Is this a soft price for a PCGS 1974-P MS66 Ike?

CoinHusker · January 24, 2007 11:12PM

I posted this on the coin forum but thought I'd drop my line in the water over here too.

Ike auction

I thought they trended in the $900 - $1000 range? Or has the market on top pop Ike's softened that much recently?

pragmaticgoat · January 24, 2007 11:56PM

That particular coin is a very poor example and should be in a 65 holder

Parkekal · January 25, 2007 12:20AM

to finish your quote....

"Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice. It is anot a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved."

Good luck on the Ike.... Not my area of great knowledge.

CoinHusker · January 25, 2007 2:25AM

<< to finish your quote....

"Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice. It is anot a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved." >>

Thanks for finishing that. All I've ever seen is what I have in my sig line. (It's out in front of Memorial Stadium in Lincoln)

LincolnsRule · January 25, 2007 2:58AM

Yes, it's a very poor price. It could possibly be an overgraded or low end coin, but you can't tell from the picture, and aw coins are usually high end, so it could be that. If I thought it was going to go that cheap, I would have asked aw about it and bought it! I once bought one for $950 which I thought was a good price, but didn't like it that much and traded it. It's still the only ms66 P Ike I need.

Dennisl · January 25, 2007 9:55PM

I think the Ike market is a lot weaker with less Ike collectors chasing the high end top pop coins. If you are selling a top pop Ike expecting to get PCGS Price Guide prices I think you will be sadly disappointed. Recently it has been relatively easy to buy and sell top pop Ikes for well under PCGS Price Guide and these are not low end for the grade coins. If you look at the Ike registry today there are not that many sets with an average of MS66 or higher, yet in the past there were 15 sets that averaged MS66 or better. Also, while the number of Ike registry sets has increased over the last couple of years you have to consider that now several collectors have multiple sets in the registry. One collector alone has 5 different Ike sets in the Registry, while several collectors have 2-3 sets. Here are more examples of market weakness for Ikes: Two years ago it would be difficult to buy a top pop Ike with a pop of 8 yet I was able to buy 3 1976-P Type 2 MS67 Ikes (pop 8) in one month and sold two of them for less than PCGS Price Guide. For over a month there was a 1971-P MS66 listed on eBay for under PCGS Price Guide and it did not sell. Larry Shapiro had 3 low pop Ikes up for sell on the boards: Pop 10 1972-S MS69, Pop 14 1971-D MS67, Pop 14 1974-D MS67 and the coins did not sell even though they were listed at less than PCGS Price Guide. Several Ike collectors I have spoken with think that Ike Dollars have priced themselves out of the market and that the market is controlled by a few people. There are 23 Ike Dollars, if you include the varieties and over half of them are greater than $5,000 in top pop according to the PCGS Price Guide:
2 Ikes > $15,000
5 Ikes > $10,000
12 Ikes > $5,000

These are just my thoughts based on my observations and active participation in the Ike Market.

Dennis

slugfootball · January 26, 2007 8:09AM

Dennis,

Well said!!

I would also like to see all the "Top Pop" coins be fairly regraded.
I would suspect that less than 25% would make the grade today.
Are some of the Ike collectors unwilling to pay those big prices for coins that
might not be as nice as the ones held in their collections with a lower grade?

pragmaticgoat · January 26, 2007 11:41PM

Dennis and Mike both make very good points, thanks guys for your opinions and insight.

cupronik · January 27, 2007 5:01AM

I think 1974-P PCGS MS-66 Ikes used to bring $1300-1500. earlier on.

Dennisl · January 27, 2007 6:19AM

Another reason for the price drop in Ikes in the huge increase in top pop coins since early 2003. The 1974 P in MS66 has gone from 54 coins in 2003 to 78 coins in 2007, a 44% increase. The 1974 P in MS66 was selling for $1400 not to long ago. Now reduce that $1400 price by 44%, the same amount of the increase in the POP and you get $784. In the auction you were referring to, the coin sold for $760 which is right at what the calculated price came to, $784 versus $760. There are a few people still trying to say that Ikes are worth the PCGS Price Guide prices but then again some of those same people are dealers that sell Ikes.

