Just been shafted on ebay

Gazza · January 22, 2007 5:11AM

Just today received a coin purchased on ebay and have been taken from behind royally.

Lovely picture of the coin in the auction and a lump of junk turns up in the jiffy bag. I've emailed the seller and raised a "significantly not as discribed" with paypal. What happens now. ?

SYRACUSIAN · January 22, 2007 5:20AM

You send it back, after you send an angry but polite email first.

ajaan · January 22, 2007 5:22AM

link?

Gazza · January 22, 2007 5:31AM

This is the coin I thought I would receive.Link

and this is about the condition of what I received. Please note the second link is for demostration only and the seller is not in any way involved.

arrived

Hussulo · January 22, 2007 5:35AM

Wow! I think you are right to be angry.

MacCrimmon · January 22, 2007 5:42AM

So, you thought an unc. KN penny was coming your way for one quid?

The listing says it was ended early, so I'm assuming you made an off-eBay "deal". I wonder what the Paypal fine print really says?

SYRACUSIAN · January 22, 2007 5:51AM

4 pounds with shipping, I don't think it's worth the grief, so I retract my previous comment.

Is the coin pictured the one you received or not?

Gazza · January 22, 2007 5:52AM

He pulled the auction too quick to do it by end auction early and sell to highest bidder so a second auction was set up to make sure it went through ebay and paypal.

Gazza · January 22, 2007 5:53AM

<< 4 pounds with shipping, I don't think it's worth the grief, so I retract my previous comment.

Is the coin pictured the one you received or not? >>

The second coin is just an example of what I received

Gazza · January 22, 2007 5:54AM

<< So, you thought an unc. KN penny was coming your way for one quid?

; >>

A lot more than a quid was involved

SYRACUSIAN · January 22, 2007 6:13AM

Agreed, but by returning the coin, you only increase your cost, or the return shipping fees will equal the item value at best.

Even when sellers offer a full refund, they usually substract the shipping fees (from them to you), hence my previous comment. You can always neg him though.

RareBronzeCollector · January 22, 2007 6:32AM

You might have difficulty, isasmuch as there is NO meaningful description in the BIN auction that you paid a substantial amount of money for.....

You MIGHT possibly have SOME recourse with paypal, IF you had some description included in the paypal transaction......

Otherwise, I'm sorry to say, you will probably have lots of grief trying to resolve this issue.....

Gazza · January 22, 2007 6:44AM

<< Agreed, but by returning the coin, you only increase your cost, or the return shipping fees will equal the item value at best.

Even when sellers offer a full refund, they usually substract the shipping fees (from them to you), hence my previous comment. You can always neg him though. >>

The cost of shipping is minuscule compared to the amount paid for the coin

Gazza · January 22, 2007 7:40AM

Just found the original auction where he took the pictures from

Link

coinpictures · January 22, 2007 8:02AM

No offense intended, but you may have screwed yourself on this one. Looking at the actual auction that you won, there is no description, no pictures, no indication whatsoever of what you won. I hope you had clear and specific wording in your PayPal payment, but it doesn't look good for you...

Seeing the 2nd auction set up with no real wording, from a seller with 11 feedback, would have had alarms screaming in my head.

shirohniichan · January 22, 2007 8:06AM

<< Just found the original auction where he took the pictures from

Link >>

Can you get him for stealing someone else's coin photos?

Gazza · January 22, 2007 8:09AM

We were talking to each other via ebay my messages. The reason for the second auction was that he had pulled the first too quick so the second was set up so that I could buy the coin without giving away too much information. I think my best hope is the messages in which one of them I directly asked him to confirm that that the coin I was buying was the one in the photo's to which he reply " yes it is the coin in the pic"

Gazza · January 22, 2007 8:17AM

Now I lodged the complaint with paypal and expected it to appear as a dispuute on ebay also. Are these different so that I should open a dispute directly on ebay aswell?

RareBronzeCollector · January 22, 2007 8:20AM

<< We were talking to each other via ebay my messages. The reason for the second auction was that he had pulled the first too quick so the second was set up so that I could buy the coin without giving away too much information. I think my best hope is the messages in which one of them I directly asked him to confirm that that the coin I was buying was the one in the photo's to which he reply " yes it is the coin in the pic" >>

It might help if you also cross-referenced the initial auction listing with the paypal payment.... At least you show that you were above board with ebay, inasmuch as you weren't trying to beat them on the fees and that you did have a legitimate transaction.... Although I doubt it will help much unless you keep pushing them....

RareBronzeCollector · January 22, 2007 8:21AM

<< Now I lodged the complaint with paypal and expected it to appear as a dispuute on ebay also. Are these different so that I should open a dispute directly on ebay aswell? >>

I would open a dispute everywhere I can... including the local police and the postal authorities...

