New guy just wondering....PSA vs BGS

RoarIn84

Kinda new here and thinking of getting some stuff graded. Been lurking this board for weeks now and everyone rattles on about PSA PSA PSA... but i never hear anyone speak of BGS. I'm new so I can't be biased and have no personal experience. Based on everyone here being dedicated, knowledgeable collectors swearing by PSA, I'd probably go thru them too. I was just wondering what PSA has over BGS. It seems that BGS is not only tougher, but it has that outside chance of scoring a Pristine 10, which is supposedly better than a PSA 10. Plus it is divided into categories (surface, edges, corners, centering) so you can see the basis of their grade. Also, the midgrades (7.5, 8.5, etc) seem nice when your card was 'not quite an 8, but better than a 7'.....Just kinda fishing for input/opinions. Thanks!

Southerncards

neither, haha


SGC rocks!

mosaic

I'm sure the day crew will chime in with their thoughts and experiences....

For my two cents, my personal experience is that PSA has been more consistent over the years. Yes, they sometimes make mistakes, and yes, you can resubmit 8's and 9's until you get a few more 9's and 10's... but, overall, they're pretty fair and consistent.

BGS used to be VERY tough and very consistent. A few years ago though, their standards slipped, and they started giving out a lot more 9.5's and 10's. It's still difficult to get a BGS 10, but a 9.5 isn't the rarity it once was. Used to be a BGS 9.5 was a BGS 10. Now, a BGS 9.5 has an equal shot at a PSA 9 as it does a PSA 10 when crossed over. I submitted a few cards to BGS recently that came back 9.5's. I was happy, but I really feel a couple were 9's at best, based on their so-called "strict" standards.

BGS's standards favor modern cards produced after the Upper Deck revolution (1989 onward). They have a reputation for being harsh on cards produced on normal card stock, such as those made by Topps, Fleer, and Donruss before 1989. Of course, with the way modern cards are produced, it's much easier to get a PSA 10 with them. As such, things have shaken out such that vintage cards are deemed more valuable in PSA holders, while modern cards are deemed more valuable in BGS holders. You only have to surf eBay to see that.

Now, there are other X-factors I consider...

One of these is turnaround time. PSA kills BGS when it comes to turnaround time. BGS rarely gets an order done early, whereas PSA does all the time. Sure, PSA doesn't turn around every order early, but in my own experience, they've been early more often than BGS (5 for 6 PSA submissions, as opposed to 0 of 4 submissions to BGS). Not a huge sample size, I know.

The other is the protection offered by the holder. Seriously. PSA's holder is great--it doesn't distort the image quality of the card and it's slim, so you can pack a lot of them into a box. BGS's holder, however, is the best in terms of protection. It's twice as thick, totally air-tight, and the card is held in place by a plastic insert that significantly dampens movement and vibration. You need to pop a PSA holder into a commercial paint mixer to damage the card, but, still, the possibility exists. Also, PSA holders are easy to crack open... sometimes you can do it with your bare hands. A BGS holder requires power tools to crack, or a hammer and a lot of strength. PSA holders are fine in most cases, and they're what most of my prized cards are in. Cards I absolutely don't want to ever see damaged one iota, however, I've had slabbed by BGS or BVG (their vintage service).

That's my personal two cents.

thenarcissus01

I agree with mosaic. I am sure if you go over to the beckett boards the majority would swear by bgs. However, I have always been pleased with PSA and have never submitted to BGS. If you want try both and see which you like better. Of course, with PSA you have to have a membership and with BGS you don't. By the way, welcome to the boards!

jradke4

to me I wonder way beckett has so many different grading "companies" BGGS, BGS and BVG while there is just PSA at PSA. Unless you count PSA/DNA but that is for dealing with auto's which I can see would go to different people.