Year Grade Pop 2003 Pop 2007 # Increase % Increase
1971 66 19 34 15 79%
1971 D 67 10 14 4 40%
1971 S 67 107 211 104 97%
1972 II 66 9 14 5 56%
1972 D 67 2 4 2 100%
1972 S 69 3 10 7 233%
1973 66 52 69 17 33%
1973 D 67 8 10 2 25%
1973 S 68 213 709 496 233%
1974 66 54 78 24 44%
1974 D 67 7 14 7 100%
1974 S 68 190 798 608 320%
1976 I 66 16 22 6 38%
1976 II 67 4 8 4 100%
1976 D I 66 121 189 68 56%
1976 D II 67 19 22 3 16%
1976 S 68 51 316 265 520%
1977 67 3 4 1 33%
1977 D 67 3 5 2 67%
1978 67 5 5 0 0%
1978 D 67 1 1 0 0%
TOTALS 776 2537 1640 211%

Again these statements are only my opinion based on the above facts.

segoja · January 27, 2007 7:29AM

Mike and Dennis make great points, however, a closer analysis is needed.

I think the key is to buy the coin, not the holder. The lower prices realized are for poor quaility or overgraded coins. This has been the case for years with PCGS Ikes. I know, as I've been getting them slabbed (and buying and selling them) since the days of the old rattlers (And I don't think many or any forum members can say that about Ikes)

The reality is that nice accurately graded Ikes in the top grades ARE selling AT PRICES GREATER than the PCGS price guide. I have at least 20+ sales in the last 12 months of high end coins at or over the PCGS price guide prices.

I will also BUY at levels near the PCGS price guide for properly graded low pop Ikes. Try me.

Talk to Larry, I bought one of the Ikes directly from him, and will be buying the other two after the B & M sale (assuming they don't sell) at his numbers. I just didn't see them listed on this forum or I would have bought them outright.

I have said for years that I will support this market, and my money is right were my mouth is. There are plenty of board members who have bought and sold high end Ikes with me.

Anyone who thinks the Ike market is dead, just line up and sell me your high end accurately graded coins.

Dennisl · January 27, 2007 8:20AM

To borrow a phrase from P.T. Barnum " There is a sucker born every minute"

Just because someone pays PCGS Price Guide for an Ike doesn't mean that it is truly worth that much in the open market or that they will be able to sell that Ike at anywhere near the price they paid for it. Larry Shapiro had his 2 MS67 Ikes posted on the PCGS Registry Forum and Buy Sell Trade, below PCGS Price Guide and had no takers. I sold 2 properly grade 1976 - P Type II Ikes in MS67 below PCGS Price Guide because no one would pay Price Guide prices for them; that includes dealers and collectors. That is 25% of that coin's LOW pop of 8. That is a tough coin to find . Will any dealer pay PCGS Price Guide for a properly graded MS66 1973-P, MS66 1974-P, 1976- D Type II Ike in MS67? I could not find anyone to pay near Price Guide for a MS67 1974-D. Larry Shapiro couldn't sell his MS67 1971-D pop 14 or MS67 1974-D Pop 14 The Ike pops have risen a lot over the last couple of years and I think they will continue to rise, maybe not as fast as they have recently, but they will rise. I think "economics" has hit the Ike series, the old Supply and Demand.

segoja · January 27, 2007 9:30AM

Please read:

<< Talk to Larry, I bought one of the Ikes directly from him, and will be buying the other two after the B & M sale (assuming they don't sell) at his numbers. I just didn't see them listed on this forum or I would have bought them outright. >>

These three Ikes will be mine, unless they sell.

