited to lunch and meet the 'president' and did so because he was the "president". Just because you meet someone does not make you a member of his party." (paraphrased, of course)

And I think when he died a few years back, he was very very wealthy. I think he got in on the ground floor of Coca Cola in Germany and Europe...

DirtyHarry · January 29, 2007 8:22AM

Cripes, MPeter - what are you talking about?? Morrison, Holyfield and Tyson are all by gones and only money card jokes. You should fight them. I would watch that. Let me be your agent. I'd like to put you all in the ring together with baseball bats in a death cage match. C'mon.

GregMo - Max Schmelling was a sincere individual who did not take kindly to Hitler and his Nazi representation. He did not want this affiliation. That's why he is admired, beyond his boxing proficiency.

I thought this was a sincere thread about boxing history, not some kind of dumbass thread.

R...

fsjeter · January 29, 2007 8:41AM

<< I thought this was a sincere thread about boxing history, not some kind of dumbass thread.

R... >>

I may be wrong but just because those people you referenced made posts you didn't care for doesn't mean deutsch, who started the thread, wasn't sincere. I, for one, believe he was. Don't you think that comment was just a little harsh?

Scott

DirtyHarry · January 29, 2007 8:45AM

FSJeter - appreciate that and the intent of the original poster. Subsequent posts are not relevant. Thought that was obvious, but I guess not.

gregmo32 · January 29, 2007 8:48AM

Not sure what you are upset about. And it seems like we are in agreement about Max...

DirtyHarry · January 29, 2007 8:54AM

GregMo - I'm not "upset", other than with innacurate comments by MPeter. If you guys want to talk boxing, I enjoy it and am here to join the discussion. It is a passion of mine.

R-

fsjeter · January 29, 2007 9:01AM

<< GregMo - I'm not "upset", other than with innacurate comments by MPeter. If you guys want to talk boxing, I enjoy it and am here to join the discussion. It is a passion of mine.

R- >>

Alright, who do you like in the upcoming Mayweather v. De La Hoya fight? Personally, I like Mayweather. Technically speaking, I think he is just too strong for De La Hoya. I don't see a KO from either side, just a 12 round decision in favor of Floyd. Unless, of course, Floyd's father decides to go ahead and train De La Hoya as he may know something we don't.

Scott

DirtyHarry · January 29, 2007 9:37AM

FSJMeister - I assume you know that Floyd's "estranged dad" is training Oscar. And we know, Floyd is moving up in weight to take on Oscar. So, that behind us, this is IMO the best and most important "Non-Heavyweight" fight for anyone who knows anything about boxing. I suspect you know the same.

Bottom line, I love both fighters and will hate to see one of them lose. I think they are both Champions, especially in the "pound for pound class". I think Mayweather will win on a decision or TKO, as he is younger, can be more active on punch counts, and has equal or greater than KO power to Oscar. Yet, I will root for both fighters, as they are both in the top of all time boxing combatants.

MPeter · January 29, 2007 1:11PM

DirtyHarry, you should be upset with yourself and not anyone else. None of the comments I made are inaccurate. Do a little checking and you'll see that I'm 100% correct!

Everyone knows the obvious group at the top of heavyweight boxing right now, I'm just adding to the subject. I didn't make anything up, it's all accurate.

Holyfield is still training and thinks he can become champion again.

Baby Joe Mesi is fighting February 22nd

Tommy Morrison has tested negative on several HIV tests in front of the boxing commission and they scheduled him to fight on January 16th of this year to see what kind of physical shape he was in, before giving him a license. He injured his hand in training and the fight was postponed. There is nothing made up about that.

One more too......Ray Mercer is still training to fight. Rahman backed out of a February fight with him.

You may not like hearing about old timers, but with the way the heavyweight division is and the whole of boxing, anything is possible.

fsjeter · January 29, 2007 11:11PM

<< and has equal or greater than KO power to Oscar. >>

That may be the only place we differ. I believe Mayweather had great KO power in the lower weights but it hasn't been there with the Welterweights. He wasn't able to knockout Judah or Baldomir. Other than that, I concur!

<< Ray Mercer is still training to fight. >>

I wouldn't worry about him too much. In his last two big fights, he was knocked out in both of them. He was ko'd in the 7th round against Shannon Briggs (8/26/2005) and ko'd in the 6th round against Wladimir Klitschko (6/29/2002). The Briggs fight was his last fight so he's been inactive for a year and a half. Here is a list of the top 25 Heavyweights in the world according to BoxRec.com. It doesn't look promising. The future of boxing for now is in the lighter divisions with guys like Floyd Mayweather, Miguel Cotto, Kermit Cintron, Manny Pacquiao, Jermain Taylor, Ronald "Winky" Wright, Ricky Hatton, Joe Calzaghe, and "Sugar" Shane Mosley.

Scott

fsjeter · January 30, 2007 6:07AM

<< FSJMeister - I assume you know that Floyd's "estranged dad" is training Oscar. >>

Looks like Freddie Roach will be training Oscar for this one. I guess Oscar didn't want to ponie up the $2 Mil.

Scott

DirtyHarry · January 30, 2007 10:53AM

MPeter - I am sorry if I attacked your opinion. Everyone is entitled to same. I should have been a bit softer. So, let's put it this way --- if Joe Mesi, Evander Holyfield, Tommy Morrison, Mike Tyson or Ray Mercer EVER win a recognized HW Boxing Belt, I will gladly isue you a public apology. I will also buy you dinner if you ever venture out to the Maryland area.

