I've got a few rants after attending the Tri-Star Show in Houston.........
RonBurgundy
Posts: 5,491 ✭✭✭
Just got back from the Houston Tri Star show. I found a lot of nice stuff (including a raw '60 Mantle I think could 8), but the whole weekend was littered with minor annoyances that are going to set me off on this rant:
1) The idiots at Tri Star do their best to see that people experience hearing loss while at the show. Every 15 minutes, they blare the next autograph guest over the loudspeaker, and I kid you not, it was rock concert loud. You had to nearly yell over the noise, it was that loud. Several dealers complained and it was somewhat better today, but not much. Apparently this has been an issue for years to the point where dealers have even complained to the Tri Star president about it.
2) It annoys the hell out of me when you spend time at a dealer's table, then go to another dealer who says something like, "well, looks like you got plenty of stuff at Joe's table over there." This is especially annoying when you've already passed by the dealer who is saying this. Look dude, if YOU had what I wanted at a better price, I would be at your table spending money. So don't give me crap when I go looking somewhere else. Collectors are not slaves of dealers. Jeesh.
3) Equally annoying is the dealer-submitter who is buddies (or thinks he is buddies) with all the dealers with nice raw stuff. You've seen this guy before. He's a know it all about grading and he bounces from table to table chatting up the raw dealers while looking through their stuff and casting a suspicious eye for anyone around who is looking for high grade raw stuff. Note to these guys: Get a life. If you were a grading genius, you'd be Joe Orlando. That you're walking around a regional show in a Shawn Alexander jersey says you're not.
4) Rumors abound about grading and the industry. I don't want to say anymore than that, but the hobby gossip is always interesting.
Stay classy,
Ron
1) The idiots at Tri Star do their best to see that people experience hearing loss while at the show. Every 15 minutes, they blare the next autograph guest over the loudspeaker, and I kid you not, it was rock concert loud. You had to nearly yell over the noise, it was that loud. Several dealers complained and it was somewhat better today, but not much. Apparently this has been an issue for years to the point where dealers have even complained to the Tri Star president about it.
2) It annoys the hell out of me when you spend time at a dealer's table, then go to another dealer who says something like, "well, looks like you got plenty of stuff at Joe's table over there." This is especially annoying when you've already passed by the dealer who is saying this. Look dude, if YOU had what I wanted at a better price, I would be at your table spending money. So don't give me crap when I go looking somewhere else. Collectors are not slaves of dealers. Jeesh.
3) Equally annoying is the dealer-submitter who is buddies (or thinks he is buddies) with all the dealers with nice raw stuff. You've seen this guy before. He's a know it all about grading and he bounces from table to table chatting up the raw dealers while looking through their stuff and casting a suspicious eye for anyone around who is looking for high grade raw stuff. Note to these guys: Get a life. If you were a grading genius, you'd be Joe Orlando. That you're walking around a regional show in a Shawn Alexander jersey says you're not.
4) Rumors abound about grading and the industry. I don't want to say anymore than that, but the hobby gossip is always interesting.
Stay classy,
Ron
Ron Burgundy
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
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Comments
I went about 2 years ago - funny thing - on Fri - I got there early and there was no one around - so I went near the snack bar and bought a drink and sat down by the window - when they opened - it dawned on me that I was already in!
I thought the show was average - the vendors were very friendly overall - just didn't find anything to get excited about.
The auto lines monopolized the show - most people stood in line - got their autos and left.
All auto material and GU stuff was very, very expensive.
With ebay - I find it increasingly hard to motivate myself to a show.
mike
<< <i>
4) Rumors abound about grading and the industry. I don't want to say anymore than that, but the hobby gossip is always interesting.
>>
Cmon! How about those rumors! If you dont want to give them in public, I would love a PM to hear!
<< <i>Ron
I went about 2 years ago - funny thing - on Fri - I got there early and there was no one around - so I went near the snack bar and bought a drink and sat down by the window - when they opened - it dawned on me that I was already in!