Please read my published buy prices that I posted multiple times over several months. I had NO hits on these. I'm trying to support the market

1972-P Type I MS66 $12,750 PCGS Price Guide $10,500
1972-P Type III MS66 $7,000 PCGS Price Guide $6500
1976-P Type I MS66 $3950 PCGS Price Guide $3850
1976-D Type I MS67 $16,500 PCGS Price Guide $11,500
1976-D Type II MS67 $2,550 PCGS Price Guide $3350 ..yes that's too high
1977-P MS67 $10,250 PCGS Price Guide $6,000
1978-D MS67 $14,500 PCGS Price Guide $15,500

Need a few NGC high grade coins as well. No where near the PCGS prices, but needed none the less.
73-P 66, 76-P Type I 66, 71-D 67 76-D Type I 67

All Sight Seen

Please offer.

Show me ONE other series that has a dealer willing to pay over the PCGS Price Guide price with PUBLISHED buys.

wondercoin · January 27, 2007 11:04AM

"All Sight Seen"

These (3) words sum up the confusion surrounding whether the Ikes are selling "soft" or strong. I do not believe the PCGS Price Guide is intended to quote "premium quality" coins for the grade. And, the pops are so small on the coins to begin with that it is unlikely many coins will surface regardless of whether above Price Guide levels are quoted for coins when, as a condition purchases are based upon "sight-seen".

This is not to minimize Segoja's posted levels for nice coins - the problem is the requirement of "sight-seen" is required due to the reality that a significant number of the coins left on the market are below average specimens to begin with, in part the culprit of "gradeflation" and years of "upgrading" within the same grade level.

And, so when the "typical" specimen comes up for sale (like the 1974(p) here), the $1,350 Price Guide level, if anything, appears overstated. And, of course, this same coin in PCGS-MS67 (one single point up) might command $15,000 - $20,000 easy, so offering even $2,000 for a premium quality MS66 specimen would not be surprising - but, again, the problem is the Price Guide (I believe) is intended to show a price for the typical coin.

Wondercoin

segoja · January 27, 2007 11:30AM

Mitch you may be right on the intent for the price guide.

As with any series, its only a guide!

GRANDAM · January 27, 2007 1:47PM

GrandAm

Gandyjai · January 27, 2007 5:36PM

Hi,

My name is Brian and I am an Ike addict!! (about 8 years now!)

It all started with one little blue book by Wexler, Crawford and Flynn and a 'scope that I bought at FUN.

I spent the first three years squinting into a scope trying to figure out which DDO, DDR, TDO, TDR Silver Proof I had....(or even a "newly discovered" one).
At around $5 a pop ($15 for the 73-S)...Silver Proofs were a great way to get into Ikeland on my budget.

After becoming seriously frustrated with
trying to figure out which one was which....I decided to try out Clad Ikes. I had saved some '73 Mint Sets from High School days and decided to go
through them on a rainy day and submit some to PCGS. I made (2) MS66 73-P Ikes on my first submission!

I have YET to make another!

But, I was hooked on Clad Ikes from that day on!

I have searched THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of raw Ikes and have only found ONE on Sego's want list....a very nice 72-P Type 3 in PCGS 66.
I have YET to make a PCGS 67!!

Fact is, these Ikes are VERY, VERY hard to find and "make the cut" at PCGS, due to the nature of the
coin, the handling, and the minting process. Top-Pop Ikes are rare!!

The Clad Ike is a coin that does not need to be put under a 'scope or loop to see what variety it is, or whether or not it is nice enough to be submitted.
It was the USA's last BIG Dollar coin. They are a "naked-eye" coin! These are main reasons that Ikes have quite a few followers, collectors and addicts.

Supply and demand......basic economics 101......I just don't think there are going to be enough of these Top-Pop Clad Ikes to go around in the near
future (or even now for that matter, or James wouldn't be begging for these coins and offering BIG $$$ for them!)
Not IF, but WHEN there is an influx of new Ike collectors,.....High-end and rare varieties of Ikes will be a poster child for basic economics 101!

I am hopelessly addicted to trying to find and make Top-Pops, Talon-Head clashed dies, Peg-Legs, Type 2's, and any other variety of Ike I can come
up with.......there is no cure for me!......I'm totally immersed in Ikeland......and I LOVE IT!!!