Cubby

What years are the cards you want to submit? A good rule of thumb is
if it's pre war go with SGC, if it's post war (vintage) go with PSA, if it's
anything after 1983, either PSA or BGS. I have submitted to both PSA
and BGS. If you want to go with PSA, they require a membership. No
membership required with BGS. Also, another question: Are you looking
to keep or resale?

cravetopps

follow cubby's advice with the caveat that I would draw the "vintage" line earlier, circa 1920. The old tobacco cards look great in the BGS holders.

basestealer

I go with BGS, for two reasons. First, it's easier for collectors to direct submit (PSA requires or used to require a licensed dealer as a middleman), and second because of the perception that they are "tougher" graders. And since I don't ever grade any cards in my personal collection, I only grade for resale.

All this talk about how BGS is handing out "more 10's" is a little misleading. The truth is, a gem mint grade and a mint grade should not be rarities for rarity sake. Cards should receive an HONEST grade, according to the hobby's established guidelines (ironically, developed by Beckett). Obviously, we know that a higher proportion of vintage cards grade poor than they do grade excellent, and a higher portion grade excellent than they do near mint, and a higher portion grade near mint than they do gem mint. But, this shouldn't necessarily be reflected in the population reports because POOR CONDITION CARDS REALLY HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING GRADED! So people send off their high grade cards to the grading companies, which is why higher grades is over-represented. The population report for any given holder is in no way an example of the overall population of the card in existance.

baseballfanatic

<< <i>I go with BGS, for two reasons. First, it's easier for collectors to direct submit (PSA requires or used to require a licensed dealer as a middleman), and second because of the perception that they are "tougher" graders. And since I don't ever grade any cards in my personal collection, I only grade for resale.

All this talk about how BGS is handing out "more 10's" is a little misleading. The truth is, a gem mint grade and a mint grade should not be rarities for rarity sake. Cards should receive an HONEST grade, according to the hobby's established guidelines (ironically, developed by Beckett). Obviously, we know that a higher proportion of vintage cards grade poor than they do grade excellent, and a higher portion grade excellent than they do near mint, and a higher portion grade near mint than they do gem mint. But, this shouldn't necessarily be reflected in the population reports because POOR CONDITION CARDS REALLY HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING GRADED! So people send off their high grade cards to the grading companies, which is why higher grades is over-represented. The population report for any given holder is in no way an example of the overall population of the card in existance. >>




Say wha?

basestealer

What?

stown

<< <i>POOR CONDITION CARDS REALLY HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING GRADED! >>



Uh, that's your opinion.. One man's junk is another man's treasure.

PS - JUST BECAUSE YOU TYPE IN ALL CAPS, THAT DOESN'T MAKE YOUR OPINION ANY MORE FACTUAL.

basestealer

Of course it's my opinion, and I used caps on a couple of words out of my entire post for emphasis. Sorry that you cannot handle a conversation. I would suggest where to take your hurt, crying, offended self, but I don't want to send you over the edge.

Let me make this clear for you--before you people were born, true hobby enthusiasts rejected the grading companies and we still do. It's a sham. Having said that, I grade cards to dump them off on others--to sell them, as I wouldn't have one in my collection. I use what gets the most money. I grade cards worth grading. Poor condition cards, generally, aren't worth grading. There are exceptions--but people are wasting their money sending $3 cards to PSA and spending $10 to have them graded, and I assume they don't mean to waste their money, which means they must think the card is a high grade example when it isn't. My point is that people who think they have gems when in fact they aren't gems, could save themselves time and money by grading the cards themselves beforehand. It's not hard.

Cubby

"POOR CONDITION CARDS REALLY HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING GRADED!"

