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Platinum Proofs
jetpro
Posts: 126
Can someone please explain why the 2006 platinum uncirculated coins are selling on ebay but the proofs are tough to move?
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2006 Proofs
<< <i>Can someone please explain why the 2006 platinum uncirculated coins are selling on ebay but the proofs are tough to move? >>
Because very few collectors were interested in ordering the Plat-W uncirculated sets and consequently very few were produced. As soon as the speculators heard how few were out there they quickly bought them all up and now trade them between themselves for very high premiums.
<< <i>Thanks Mr. Thigpen...You really came through in the clutch with that response.... >>
No problem, The 200 level series course of 'Platinum Bullion flipping for fun and profit' will include such key terms as "It is the way it is.", and "Hype it and they will buy it."
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You are lucky they did not suggest that ttown cut your throat, if you cannot properly commit ritual suicide.
A far more articulate background for the popularity of the uncs can be found here in ericj96's article. Eric brought it to our attention that the mintages would be about 2500 for the larger fractionals and full ounce -- numbers far smaller than those of the recent Platinum Proofs.
Of the five buyers I worked with, I know that two are buying many sets and that one is having them slabbed. On the other hand, one is a business owner and another is a lawyer in a Park Avenue legal firm. All are speculators?
sounds like high end classic coin market
<< <i>"trade them between themselves for very high premiums"
sounds like high end classic coin market >>
You make an excellent point/rebuttal.
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That was the article that won me over for collecting plat proofs...very inspiring. As for the UNC w there is still an element of speculation for the average Joe waiting for official mintage numbers. I personally guess the mintages on the 50 and 1 oz will be higher than what numismatic news has out. But low mintages none the less. I say this because I bet the sales dont include the last surge 2 weeks before christmas, that was motivated by eric's thread about last chance for 50s that caused the close out at the mint in short order. Thus the 10 and 25 are more close. But I am speculating this too.
<< <i>"trade them between themselves for very high premiums"
sounds like high end classic coin market >>
I would disagree. In my opinion, many buyers of these fresh from the mint, low mintage, instantly created rarities have pretty much zero interest in the coins themselves other than what they are worth to the next speculator on Ebay and what the premium is this week. This fact is also clearly apparent as many don't even open the boxes the coins come in.
I am not disagreeing with your statement, it is true that there are more than few who only bought these mint products to make quick profits. But even that should be a blessing for the whole coin market IMHO. If at least one flipper becomes a true collector whether modern or classic, isn't this good for the whole coin community. I myself flipped few of 20th gold sets and reinvested into the coin market and someday I hope to buy one your coins with the profits I make by flipping modern craps
David
"No problem, The 200 level series course of 'Platinum Bullion flipping for fun and profit' will include such key terms as "It is the way it is.", and "Hype it and they will buy it."
I love it. Bet you didn't buy any....you don't understand that collectors of anything love rarity. These coins are the rarest design based US type coins since 1915 and one of the top dozen since the 1870s.....but we must not let such facts get in the way of our perceptual barriers can we. Maybe next time when good data is dumped in the boards lap and you have a no risk 30 day return option from the mint at zero cost you will get your mess together and act. But maybe not........better to make fun of others that were paying attention AND ACTING when you should have been...........
ericj96
<< <i>
<< <i>"trade them between themselves for very high premiums"
sounds like high end classic coin market >>
I would disagree. In my opinion, many buyers of these fresh from the mint, low mintage, instantly created rarities have pretty much zero interest in the coins themselves other than what they are worth to the next speculator on Ebay and what the premium is this week. This fact is also clearly apparent as many don't even open the boxes the coins come in. >>
Then you'd be wrong since you can see from the proof mintage year to year there's a least 15 to 20k collector base from the different Platinum options sold.
I had a 4 paragraph response written to this, and I had to decide that it just wasn't worth a thoughtful, reasoned response........
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>"No problem, The 200 level series course of 'Platinum Bullion flipping for fun and profit' will include such key terms as "It is the way it is.", and "Hype it and they will buy it."