RareBronzeCollector · January 22, 2007 8:22AM

document and print EVERY communication that you had with the seller to help prove your case.....
as well as all 3 auctions... his original auction,, the BIN, and the one that he stole the images from...
especially if you have to press charges and sure them....

SYRACUSIAN · January 22, 2007 4:36PM

Gazza, I sincerely apologize, I thought that you were the winner of the auction of which you posted the link, not this one.

Now that I see more clearly, I totally agree with RBC,

I would open a dispute everywhere I can... including the local police and the postal authorities...

this is a very serious amount. The fact that you even managed to locate the original auction where he stole the images from should be helpful, but you must act very fast. I'm really sorry for what happened to you, it's one of the reasons why I practically only buy coins from members of this board, or sellers that I know well.

Gazza · January 22, 2007 6:54PM

Thanks S. I'm hoping that using photos from a previous auction put a whole different perspective on the matter. My main worry is how seriously ebay etc take it and don't just brush it under the carpet so to speak.

wybrit · January 22, 2007 9:49PM

I am sorry you were robbed and I hope you can get your payment refunded quickly.

pendragon1998 · January 23, 2007 5:44AM

If you paid with a credit card on PayPal, what does the credit card company have to say about this?

Gazza · January 23, 2007 9:40PM

<< If you paid with a credit card on PayPal, what does the credit card company have to say about this? >>

I am yet to contact them as I was giving ebay/paypal time to do there bit. I suspect that the credit company will only see the transaction with paypal which would be legitimate transaction.
Gary

coinpictures · January 23, 2007 9:44PM

<< 

<< If you paid with a credit card on PayPal, what does the credit card company have to say about this? >>

I am yet to contact them as I was giving ebay/paypal time to do there bit. I suspect that the credit company will only see the transaction with paypal which would be legitimate transaction.
Gary >>

Not true. I've had at least 2 occasions over the last 6 years where I've had to resort to a credit card chargeback against PayPal because PayPal was asleep at the switch and couldn't or wouldn't recover funds for merchandise not received. In both cases the credit card dispute went through successfully.

RareBronzeCollector · January 24, 2007 4:29AM

<< I would open a dispute everywhere I can... including the local police and the postal authorities... >>

EVERYWHERE!!!!! CREDIT CARDS INCLUDED!!!!

Gazza · January 24, 2007 4:59AM

I rang the credit card company, no good. They may have been able to help if i had not received anything, as I had they felt that their chance of recovery from the seller was doubtful.

Just have to wait and see what ebay/paypal come up with. A small claims would maybe possible but I would need to get a full address first. I have his postcode which gets me most of the way there, but I will need a house number.

RareBronzeCollector · January 24, 2007 5:27AM

<< I rang the credit card company, no good. They may have been able to help if i had not received anything, as I had they felt that their chance of recovery from the seller was doubtful.

Just have to wait and see what ebay/paypal come up with. A small claims would maybe possible but I would need to get a full address first. I have his postcode which gets me most of the way there, but I will need a house number. >>

Did they understand that it was a FRAUDULANT TRANSACTION????.... That you DID NOT receive the item for which you had CONTRACTED the purchase?????

Gazza · January 24, 2007 6:18AM

<< 

<< I rang the credit card company, no good. They may have been able to help if i had not received anything, as I had they felt that their chance of recovery from the seller was doubtful.

Just have to wait and see what ebay/paypal come up with. A small claims would maybe possible but I would need to get a full address first. I have his postcode which gets me most of the way there, but I will need a house number. >>

Did they understand that it was a FRAUDULANT TRANSACTION????.... That you DID NOT receive the item for which you had CONTRACTED the purchase????? >>

Yes, the customer service rep ummed and arred then decided that he didn't think they could help.

I've sent the seller a final demand, pay up or pay the consequences. I think I should escalate the claim with paypal very soon. I'm not to certain how this all works. I assume that up to now all that paypal has done passed on my dissatisfaction.

satootoko · January 24, 2007 7:26AM

You haven't done anything to require the credit card company to act until you give them written notice that you dispute the charge. If you do that within the time allowed (which isn't all that long after you get their statement with the charge on it) they don't have the right to ignore your claim. Under federal law they must demand proof from the creditor that you got what you paid for, and reverse the charge if they don't get that proof. In addition, they can't charge interest on the disputed amount until the issue is resolved.

A customer (dis)service rep's opinion based on an oral objection, doesn't mean anything.

airplanenut · January 24, 2007 7:28AM

<< 

<< 

<< I rang the credit card company, no good. They may have been able to help if i had not received anything, as I had they felt that their chance of recovery from the seller was doubtful.