I would submit a 51 Mantle in hopes of a "1".

cravetopps

basestealer.....you're making some very broad assumptions. True hobby enthusiasts reject grading companies? True hobby enthusiasts meaning you? Don't put me in that category. I think you're trying to say that slabbing a card doesn't make it more desirable to some enthusiasts. If it's an 8, unslabbed, it's an 8 and even if you're the only person who knows that, then power to you. I understand this point. But, to make a broad assumption that true hobby enthusiasts reject slabbing is a bit extreme, don't you agree? Your other point is worth pondering i.e. there is a lot of grading going on that is not a good investment in time and energy. With modern cards costing $10 to grade now unless you place a bulk order, you are 100% correct. One caveat, however; there are many folks who submit modern cards (and some poor condition, vintage, high pop commons) who may never get a decent ROI, at least in the short term, but just love to see those slabbed 9s and 10s. Nothing wrong with that but certainly not a short term wise investment.

pandrews

<< <i>Let me make this clear for you--before you people were born, true hobby enthusiasts rejected the grading companies and we still do. >>



yeah i think i read something about Jefferson Burdick being pissed off about PSA, SGC and Beckett..

you must be an old fart.

baseballfanatic

<< <i>

<< <i>Let me make this clear for you--before you people were born, true hobby enthusiasts rejected the grading companies and we still do. >>



yeah i think i read something about Jefferson Burdick being pissed off about PSA, SGC and Beckett..

you must be an old fart. >>




I was talking to Jefferson Burdick while he was in line at a show getting some 3.00 cards graded under the Express Service level........

storm888

Among non-collectors and novice collectors, PSA is the most recognized
name in authentication and grading. When we add that demographic
total to the base of experienced collectors who prefer PSA, we see
the largest group of potential buyers of graded cards and memorabilia.

That means that the largest segment of the total market has decided
that PSA is the safe place to play.

Debates over who is "best," are really no longer relevant. For now, the
marketplace has made its decision.

For folks concerned about having to "buy a membership" to submit to
PSA: The PSA membership is one of the few bargains left in the sports
collectibles hobby. Extra submission vouchers, SMR monthly magazine,
POP report and SMR online, and bonus gifts for about $8.00 a month
is as close to FREE as it gets.

storm

basestealer

I wasn't referring to old tobacco cards or the '52s and '53s or Mantle RC's when I said no poor condition card should be graded--I said there are exceptions. I wouldn't grade a card unless I felt it would increase it's value, and with a poor condition card to me it just isn't worth it in any case, even for a Mantle RC. I can sell my raw cards for as much as a slabbed card, based on my reputation and connections with collectors. On ebay that might be a different story. What I am talking about is pop reports for common cards from the 70's and 80's--you see a few PSA 1's and 2's for cards that wouldn't book for more than $4 in gem mint. That baffles my mind. I don't understand who is sending thousands of Wade Boggs rookies to PSA that grade 5's and 6's. Bad eyes? Fantasy land? And the generalization I made which is entirely true is that the better condition the card is in, the more likely it is to be graded--which is why pop reports do not represent the population of cards at large. Not every card is graded, and the worse condition it is in, the less likely it is graded. So if the pop reports suggest that BGS is handing out more 9's than they are 6's, it's because people with 6's aren't getting them graded with the frequency that those with 9's are submitting them. A 9 is still more valuable and scarcer than a 6, even if there are more 9's on the population report. Because most 6's aren't slabbed--they're sitting in a semi-rigid in someone's shoebox.

f2tornado

Collect what you like and grade with who you like. PSA, BGS, and SGC are all reputable grading firms. Some loyal customers will bash the competition but fail to realize competition is good as it tends to help keep the price you pay for the service in line. Since this is PSA board inevitably someone will trash BGS/BVG. Deciding which one to go with for resale gets a little tricky. BGS cards tend to have better resale on the new stuff (1990's to present) while PSA has a much larger fan base fan older cards (pre-1990). The caviat is those BGS sub grades on new cards. A weak 9.5 (meaning a card with a 9 subgrade) can sell for 50% less than a strong 9.5 (a card with all 9.5 subgrades or better). A PSA 10 can get a premium over a weak BGS 9.5 but a strong 9.5 can yield a significant premium over a PSA 10. An example is a 1990 Leaf Frank Thomas rookie I sold with 10/9.5/9.5/9.5 grades which landed $150. The PSA 10 was selling for around $70 at the time. Adding yet another ingedient to the mix is the strong competition on the PSA set registry which can severely inflate the price of low pop high-grade cards from older sets. You may or may not get the monster premium on an older card if it is in a BGS/BVG holder. There just arn't that many sales of BVG cards to gauge the market but the few high-grade examples I've seen received solid bids and I wouldn't be shocked if some vintage rookie graded BVG 9.5 received an astronomical price.