I had a 4 paragraph response written to this, and I had to decide that it just wasn't worth a thoughtful, reasoned response........ >>
I'm glad to see that you're not silly enough to take it seriously.
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<< <i> Of the five buyers I worked with, I know that two are buying many sets and that one is having them slabbed. On the other hand, one is a business owner and another is a lawyer in a Park Avenue legal firm. All are speculators? >>
The experience of this board member in selling his plats pretty backs up what Dragon has said here.
As has been said in other threads, the PR mintage has to be added to the MS mintage to understand the true pop of these coins. Also what counts is not mintage but survival or “population”. There are many many coins that trade at “type” prices despite a total pops in MS that are a fraction of the 2006-W plats.
<< <i>Maybe next time when good data is dumped in the boards lap and you have a no risk 30 day return option from the mint at zero cost you will get your mess together and act. But maybe not........better to make fun of others that were paying attention AND ACTING when you should have been........... >>
I don’t think anyone is making “fun” of anyone here. I think that some are merely observing what is happening the market for these plats, and some board members do not like seeing these being hyped here by people who are looking to turn a quick profit on their holdings. Had I bought some of these from the Mint I would have flipped them too by now. Always neat to double your money over night. But that would not have changed the fact that the price is being buoyed by speculators.
CG
<< <i>That's a nice avatar, is that your dog? >>
Yeah, that's Tedi, one of our three retired Greyhounds.
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<< <i>
<< <i>That's a nice avatar, is that your dog? >>
Yeah, that's Tedi, one of our three retired Greyhounds. >>
Very nice, Greyhounds rock!
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I bought a bunch of different Mint Specials this year W-gold, Unc Plats etc and I sold 1/2 of them for a profit. Now, I have gone and spent all the money on classic coins. Woe is me. Woe is me. I speculate and can't even hold onto the money.
Ah, you sold half? Did they pay for themselves then? But now the money is gone? lol lol lol. You are hopeless. lol
Thigpen, good for you! Our Chesapeake Bay Retriever was running down the road, lost and full of ticks when we got her, and she's been a total joy.
I knew it would happen.
"There are many many coins that trade at “type” prices despite a total pops in MS that are a fraction of the 2006-W plats."
Please point out 12 US type coins with total surviving POPULATIONS BASED ON DESIGN AND DENOMINATION ISSUED TO THE GENRAL PUBLIC since 1875 that are rarer than the 2006-w plat . I am talking about total slab pops for ANAC, PCGS, and NGC combined.
Please point out these "many many coins". I have done a detailed review of total type pop reports for NGC, ANAC, and PCGS before I made my statement, maybe I made a tabulation error . Please bring forward your data to support your statement this sould be educational for us all.
ericj96
Edited to add: The proof mintages of those coins were also less than the plats, and the proofs have a depressing effect on the price of the P coins in mint state.
Edited to add this example: 1875 dime. Total NGC and PCGS graded pop 614 coins. Who cares what ANACS pop is. Even if you double the the 614 you are less than half the 2006 W plats.
LINK
CG
Overall rarity and published mintages are often times meaningless without a corresponding long term popularity and collector demand. This is widely apparent in the pop. reports for coins which have a total number graded in any grade selling for just a tiny fraction of more popular coins with total pops. in the thousands or more.
The reason for the consistently low mintages on all the Platinum Eagle coins since inception is obvious.........low overall collector based demand, and the new Plat-W's were no exception. As I've said before, the current market price for them reflects they are mostly being held in the hands of short / medium term speculators who leave them in a closet somewhere until the time seems right to dump them off to the next speculator on Ebay or they need to pay off their high Mastercard balance, and the price may indeed continue to rise until the very last speculator feels they can no longer dump them to someone else on Ebay for a nice profit, that then becomes the top of the market and price peak for them.
From my notes:
Seated type coins active by design and denomination since 1875 in MS grades.
Variety 4 PCGS NGC ANAC Total MS by Type.