Just have to wait and see what ebay/paypal come up with. A small claims would maybe possible but I would need to get a full address first. I have his postcode which gets me most of the way there, but I will need a house number. >>

Did they understand that it was a FRAUDULANT TRANSACTION????.... That you DID NOT receive the item for which you had CONTRACTED the purchase????? >>

Yes, the customer service rep ummed and arred then decided that he didn't think they could help. >>

Call back or ask for the CSR's boss. They should not be taking this lightly at all.

RareBronzeCollector · January 24, 2007 7:57AM

<< You haven't done anything to require the credit card company to act until you give them written notice that you dispute the charge. If you do that within the time allowed (which isn't all that long after you get their statement with the charge on it) they don't have the right to ignore your claim. Under federal law they must demand proof from the creditor that you got what you paid for, and reverse the charge if they don't get that proof. In addition, they can't charge interest on the disputed amount until the issue is resolved.

A customer (dis)service rep's opinion based on an oral objection, doesn't mean anything. >>

Precisely... File a written protest, listing your grievances (fraud, etc)..... and demand that the charge be reversed..... send it signedfor/certified/return receipt requested, or whatever means ensures that you have a record that the credit card company received your complaint.....

This will ensure that they must formally respond to your complaint..... not just a phantom voice on the telephone.....

Gazza · January 24, 2007 4:00PM

<< You haven't done anything to require the credit card company to act until you give them written notice that you dispute the charge. If you do that within the time allowed (which isn't all that long after you get their statement with the charge on it) they don't have the right to ignore your claim. Under federal law they must demand proof from the creditor that you got what you paid for, and reverse the charge if they don't get that proof. In addition, they can't charge interest on the disputed amount until the issue is resolved.

A customer (dis)service rep's opinion based on an oral objection, doesn't mean anything. >>

Just a reminder, I'm in the UK not the States so different rules may apply here. My paper statement is not due for a couple of weeks yet but I do have internet access to my transactions. I have given the seller 48Hrs to respond, which I expect he won't. I will then push it up a notch with paypal.

Gazza · January 24, 2007 7:23PM

Finally had a response from the seller.

"ebay cant take money out me bank wiv out my say so and im onli 16 so ill get them done for alowing me 2 sign up for ebay because you have 2 b 18"

Where's that dickhead smilie when you need it

RareBronzeCollector · January 24, 2007 7:28PM

<< Finally had a response from the seller.

"ebay cant take money out me bank wiv out my say so and im onli 16 so ill get them done for alowing me 2 sign up for ebay because you have 2 b 18"

Where's that dickhead smilie when you need it >>

In that case, maybe PAYPAL (& Ebay) are at fault... As they allowed a minor to have an account......

As you say, I don't know what the laws are in GB...

SYRACUSIAN · January 25, 2007 1:43AM

<< Finally had a response from the seller.

"ebay cant take money out me bank wiv out my say so and im onli 16 so ill get them done for alowing me 2 sign up for ebay because you have 2 b 18"

Where's that dickhead smilie when you need it >>

The little b@%$#!

You can tell a thing or two from his accent (me bank )

SYRACUSIAN · January 25, 2007 1:54AM

Let alone his spelling.

They should be able to trace this email,I hope that it wasn't sent from an internet cafe.

storm888 · January 25, 2007 3:17PM

In the USA, this would be fairly easy to solve.

PayPal will likely deny the claim.

If credit-card regs are like they are in the USA,
the final result should be satisfactory.

If you have not yet notified EBAY that your have
been defrauded, you should do so immediately.
The seller will be NARUd, and that may help your
PayPal and CC claim.

Terrible tale.

Gazza · January 25, 2007 4:09PM

I thought I had raised a dispute with ebay but nothing apears in my dispute consul. I did receive a stock reply from them. I hope the problem is that you can't lodge a dispute until 10 days after the item closure which is the case at the moment. I have raised a claim with paypal but reading their stock reply I'm only likely to receive $200 lesss $25 max.

CIVITAS · January 26, 2007 1:44AM

Get a written appraisal of the item you received with a photograph of the coin. Then send that in your written notification to the CC company as well as a printed copy of the item that was promised and all other correspondence.

If you paid for a SONY television and received a SORNY television instead, you would have rights as a consumer. You should in this case as well.

coinpictures · January 26, 2007 3:39AM

<< Call back or ask for the CSR's boss. They should not be taking this lightly at all. >>

Agreed on this one. I don't know if credit card companies are completely different in the UK, but this is NOT a decision that a 1st-tier phone CSR is authorized to make.