I thought the show was average - the vendors were very friendly overall - just didn't find anything to get excited about.
The auto lines monopolized the show - most people stood in line - got their autos and left.
All auto material and GU stuff was very, very expensive.
With ebay - I find it increasingly hard to motivate myself to a show.
mike >>
I still really enjoy shows. I usually go with the exclusive purpose of finding raw stuff to grade, and I enjoy the challenge of trying to track down stuff that other people in the hobby don't know is worth grading. Like those '74 OPC's I posted a while back. I think I was in to all of those for about $60, and when the dust had settled I made about $900 profit on the sale after they were graded. You can also find some obscure oddball and regional issues that are low (or no) pops, and have a blast selling those on Ebay as well.
If I was just a pure collector then I think I would agree with you. Although even then I think I'd probably pick a couple random sets to do in EX+, and make a point of getting all the cards I needed at shows. I'd probably end up paying about $300 too much, but I'd chalk that up to the entertainment I get from going through binders and stacks of top loaders of someone else's cards. For some reason I just get a kick out of that, and of course there's no way you can do that on Ebay.
The other thing I enjoy about a show is that so long as you bring a ruler, and more or less know what to look for in the way of alterations, you simply will not get ripped off. If the price is too high you pass--- otherwise you know exactly what you're getting. I'm more than happy to pay a premium for cards I want if I can inspect them before I buy, as opposed to getting overgraded lots in the mail and dealing with sociopathic sellers, refunds, etc.
<< <i>
<< <i>
4) Rumors abound about grading and the industry. I don't want to say anymore than that, but the hobby gossip is always interesting.
>>
Cmon! How about those rumors! If you dont want to give them in public, I would love a PM to hear! >>
I don't know which rumors he's specifically referring to, but I'll guess they're variations on the same ones I hear at virtually every show I go to ( dealer so and so is getting tons of trimmed stuff by SGC and PSA, etc.).
I hear ya.
I'm just being lazy. Plus I went by myself - if I went with some friends or meeting up with some - then a show would be more rewarding.
I don't collect much in the way of cards anymore - don't sell on ebay - am a collector only - so my browser can see more in a few seconds than what I can see at a show.
But, based on what you're doing and your pre-show gameplan - it sounds like a winner.
Next time I go to a show - I'm gonna think about what I want to see - so I don't just walk around in a fog so to speak.
Ya did incredible on that 900 buck flip! Congratulations.
I could always use some dough - maybe I shoud start to move in your direction.
mike
<< <i>Boo
I hear ya.
I'm just being lazy. Plus I went by myself - if I went with some friends or meeting up with some - then a show would be more rewarding.
I don't collect much in the way of cards anymore - don't sell on ebay - am a collector only - so my browser can see more in a few seconds than what I can see at a show.
But, based on what you're doing and your pre-show gameplan - it sounds like a winner.
Next time I go to a show - I'm gonna think about what I want to see - so I don't just walk around in a fog so to speak.
Ya did incredible on that 900 buck flip! Congratulations.
I could always use some dough - maybe I shoud start to move in your direction.
mike >>
The main problem I have with most shows/dealers is that they all carry the exact same inventory; and that gets old after a while. You'd think if there were 50 guys already selling VG-EX HOFers from the 50's and 60's that you would have some reservations about being the 51st to throw his hat in the ring, but apparently that's not the case. This is one of the main reasons I love the Toronto show. It's almost all hockey, and there's a ton of different stuff there.
One last point. I'm basically done criticizing dealer behavior at shows. Unless they're really boorish I'm happy to give them a lot of slack. Many of them are, I think, pretty decent guys, but an enormous segment of the card collecting community is comprised of thieves, lowballers and just general jack offs. If I had to deal with that crowd every weekend I'd have my bad days as well. When I was in Toronto last November I was actually at two different tables when a guy stole something. And this is in Canada, of all places. While dealer behavior can get out of hand, it's easy to forget that a lot of buyers can be equally insufferable.