My new junk goes to BGS. I recently started collecting older cards and am torn as to which vendor to use for them. I really like the BVG holders but also like the idea of PSA having a much larger audience for the older cards.

Kurtman9

Don't be crazy like I once was and send vintage cards to BVG. PSA and/or SGC, IMO, is the way to go for vintage. That said, I like BVG's holder the best. I've always heard they're good at modern but I don't have any experience with that.

stown

<< <i>I can sell my raw cards for as much as a slabbed card, based on my reputation and connections with collectors. On ebay that might be a different story. >>



Please tell me your ebay ID.

Thanks.

WinPitcher

Let me make this clear for you--before you people were born, true hobby enthusiasts rejected the grading companies and we still do. It's a sham. Having said that, I grade cards to dump them off on others--to sell them, as I wouldn't have one in my collection. I use what gets the most money.


Hmmmmmmm, lets see, true hobby enthusiast and grades cards to dump off on others for the most money.


It is crystal clear buddy.

Steve

pandrews

<< <i>Let me make this clear for you--before you people were born, true hobby enthusiasts rejected the grading companies and we still do. It's a sham. Having said that, I grade cards to dump them off on others--to sell them, as I wouldn't have one in my collection. I use what gets the most money.


Hmmmmmmm, lets see, true hobby enthusiast and grades cards to dump off on others for the most money.


It is crystal clear buddy.

Steve >>

basestealer

<< <i>

<< <i>I can sell my raw cards for as much as a slabbed card, based on my reputation and connections with collectors. On ebay that might be a different story. >>



Please tell me your ebay ID.

Thanks. >>


My ebay ID is my ID on this forum. Now have fun stalking...

PuertoRicanFogBank

0 items found

basestealer

Perhaps I'm missing something important. Perhaps you'll tell me what that is.

RoarIn84

Thanks everyone for taking the time to reply. It was a big help and pleasure to read all the opinions!

fandango

to answer the original question PSA v. BGS.....not even close.....

this comes from someone with a lot of BGS experience, i have over 200 graded BGS pujols rookies and have been for the last year crossing them to PSA....

the last 2 years, BGS has gone down hill tremendously.....They cater to specific bigtime submitters and put 9.5 on EVERYTHING they submit, trimmed or not.....

BGS has the worst policy in doing SUB BUMPS....although they state they do not accept any disputes on grades, they will routinely bump a 8.5 up to a 9.5 because the Centering grade CHANGED..hoW COULD CENTERING CHANGE FROM 1 DAY TO THE OTHER? ISNT A RULER USED FOR THIS? i know of about 8 ebay sellers who get trimmed cards in BGS slabs all the time, like clockwork....i wont say who these sellers are, but they are not diffcult to figure out and i avoid their auctions like the plague...Interestingly these sellers rarely have PSA cards for sale, all BGS 9.5's.......

Yes, BGS used to be tough at the beginning...but since they were purchased by the media company a few years ago, the technical skill, and integrity of the grading went way down hill...i hvae been trying to get rid of/ cross over BGS for the last few years....

they even let a Pujols Bowman chrome auto get bumped from a 8.5 to a 10 over 5 month period!!! yes a BGS 10!! when they do this to such an important, well known card, who knows what they pull with lesser cards...sad..

I really believe BGS has no knowledge or doesnt care about trimmed cards...its an after thought to them...

