Conservation or Cleaned?

covers

I am basically a novice I guess. I recently sold a coin on ebay here. I think it was purchased from Richard Long. Anyhow, it came back from purchaser in an NCS slab as "AU Details Improperly Cleaned" - it appears maybe to have had something removed on obverse at top but not mechanically as near as I can tell and certainly not any heavy cleaning agent that I can tell (coin still has some original luster not visible in scans).

What should I watch for on Spanish Colonial coins so I can spot this? Also, why is what was done to this coin any worse than NCS's "proper" method of cleaning (conserving)?

coinpictures

Just out of curiosity, why did the purchaser send it into NCS rather than NGC?

When you send a coin into NCS, you are telling them to do something to the coin, as opposed to NGC, where they are rendering a verdict on the coin as is (if it's cleaned, they bodybag it).

Sounds to me like you are eating the cost of the buyer having told NCS to do something to the coin, whatever that "something" is.

Unless I'm misunderstanding (quite possible ), and the buyer simply sent it to NCS for encapsulation rather than conservation, but that would imply that the buyer suspected or knew there was something wrong with the coin before he sent it in.

Did the buyer tell you what he was planning to do before he did it?

Regarding NCS conservation, I believe they use strictly nonabrasive methods.

covers

The buyer did not inform me that he was going to send in the coin for grading when he purchased it. I gave a refund as I hadn't described it as cleaned.

I thought that maybe if you sent a coin to NGC and it was cleaned they just put it in a NCS holder - but don't know.

I recently purchased some additional Spanish Colonial coins (including a 1799 4 reales from Long that he described as "simply one of the choicest 4r coins I've ever seen") and was going to collect the area but now I am getting cold feet if I can't spot why my 2r coin was called improperly cleaned.

ajaan

<< <i> thought that maybe if you sent a coin to NGC and it was cleaned they just put it in a NCS holder - but don't know. >>


They will not do this. NCS service is an additional charge. Also, just because NGC said it was cleaned doesn't necessarily mean it was.

covers

If NCS had "conserved" the coin and called it MS62, or whatever, would they still put it in a NCS slab? Meaning I should not buy a coin in a NCS slab????

Sorry to be so naive in all this - trying to understand really. Thanks for the comments.

ajaan

If a coin is in a NCS holder than it is a problem coin and it will be stated on the label without a grade assigned. Some coins are 'conserved' by NCS and they will be put into NGC holders without any mention of a problem. These coins receive a grade.

spinaker2000

If you refunded this buyer his money because NCS said it was cleaned, and in the auction the coin is stated as AU. I'm adding you to my list of favorite sellers! NCS will slab a coin as authenic after conservation, or you can request and pay extra to have them send it over to NGC for grading and slabbing.

ajaan

<< <i>NCS will slab a coin as authenic after conservation, or you can request and pay extra to have them send it over to NGC for grading and slabbing. >>


NGC will only slab it if it is no longer cleaned, damaged, scratched, or whatever.

covers

OK - I understand (I think) about going to NCS and then to NGC for grading after "conservation."

This sounds like possibly a better way to go on coins I'm not certain of than sending to PCGS and risk having them come back in a body bag.

I have a group of foreign at PSGC now for grading.

covers

ajaan - You hit one of problems that sticks in my craw - "it is no longer cleaned" - if they know NCS cleaned it (a less polite word than conserved) - how on earth can they not call it cleaned.

ajaan

Usually NCS can't conserve a cleaned coin. They are used more for coins that have spotty toning or are dirty.

coinpictures

<< <i>The buyer did not inform me that he was going to send in the coin for grading when he purchased it. I gave a refund as I hadn't described it as cleaned.

I thought that maybe if you sent a coin to NGC and it was cleaned they just put it in a NCS holder - but don't know. >>



The only way a coin ends up in an NCS holder is if the coin is submitted to NCS to begin with, which means the buyer wanted NCS to do something to the coin.

There's something wonky going on here:

1. If the buyer thought it was a no-problem coin, he would have submitted it to NGC, and it would never have made its way to an NCS slab.

2. If the buyer did think there were problems, why didn't he contact you?

Please tell me you only refunded the buyer's purchase price, not the NCS fees in addition. If a buyer expected me to eat the certification/conservation fees without having ever consulted with me prior to submitting the coin, I would be livid.

ajaan

Covers, take a look here to see before and after NCS images.

covers

I refunded only the $182.50 the guy paid. He also wanted to return a second coin he had purchased but I had described that one as cleaned. Customer is always right ...

ajaan - so, why isn't that top coin described as "cleaned" when we have photo evidence of the before state.

In postal history (which I deal in) once a cover is restored, which most collectors don't object to, it always should be offered as restored. Such restoration is almost always visible to the trained eye or with UV light.

1jester

<< <i>Covers, take a look here to see before and after NCS images. >>



In looking at most of those NCS before/after pics, a couple things strike me: 1) the after shots almost invariably look really nice, and 2) compared to the before pics, sometimes I prefer the uncleaned coin, because when they conserve the coin, the old skin and toning are stripped too. Oh well.

covers

Thanks to all for the responses.

What is the "secret juice" that NCG uses to clean their coins that is improper cleaning if anybody else does it and "conservation" if they do it?

Can what they do be detected without before and after shots?

I'm still missing something here.

danglen

You can submit coins to NCS with a proviso that they be slabbed by either NCS or NGC. If the coin has a problem that cannot be fixed chemically, then they will holder it in an NCS holder. If they can fix the problem without moving metal (ie; removing PVC, ugly toning, etc.), then they will walk it acreoss the hall to NGC and have them slab the coin in an NGC holder.

I submitted an 1864 Small Motto 2 Cent piece to NCS because it had some globs of stuff on it. The coin had beautiful mint luster and I was hoping to get it back in an MS holder. Because of the value of the coin, I thought it was worth having the globs removed professionally. Whatever they did to the coin, it came back looking a sickly pink color and they had the @#$%^&amp; to call it "improperly cleaned, corroded, AU Details". I can honestly state that if the coin was improperly cleaned, I ABSOLUTELY know who did the "improper cleaning". Since then I have been told by other dealers that they will not submit copper to NCS. I am no longer an NCS fan.