It seemed waaaay smaller than the last Tri-Star show I had been to. And it seemed like everyone was very proud of the stuff they had to sell.
I particularly enjoyed the dealer who take a ridiculous amount of time to look up the six "valueless" autographs, card by card.... And then give me an outrageous price on it. (Do you really need to look up a Corey Webster autograph, really? If it's the nicest Corey Webster autograph on the planet, it's worth what.... $20?) I really gained an appreciation for the dealers who organized and priced thier stuff. Made buying a lot simpler.
I still found a few things to add to my collection. Some nice older LSU players. I'll try to post scans of what I picked up later this evening.
I don't know. I think I'm good with a reputable seller with good scans on eBay for now.
Only an idiot would have a message board signature.
That said, I really enjoy shows, much more than Ebay. I like flipping through stuff and finding something undervalued, undergraded, or both. I think Boo's strategy of looking for obscure stuff to profit from is a good one. My problem is I always wind up spending more than I should, but I'm sure I'm not the only one.
As for the Tri Star comment, I think promoters in general could do much more to make the shows an enjoyable experience for the public. Blaring a cattle call over a loudspeaker at rock concert levels is not one of them.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
The show was smaller than it has been in the past and there really wasn't much variety to this one. It was either game used or autographed or vintage. I was actually looking to pick up some raw 80's RC's (Gwynn, Ripken, Clemens ect.) and walked out buying nothing. I found two tables that even had a decent selection but the cards looked like crap. 83 Topps Gwynn with about 85/15 LR centering and a rough left and top cut and the guy wanted 35 for it. Sam with an 85 fleer Clemens. I did find a nice 77 Ryan, but I was in such a bad mood I didn't see the point in buying one card.
I spent about three hours and just left.
Chipper Jones Basic Topps Set - All 10's for 10
Sam Houston State Alumni Rookie Set
<< <i>Ron - I walked away Saturday with many of the same impressions you had. Not only was the show announcer too loud, but how about the guy at the houston rocket booth screaming into his mic all day long? I ended up spending most of my time on the other half of the show just to avoid having to hear that.
The show was smaller than it has been in the past and there really wasn't much variety to this one. It was either game used or autographed or vintage. I was actually looking to pick up some raw 80's RC's (Gwynn, Ripken, Clemens ect.) and walked out buying nothing. I found two tables that even had a decent selection but the cards looked like crap. 83 Topps Gwynn with about 85/15 LR centering and a rough left and top cut and the guy wanted 35 for it. Sam with an 85 fleer Clemens. I did find a nice 77 Ryan, but I was in such a bad mood I didn't see the point in buying one card.
I spent about three hours and just left. >>
Bear
What a coincidence - when I went there two years ago Jan - the only thing I did pick up was an 83D Gwynn and Boggs for 10 bucks each. I think I gave away the Gwynn in a contest here?
mike
From my perspective searching for vintage stuff, 95% of the dealers were WAY overpriced. Most used Beckett as a "guide" and normally priced their items, regardless of condition, on the high end (and in some cases, higher). It was so frustrating... I try not telling the Dealers that it's overpriced crud; normally say something along the lines of "Thanks but I'm looking for this in better condition."
Seriously, some had zero sharp corners, horribly OC, and creases yet still asked Beckett's high price.
One guy had a '55 TAA Four Horsemen that would have been graded a 3, on a great day. Asking $300 and would consider taking off 10% if I bought 5 other items
Did this guy smoke his breakfast?
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
<< <i>were most of the dealers on the old side of things? Because I've noticed they dont care as much about condition changing the prices on their items. >>
You mean the price doesn't really reflect the condition? That's exactly what was happening for the most part.
Two of the same card, completely different conditions, but the same price.
Overall, the show was mostly new items. If you are into modern, I'm absolutely, positively sure you would have loved this show.