Stay away from BGS, far away...the market is catching up to their shenanigans....

the thing that really scares me is to see vintage cards in BVG..OUCH....who would buy them?????

basestealer

I sold this for 4K about 2 years ago. I like BVG, but I have seen weird grades placed on centering--for instance, a dead centered card with visible wear might get a centering grade of 7, while the same dead centered card with no wear will get a centering grade of 9.

ArtRossLives

Let's see, Beckett grades cards and then publishes 'market prices' for their graded cards and oh yes, they sell their graded cards through their web business. No conflict(s) of interests here......where can I go buy some BCCG/BVG/BCS graded cards?

SidePocket

That is a sweet 56 Williams. I'm curious though. I collect a 56T now and then but am always wary of the ones where the name and team "box" in the right hand corner show some some color between the box and the border. Does that affect grading? I don't personally like the looks of it, but it doesn't seem to impact the grade.

Stone193

<< <i>Kinda new here and thinking of getting some stuff graded. Been lurking this board for weeks now and everyone rattles on about PSA PSA PSA... >>


welcome roar

I think that it's only normal to hear more talk about PSA on a PSA Board.

My take is that some stuff - modern mainly - is better suited for Beckett.

I believe the merits of Beckett and their advantages are what their board is for IMO.

And to be truthful, I have never seen hard evidence that any grading company is definitely stricter than others.

mike

Bunker

<< <i>Let me make this clear for you--before you people were born, true hobby enthusiasts rejected the grading companies and we still do >>



I thought you were about 30 years old?

originalisbest

I just have to wonder how many feet basestealer has, to keep putting them in his mouth so.

Stone193

<< <i>Having said that, I grade cards to dump them off on others >>

This just kinda sticks in my side.

mike

basestealer

It does? Too bad. Stop me? You can't. Poor baby. I wonder why others grade cards? You mean people don't grade cards to sell them? Why not do a complete search of my posts and contradict EVERYTHING I say. Don't hold back with just 2 or 3.

stown

<< <i>It does? Too bad. Stop me? You can't. Poor baby. I wonder why others grade cards? You mean people don't grade cards to sell them? Why not do a complete search of my posts and contradict EVERYTHING I say. Don't hold back with just 2 or 3. >>



Just like you warn people of GEM, we warn fellow collectors about Sellers like you. As you stated in another thread, your eBay ID is your alias here.

Hopefully they will speak with their wallets.

Good luck

Stone193

Ladies and Gentlemen

I would like to introduce you to RichG's newest best friend: basestealer!

Stone193

<< <i>It does? Too bad. Stop me? You can't. Poor baby. I wonder why others grade cards? You mean people don't grade cards to sell them? Why not do a complete search of my posts and contradict EVERYTHING I say. Don't hold back with just 2 or 3. >>


basestealer
Was that a response to what I posted?

mike

basestealer

<< <i>

<< <i>It does? Too bad. Stop me? You can't. Poor baby. I wonder why others grade cards? You mean people don't grade cards to sell them? Why not do a complete search of my posts and contradict EVERYTHING I say. Don't hold back with just 2 or 3. >>



Just like you warn people of GEM, we warn fellow collectors about Sellers like you. As you stated in another thread, your eBay ID is your alias here.

Hopefully they will speak with their wallets.