Every time I have had to call up my credit card company (Chase) to contend an issue with PayPal, the response has been uniformly the same:

1. They tentatively remove the disputed charge from my balance so I am not paying interest on it.

2. They mail me an affadavit form to fill out, sign, and return.

3. Upon receipt of affadavit and confirmation of the details, the charge is gone and PayPal eats it.

Chase takes the stand that they are working for *ME* not an unnamed vendor, which is how I want my credit card company to act. Contrast this with the experience the OP had, whereby the CSR is clearly not acting as an advocate for its customer.

<< I rang the credit card company, no good. They may have been able to help if i had not received anything, >>

This doesn't sound right either. Credit card protection, at least here in the U.S., is not only against nondelivery, but also quality of merchandise. My last PayPal chargeback was due to the seller not delivering all of the merchandise they promised, i.e., I did receive a package but was shorted on quantity. PayPal said "Sorry, not our problem" whereas Chase said "Umm, no, it *is* your problem".

Ricke · January 26, 2007 4:21AM

I would shoot back a response that if he has an ebay account and is not 18, he acted in fraud when he agreed to the terms and conditions.

It's not like Ebay sends out an account rep for everyone that is opening an account for an ID check.

I would be sure to add a comment that you will keep the email correspondence that acknowledges his awareness that he has committed fraud by operating internet activity of which he is so keenly aware of being disqualified to run.

And I would add a smiley face, and give him permission to use it next time he needs one.

I don't know much about law, though - I'm guessing he's just trying to make you give up hope.

Last, I would send his email on to ebay and Paypal, as they should freeze his accounts so this doesn't happen again... without the punk creating another fraud account.

Ricke · January 26, 2007 4:29AM

I just took this from the ebay site:

Terms of use and your privacy - All fields are required
[ ] I agree to the following:
I accept the User Agreement and Privacy Policy.
I may receive communications from eBay and I understand that I can change my notification preferences at any time in My eBay.
I am at least 18 years old.

if he checked that box, he has acted in fraud. Again, I don't know about laws, but I would assume that if he acted in fraud, then all his transactions need to be reversed - which would include your money back, and the return of his POS.

RareBronzeCollector · January 26, 2007 6:03AM

<< I just took this from the ebay site:

Terms of use and your privacy - All fields are required
[ ] I agree to the following:
I accept the User Agreement and Privacy Policy.
I may receive communications from eBay and I understand that I can change my notification preferences at any time in My eBay.
I am at least 18 years old.

if he checked that box, he has acted in fraud. Again, I don't know about laws, but I would assume that if he acted in fraud, then all his transactions need to be reversed - which would include your money back, and the return of his POS. >>

As a minor, I don't know how responsible he can be held, HOWEVER, EBAY and PAYPAL have an obligation and a responsibility and should be held accountable.....

Goober · January 26, 2007 7:33AM

I'm very distrusting of Pay Pal. I used them for quite a few years. One concrete thing I've learned from them....they will protect their bottom line period. If you use their dispute resolution and they know that they won't be able to collect from the seller, they'll find a reason to shaft the buyer whether he's right or not. I think the only way to go is exactly what Coinpics said, using your own credit card company to do the chargeback against Pay Pal. It forces Pay Pal into a corner. That's of course if you have a solid credit card company that will stand behind you as has been mentioned.

Goldeagle1981 · January 29, 2007 4:25AM

The amount involved is so small, it may not worth the troubles. However, if you pay via paypal and if you charge with your credit card. You can simply do two things: (1) File a compaint via Paypal; (2) File a charge back with your credit card company. (but you cannot do both because paypal will not let you). You should get back not only your full purchase amount (in this case, both the purchase price of your coin and shipping charge) you should also request the seller to pay for returning postage. If the dealer treasures his/her reputation, he will accomodate you. I think the dealer should just send you a better coin and call it even because that coin is a very common coin. That is one of the reasons I do not like to buy from oversea dealers. If you purchase from U.S. dealers, you can always file a complaint with FTC, USPS (as mail fraud), etc. Good luck. I returned tons of stuff before. DO NOT tolerate bad items.

Gazza · February 4, 2007 1:06AM

Well, the claim has expired in my favour and paypal have credited me with £105 stating that the balance is owed by the seller who they will try and recover the remained from. I wonder how hard they will try?. I suppose that it will depend on if it's worth the trouble to chase him beings they are only £100 down and it would likely cost them more than that just to put a secretary on it for more than a couple of hours. The seller still hasn't been NRUd yet.

wybrit · February 4, 2007 1:52AM

It's a step in the right direction. Good luck with the remnants.

mrearlygold · February 4, 2007 12:59PM

Just been shafted on ebay

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