<< <i>That said, I really enjoy shows, much more than Ebay. I like flipping through stuff and finding something undervalued, undergraded, or both. I think Boo's strategy of looking for obscure stuff to profit from is a good one. My problem is I always wind up spending more than I should, but I'm sure I'm not the only one >>
Ron...that's why I dont go to shows anymore. I spend way too much than what i get in return (cards and other externalities...simple pleasure, utility, information, etc). I have gone to a few Tristar shows in San Fran....and i have to drive up there from San Jose (1 hour). Then i need to pay for parking AND then pay an admissions fee. When i finally do get into the show, all my millk money is already gone. Psychologically, I feel that I NEED to make a big purchase and make something out of this show after expending so much energy, time and money just to get in!
If the show was nearby and free, then that's a different story. But, at least in Northern CA, most mall shows are a joke.
With that said, I have yet to attend a National. I may do so just for the sake of experience.
<< <i> With that said, I have yet to attend a National. I may do so just for the sake of experience. >>
The can't miss show of the year ... plus you get to hang out with a bunch of other cool collectors ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
Chipper Jones Basic Topps Set - All 10's for 10
Sam Houston State Alumni Rookie Set
I only go to the shows for the social aspects but if I pick up a few nice cards at a good price, I consider that a bonus.
Inspite of the shows appearing to die off, most of the vintage dealers I spoke to said they need to attend these shows otherwise their inventory will stagnate or dry up and I overheard several talk about what they picked up recently. What truly amazes me is that there are still a lot of ignorant collectors, ex-collectors or brain-dead people out there who walk into these shows with a NM-Mint vintage set from the '60's or NM set from the '50's, or some unopened wax box and sell it to these dealers for some percentage of Beckett and then the dealers break the purchase down and get the stars and mint commons graded and make a least a 500% return if not 1000% on their purchase. When people quit acting stupid is when these shows will finally die off.
Amen to that. These types of people can be broken down into largely 2 categories: 1) the people who don't know what they have but see the ad for the show and stupidly assume that a nice friendly dealer is going to pay them a great price for their treasures. Most of these people could make far more money selling them themselves but are too lazy to do the work to do it; and 2) the guys who are dumping nice stuff because they desperately need money, so they don't mind getting taken. There is some crossover between the two. I saw a guy selling graded '50 and '51 Bowman cards to a dealer (anywhere from 3 to 8). When the dealer stepped away for a second, I started talking to him and told him he'd do a lot better if he sold them himself on Ebay. He just threw me a blank stare like he didn't even know what Ebay was.
Also - I did find some nice raw vintage, it hasn't completely dried up. You have to look carefully and I always ask in advance what the pricing structure is. If it's outrageous, I move on.
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
But, I think some were slightly overgraded and expensive - but he did have a large inventory.
Interesting discussion/read.
mike
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items
<< <i>That would be Kyle Boetel in all likelihood. You are right about expensive. His grading is usually pretty accurate, but I have bought vintage from him before that graded 9. I've also seen cards in his showcases that have surface wrinkles.
Ron >>
Sorry Ron - I wrote that wrong - I'll edit it - I meant to say - some stuff was overgraded.
BTW, he seemed very nice to talk with.
I remember looking at a Campy card that he had nmmt on it - the corners were at best a solid 6 under a 10X.
And yes - I think it was Kyle.
mike
<< <i>Were dealers allowing you to loupe their cards? I know the louping of cards at shows was brought up in another thread. I was just wondering how the dealers were at this show. >>
Ya know Andy
I have never had a dealer say anything when I took out a magnifier - and if he did? Since I have time to think about it? I'ld ask him "if he had something to hide?"
mike
There is another dealer I have bought from and had many a conversations with and always liked, but when I offered to sell something to that person, they became a nasty pit viper and my view of that person has forever changed. I've done this long enough to know what something is or worth, but this dealer acted like I just rolled in off the street with grandpa's collection
"If I ever decided to do a book, I've already got the title-The Bases Were Loaded and So Was I"-Jim Fregosi
Ron
Buying Vintage, all sports.
Buying Woody Hayes, Les Horvath, Vic Janowicz, and Jesse Owens autographed items