Brian

I LOVE

TALON HEAD, PEG-LEG & ERROR IKES!

cladking · January 28, 2007 12:18AM

For some reason most people seem oblivious to the fact that these are often
very scarce or rare coins. Those who haven't looked for the coins will speak of
the mountains of raw coins that have yet to be searched but we know that there
were never any mountains and the hills have even eroded away. Most of the mint
sets no longer even exist much less remain as a significant source for the highest
grade coins. Those which do survive tend to frequently have been checked. There
were rolls set aside but how many rolls are you aware of that are original?

I sought gem quarters all through the '70's and would often set aside dimes and
halfs that were gemmy but I'd never see a gem Ike. It was 1978 before I saw my
first gem Ike; a '77 in a mint set.

Before this there seemed little reason to even search for the coins but once you
know they actually exist then it's hard not to.

The '74 Ike comes just awful in the set. The big problem is rough unattractive
surfaces. This coin is very attractive though many collectors hate scratches and
the one in front of Ike's head may be stopping some from bidding. It looks like
a mint set coin. The reason that even the regular price is so low is, as Ganyjai
suggests, that demand for these is very very light. A morgan this scarce and e-
qually scarce in MS-65 AND MS-64 would probably sell for thousands and thousands
of dollars.

bushmaster8 · January 28, 2007 11:25PM

<< That particular coin is a very poor example and should be in a 65 holder >>

I sure wish I could grade a coin from a lousy pic like you can!!

pragmaticgoat · January 29, 2007 12:38AM

<< 

<< That particular coin is a very poor example and should be in a 65 holder >>

I sure wish I could grade a coin from a lousy pic like you can!! >>

I've seen the coin in person

slugfootball · January 29, 2007 10:31AM

I think Wondercoin hit the nail on the head

"All Sight Seen"

I will start a new thread as to not ruin Coinhuskers post

segoja · January 29, 2007 10:37PM

Show me one series that ANY dealer is willing to pay over PCGS price guide sight unseen????...or for that matter even close (and I mean within 25% of the price guide)

Then show me one series ANY dealer is willing to pay OVER PCGS price guide sight seen???

These would be published buys of course.

I challenge you!

If you guys don't think I support this series, then just sell me some coins. I think my buys were very very strong. Some of the orders have been filled, but most not.

Dennisl · February 10, 2007 3:58PM

I still think that the Ike market is weak and the PCGS Price Guide is off except for very high end PQ coins that might upgrade. Looking at recent events that continue to reinforce my beliefs, Larry Shapiro's MS67 1971-D Pop 14 and MS67 1974-D Pop 14 did not sell in the Bowers & Merena Auction. Last bids I saw were no where near PCGS Price Guide pricing but I did not watch the very end of the auction. Larry's MS69 1972-S Pop 10 only sold for $3,278 (a PQ coin) and the PCGS Price Guide lists this coin as $4,000. James Sego just had two high end Ikes on eBay. A MS67 1974-D that ended today. The coin was priced just above PCGS Price Guide and did not receive a bid and yes it was a PQ high end coin. Here is the description of the coin.

<< This coin is fully struck with incredibly smooth surfaces. The coin could have graded higher save for a minor mark in the obverse field. A superb Gem 1974-D. I sold this coin about 2 years ago, and was very happy to get it back. >>

The other coin was a high end MS65 1972-P Type II that was described as:

<< Here it is, the King of the Ikes. A super high grade 1972-P Type II Ike. This coin is well struck and has very nice luster. >>

This coin sold for $3,199 while the PCGS Price Guide lists the coin for $3,800. I am only using these as examples to illustrate where I think the market is in reference to the Price Guide. In no manner am I trying to offend or malign the owners of these coins. In my opinion, the coins were just as described, very PQ, and consequently they should have commanded the highest prices. The market establishes the price and the price guide should reflect the market.

Dennis

CoinHusker · February 10, 2007 9:55PM

Thanks for the interesting and informative replies guys. It's amazing what an education one can get just by posting a simple question.

So, how IS the best way to get a grasp on accurate prices for Ikes? (top pops in particular and the series in general)

Is this a soft price for a PCGS 1974-P MS66 Ike?

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