Jeter - we appear to concur. All said and done, Ocsar is past his prime and should stick to promoting fights.

R

MPeter · January 30, 2007 12:07PM

No problem! Just remember, this is heavyweight boxing we're talking about........anything is possible.

If you can have one champ bite the ear off another champ during a fight, anything is possible. If you can have two brothers with PhD's as champions, anything is possible. If you can have a 7 foot tall Neaderthal creature from the past come back and become champion, anything is possible. If you can have a former champ with five sons all named the same and have a grill named after him, anything is possible. If you can have a former champ blow over $300 million in career earnings, tattoo his face and talk about eating little kids....anything is possible.

The only thing predictable and constant in heavyweight boxing is disorganization, corruption and Don King's hair!

ToppsCo1lector · January 30, 2007 12:32PM

<< MPeter - I am sorry if I attacked your opinion. Everyone is entitled to same. I should have been a bit softer. So, let's put it this way --- if Joe Mesi, Evander Holyfield, Tommy Morrison, Mike Tyson or Ray Mercer EVER win a recognized HW Boxing Belt, I will gladly isue you a public apology. I will also buy you dinner if you ever venture out to the Maryland area.

Jeter - we appear to concur. All said and done, Ocsar is past his prime and should stick to promoting fights.

R >>

Your in the MD area? I was born and raised. I'm a fan of Joe Mesi, and I think he has a very legit shot(Hopefully he'll be blessed with health) at capturing a heavyweight belt. Mesi and Rahman will be featured on the Versus network on/around the 22nd of Feb. 2007.

DeutscherGeist · January 30, 2007 2:28PM

"No problem! Just remember, this is heavyweight boxing we're talking about........anything is possible.

If you can have one champ bite the ear off another champ during a fight, anything is possible. If you can have two brothers with PhD's as champions, anything is possible. If you can have a 7 foot tall Neaderthal creature from the past come back and become champion, anything is possible. If you can have a former champ with five sons all named the same and have a grill named after him, anything is possible. If you can have a former champ blow over $300 million in career earnings, tattoo his face and talk about eating little kids....anything is possible.

The only thing predictable and constant in heavyweight boxing is disorganization, corruption and Don King's hair!"

MPeter,

This was the quote of the month! Hilarious!

Very well executed!!

ndleo · January 30, 2007 2:34PM

<< 

<< and has equal or greater than KO power to Oscar.

That may be the only place we differ. I believe Mayweather had great KO power in the lower weights but it hasn't been there with the Welterweights. He wasn't able to knockout Judah or Baldomir. Other than that, I concur! >>

In Floyd's defense, Baldomir has a rock solid chin. I remember the beating he put on Gatti. I don't care for Mayweather's safe style, this fight could be a let down if Oscar doesn't make Floyd stand in and swing.

alpemomo · January 30, 2007 6:35PM

This just might be the year that boxing makes it come back ....

according to undisclosed sources.. The original Judas Priest members have reunited and touring, David Lee Roth has re-joined Van Halen and Sting and the Police will reunite for the 30th year anniv of "Roxanne" at the 2007 Grammys.

The last year all three of these played together and toured was 1982 - 1987 ... Bpxing was pretty exciting then with a young kid named Mike Tyson who was knocking people out in the first round >

DirtyHarry · January 31, 2007 9:42AM

Alpemomo - thanks for that. I don't know what the heck I may have been thinking.

halosfan · January 31, 2007 11:07AM

For me ( most of the time anyway) Boxing is at it's best from Middleweight down. That is where most of the exciting and action packed fights have been for the past several decades.

cjb1977 · February 1, 2007 5:12AM

I wouldn't worry about him too much. In his last two big fights, he was knocked out in both of them. He was ko'd in the 7th round against Shannon Briggs (8/26/2005) and ko'd in the 6th round against Wladimir Klitschko (6/29/2002). The Briggs fight was his last fight so he's been inactive for a year and a half. Here is a list of the top 25 Heavyweights in the world according to BoxRec.com. It doesn't look promising. The future of boxing for now is in the lighter divisions with guys like Floyd Mayweather, Miguel Cotto, Kermit Cintron, Manny Pacquiao, Jermain Taylor, Ronald "Winky" Wright, Ricky Hatton, Joe Calzaghe, and "Sugar" Shane Mosley.

Scott >>

I just did a cursory inspection of that list, it looks like 8 of the top 25 guys including Toney( I know I know) have had a claim as World Champ in the last few years. None of them are recognizable to to the average person. Probably less than half are even recognizable to casual fans.

MPeter · February 21, 2007 1:44PM

Yep, The Duke is fighing once again. If anything, it will bring some media attention to boxing. All this UFC stuff is getting old already. I don't think it will exist ten years from now, but boxing will still be around.

jlbsquared · February 22, 2007 2:33AM

I'm a big Baby Joe fan and hope his comeback works out, but have to admit I'll be watching tonight with baited breath. If the Jirov fight had gone another round, he really might have been killed - he was taking some huuuuge shots. By most accounts Linberger shouldn't be too much of a challenge (though he did beat Butterbean in his last fight, 16 months ago), so I'm sure Mesi will win tonight and be further encouraged in his comeback - I just hope he doesn't go too fast.

Boxing Talk! State of the Heavyweight Division!

Comments