Seated Liberty Dime Legend MS 6470 1369 1357 =9196
The total surviving MS pop as a type coin indicates the coins are not rare. Nothing close to the 2006-w plats in terms of design and denomination based rarity. There are some that are rarer by design and denominational total pop but not many.
PS: My pop reports are over 6 months old.
ericj96
It's also pointless to compare modern bullion related coins to regular coins struck for circulation. The mint produces these modern eagles for collectors based on the current price of the underlying metals plus a corresponding premium. These coins are not produced nor intended to be circulating coins. If you want to compare bullion related coins, there have been quite a few bullion related coins produced by various mints throughout the world that have published mintages as low as a few hundred total pieces or less that trade very close to melt prices because there is no underlying collector demand for them and no one cares about or hypes them.
Thats certainly understandable to want to collect what you collect and I can respect that. My point was the 2006-w plats are in fact very design and denomiational type rare on a scale that has been rarely seen in the last 100 plus years and it is a flat numerical fact that some do not wish to accept...... rational or not. It does not matter what you collect or if you think they are goin to tank to melt. The point is they are crazy type rare for a US issue. Period.
ericj96
If I am wrong please educate me with raw data.
"These coins are not produced nor intended to be circulating coins" Let me guess 1895 proof morgans NCLT. $50 Pan Pac slugs NCLT, Allmost all the old commems NCLT.
All struck on bullion......at a premium to collectors. No different from moderns. You just like to pick at moderns and not classics struck for the same reasons ....not to circulate bound for collections.
ericj96
I happen to believe that it was very shrewd of "us" to have bought the Plat, Gold and Silver "W" Eagles and Anniversary Sets while they were so cheap because nobody else wanted them or because we recognized a good opportunity and had the guts to take the plunge. You are not obligated to buy any of these coins, so what's your issue? If it's such a bad deal, don't buy one.
I knew it would happen.
Modern coins, Platium, GAE, SAE, sets have been great this past year and I am sick of the dealers who don't like it. What they don't like is their "stuff" with 30 to 100 percent markups lingering. I took exception to Stack's article in Coin World two weeks back. Nonsense.
All coins originate at the US Mints and many have been sold too expensively by dealers and I can prove it. People are still buried in them. Have fun. Regards, Michael
Six figure coins are NOT a HOBBY.
I am with you...............
" Ericj96 I too have purchased the Plats as well as W Gold and Reverse Proof gold and SAEs all in 2006. I have made a tidy sum and don't disagree with you or anyone who buys coins. Regardless of the fact that I resorted to calling people "Prigs" because they don't know me and they don't know what I buy. I don't have to say all there is about my collection or library to buy what I like with out some pedantic sob telling me I am into "Modern Crap" I saw some great information on these boards and captialized justifiably. They are nice coins, Moderns, I joke a bit, just a bit and say I didin't make out. I did. I just wanted some other coins so I didn't keep the money too long.
Modern coins, Platium, GAE, SAE, sets have been great this past year and I am sick of the dealers who don't like it. What they don't like is their "stuff" with 30 to 100 percent markups lingering. I took exception to Stack's article in Coin World two weeks back. Nonsense.
All coins originate at the US Mints and many have been sold too expensively by dealers and I can prove it. People are still buried in them. Have fun. Regards, Michael
Six figure coins are NOT a HOBBY "
Best Wishes,
ericj96
Yeah....some coverage beyond Coin World & NN Letters and anonymous opinion op-eds.
Perhaps contacting assignment editors at the Washington Post, Chicago Times, the LA rag, SF Chronicle, even that piece of crap, birdcage lining NYT will do..Hey maybe even the WSJ, you know make the middle column on the Front Page?....yeah,..yeah... that's the ticket, let a reporter in on the silent coup.
The evidence is overwhelming on the low mintage, the high prices on EBay, reporters just love this kind of stuff!
I don't think we will see any big drop in prices if this happens.
Eric, would you submitt to an interview, since YOU started it?