Good luck >>


That doesn't make any sense. EVERY SINGLE GRADED CARD ON EBAY IS POSTED FOR SALE. Hello? Are you on drugs or are you retarded?

basestealer

<< <i>

<< <i>It does? Too bad. Stop me? You can't. Poor baby. I wonder why others grade cards? You mean people don't grade cards to sell them? Why not do a complete search of my posts and contradict EVERYTHING I say. Don't hold back with just 2 or 3. >>


basestealer
Was that a response to what I posted?

mike >>


Of course. You quoted me, didn't you?

pandrews

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>It does? Too bad. Stop me? You can't. Poor baby. I wonder why others grade cards? You mean people don't grade cards to sell them? Why not do a complete search of my posts and contradict EVERYTHING I say. Don't hold back with just 2 or 3. >>


basestealer
Was that a response to what I posted?

mike >>


Of course. You quoted me, didn't you? >>



yes he did, but you did not quote him, therefore leaving open the possibility that you were replying to someone else.. do you lack intelligence?

stown

<< <i>That doesn't make any sense. EVERY SINGLE GRADED CARD ON EBAY IS POSTED FOR SALE. Hello? Are you on drugs or are you retarded? >>



Yes, I am on drugs and no, I am not retarded.

So what's your point?

I can guarantee you that your potential bidding pool shrank the past few days.

I suggest you cut your bait and bail.

Stone193

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>It does? Too bad. Stop me? You can't. Poor baby. I wonder why others grade cards? You mean people don't grade cards to sell them? Why not do a complete search of my posts and contradict EVERYTHING I say. Don't hold back with just 2 or 3. >>


basestealer
Was that a response to what I posted?

mike >>


Of course. You quoted me, didn't you? >>


Hard to say since you made a post with no quoted reference or directly address the person.

mike

pandrews

<< <i>

<< <i>Let me make this clear for you--before you people were born, true hobby enthusiasts rejected the grading companies and we still do >>



I thought you were about 30 years old? >>

pandrews

when is icon upload day?

basestealer

<< <i>

<< <i>That doesn't make any sense. EVERY SINGLE GRADED CARD ON EBAY IS POSTED FOR SALE. Hello? Are you on drugs or are you retarded? >>



Yes, I am on drugs and no, I am not retarded.

So what's your point?

I can guarantee you that your potential bidding pool shrank the past few days.

I suggest you cut your bait and bail. >>


You're a complete jackass. I don't come here to advertise my auctions. My bidding pool means nothing to me--I don't make a dime on my HOBBY. I have nothing to worry about. I have flawless feedback and a flawless history. I couldn't care less if your petty attempts to degrade me have any effect on other's opinions, because you are as worthless as they are. Like I said--I wouldn't have a graded card in my collection, OOOOO the horror. Like I said, I use PSA and BGS to grade cards for resale, OOOOO the horror. That is, when I want to sell something, and if it's worth it.

stown

<< <i>when is icon upload day? >>

stown

<< <i>You're a complete jackass. I don't come here to advertise my auctions. My bidding pool means nothing to me--I don't make a dime on my HOBBY. I have nothing to worry about. I have flawless feedback and a flawless history. I couldn't care less if your petty attempts to degrade me have any effect on other's opinions, because you are as worthless as they are. Like I said--I wouldn't have a graded card in my collection, OOOOO the horror. Like I said, I use PSA and BGS to grade cards for resale, OOOOO the horror. That is, when I want to sell something, and if it's worth it. >>



I've tried to help you and you resort to this.

Mike said it perfectly earlier:



<< <i>Ladies and Gentlemen

I would like to introduce you to RichG's newest best friend: basestealer!

>>

Stone193

basestealer

I think you're way off base here and getting more insulting by the minute.

I'm not trying to stop you from doing anything.

I just find it hard to believe that someone who proclaims to be some kind of "avenger" for the good of the hobby - a purist of sorts - who has atruistic motives would use the term "DUMP" when selling items to the public.

It wreaks of being cynical to the point of being insulting.

I'm always amazed how fast some people attain the status of persona non grata on a board.

And - I figure the response to your original thread - by Boopotts went over your head - but - by virtue of coming on an informed board - stating the obvious - like the sun sets in the west and Gem is bad - isn't gonna draw a big crowd - sorry but we've been there, done that, and got two T-shirts!

mike

stown

<< <i> the sun sets in the west and Gem is bad >>



Well what do you know... Learn something new every day.

Thanks Mike