Your figures and comparisions are misleading. Each coin in a series stands on its own. I have just shown you how individual coins in the seated dimes have total pops in mint state that are a fraction of the 2004-w plat. The fact that they will change the design next year is really not relevant to the issue of the rarity of this coin from the perspective of collectors assembling sets of MS plats. An 1875 MS64 dime costs $375-$390 retail. Higher grades cost more, lower grades cost less. Anyone assembling a set of seated dimes needs one for their set—just as anyone assembling a set of plats needs the 2006-W for their set. In either case a collector can opt for an MS or a PR coin. So you need to add in the proof mintage of the 2006-W plat, which you persist in refusing to do in this and other hype threads you have posted in.
Collect whatever you want. There is no “wrong answer” in choosing to collect a series. But if you are going to tout a coin as a rarity you need to present the total mintage of the coin in all finishes and you need to consider the collector base. Now, if there are so many collectors of the MS plats, why didn’t they buy this coin from the mint? Answer, the collectors did just that but that left a big part of the mintage available to speculators like the guys on this board who bought and are flipping. But now the coin is being touted as a rare coin and an investment piece and the speculators have jumped into the fray.
Lets see what this is worth once the hype dies down in a year or two. I suspect that prices will be down but that this coin will always trade at a premium to others in the series becuase it looks rare.
<< <i>If it's such a bad deal, don't buy one. >>
jmski and others who think these coins are such great rarities, how many have you purchased at going ebay auction prices? It is one think to be into these at the Mint original issue price and quite another at more than twice the price.
CG
It is too tiring to keep posting to a 'brick wall' and I suggest everyone cease posting facts and logic so you can save it for the Newspaper Reporters.
Forget about logic. Just tell us how many sets you have bought on ebay at current market prices?
CG
Ahh, Cal?....Cal?.. you are a day late and a dollar short, because those MS Plats you think are the same as the PR plats have exclusive PCGS/NGS numbers.
It's too late pal!, let it go.
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, AND EVERYONE WHO GRADES SAYS THEY ARE NOT THE SAME, AND SO DOES THE MARKET.
That is a Law, btw, never fight the market.
CG
I bought (1) FS PCGS MS69 Set from a Board Member's sister yesterday.
I bought (2) FS PCGS MS70 $10's, + (1) FS PCGS MS70 $25 + (2) FS PCGS MS70 $50.
I am selling (1) FS PCGS MS69 $100 to help "defray assembly costs".
Unfortunately with Monday's POP release, we are going to see a huge deficit in MS70’s emerging, particularly in the $25 coin. I am actively looking for the PCGS FS $25/$50 in MS70 because the $100 PCGS FS MS70 will top $4k within the next month or so.
Hopefully, if we can get a National write-up, it might be over $5K....ya better buy some!
My basic premise is that the US mint is training collectors to collect by design not date and mint mark as it's primary thrust and this is obvious to those who are paying attention. The definition of type coin collecting is ------"collecting coins by design, denomination and composition". If the design changes from coin to coin its a type coin. If just the date and mint mark change each year its one of the whole series and does not have any design based type rarity. Design based type rarity is a stronger form of product differentiation than just changing a date and mint mark.
As far as the cameo proof and mintstate issues being considered the same coin I suggest you check out the grading services type listings. Proofs and mint state coins are not listed as the same type because the physical apearance of the coins is so profoundly different. The Red book's structure for type coins also reflects that cameo proofs and mint state coins are different types otherwise there would not be two columns for the same coins with the same grade. Type sets do not mix proofs and MS coins for a series in general. BOTTOM LINE..... CAMEO PROOFS AND MINTSTATE COINS ARE NOT THE SAME TYPE COIN. THAT IS HOW CLASSICS ARE CLASSIFIED AND THATS HOW MODERNS ARE CLASSIFIED USING STANDARD US COIN PRACTICE.
Therefore my statement that the 2006-w Unc plats are very rare based on collecting by profound physical appearance differences (TYPE COLLECTING) IS CORRECT.
ericj96
CG
ericj96
ericj96