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1811 Bust Halves - The latest in a great series of informative threads on Capped Bust Halves --- Pos
numisma
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The following is the 1811 thread in this great series of Capped Bust Halves. This date is not in sequence because I ending up traveling out of the country after the FUN show and did not return until yesterday. I apologize for getting things out of whack.
General guidelines (as borrowed from previous threads in this series):
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays, although exceptions are allowed if a timing conflict exists (as in my case!).
Here's a link to all prior year threads for you reference. Special thanks to CoinAddict for compiling this list. The link is to his compilation thread.
YOU CAN POST TO THESE THREADS ANYTIME...IT IS NEVER TOO LATE!!!
PLEASE CONTRIBUTE: Post Bust Half pictures with or without descriptions, or just make a comment indicating an interest. ALL INPUT IS MUCH APPRECIATED.
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1811
A total of 13 varieties are known for this date. With a recorded mintage of 1.2 million coins, it is one of the lower mintage issues of this series and, in my opinion as such, underrated in terms of current market value. There's one overdate obverse die for this series, which was used to strike O-101 and O-102, the 1811/10 variety. O-101 is also the very popular "Punctuated Date" variety. Although common, this variety will usually pull a few extra bucks due to the coolness factor. In higher grades, however, O-101 demands a significant premium. In addition to the overdate and punctuated date varieties, type collectors often seek the "Small 8" and "Large 8" varieties, as listed in the Red Book. The "Small 8" varieties are O-105 through O-113 and the "Large 8" examples are O-103 and O-104. there are no great rarities found among the 13 known varieties, although a couple of R.5 varieties are getting tough to locate.
Here's an 1811 that I recently sold. It is O-112a and considered an R.5 variety. It is differentiated from O-112 by the more distinct die cracks and additional die cracks, specifically on the reverse through "STATES". I enjoy this variety due to the die deterioration resulting from over usage. All 1811 varieties are tough to find well struck as a direct result of the early U.S. Mint stretching the limit of their working dies. This variety is certainly no exception. Here's a closer view of the obverse of the same coin (to show the attractive, iridescent toning when tilted at an angle):
Please share your 1811 halves with us now!
General guidelines (as borrowed from previous threads in this series):
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays, although exceptions are allowed if a timing conflict exists (as in my case!).
Here's a link to all prior year threads for you reference. Special thanks to CoinAddict for compiling this list. The link is to his compilation thread.
YOU CAN POST TO THESE THREADS ANYTIME...IT IS NEVER TOO LATE!!!
PLEASE CONTRIBUTE: Post Bust Half pictures with or without descriptions, or just make a comment indicating an interest. ALL INPUT IS MUCH APPRECIATED.
*****************************************************************************************************************************************
1811
A total of 13 varieties are known for this date. With a recorded mintage of 1.2 million coins, it is one of the lower mintage issues of this series and, in my opinion as such, underrated in terms of current market value. There's one overdate obverse die for this series, which was used to strike O-101 and O-102, the 1811/10 variety. O-101 is also the very popular "Punctuated Date" variety. Although common, this variety will usually pull a few extra bucks due to the coolness factor. In higher grades, however, O-101 demands a significant premium. In addition to the overdate and punctuated date varieties, type collectors often seek the "Small 8" and "Large 8" varieties, as listed in the Red Book. The "Small 8" varieties are O-105 through O-113 and the "Large 8" examples are O-103 and O-104. there are no great rarities found among the 13 known varieties, although a couple of R.5 varieties are getting tough to locate.
Here's an 1811 that I recently sold. It is O-112a and considered an R.5 variety. It is differentiated from O-112 by the more distinct die cracks and additional die cracks, specifically on the reverse through "STATES". I enjoy this variety due to the die deterioration resulting from over usage. All 1811 varieties are tough to find well struck as a direct result of the early U.S. Mint stretching the limit of their working dies. This variety is certainly no exception. Here's a closer view of the obverse of the same coin (to show the attractive, iridescent toning when tilted at an angle):
Please share your 1811 halves with us now!
0
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<< <i>I do not know what the Overton number is, please help
That's a tough one to attribute due to the picture resolution/size, but I am going to say that it is O-110, R.1. I used the following diagnostics to reference Overton for the variety: 1) position of "I" in motto to second "T" in STATES on the reverse, 2) position of stars 1, 7 and 13 on the obverse in relation to dentils and design elements, 3) date position and orientation, and 4) the denomination on the reverse (particularly the stem in relation to "C".
There are other diagnostics that you can use since you have the coin "in hand", but from that image, the diagnostics that I listed are about all we have to use. BTW, I like that coin. Nice looking piece.
Thanks for a fine start to this 1811 CBH thread.
========================================
Here is an O-110 for comparison.
Some diagnostics for Small 8 1811 O-110 R1:
Obverse: Stars 1 & 7 both point between dentils. The date slants to the left. (Obverse shared with O-113.)
Reverse: “AM” joined at base. “5” is slender. Arrowheads are narrow, and separated. “I” is centered below “T”.
1811 O.112
FWIW, this isn't a rare die marriage, should be R3 and 112a should be regarded as R4 when trying to figure a value.
This thread sure has some pretty coins.
Some diagnostics for Small 8 1811 O-112 R4-:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. A crack shows from rim, through star 9, to upper ribbon end, and into hair. Usually a crack also shows from center of “181” across end of bust, inner points of first three stars, across two inner points of star 7, and to edge. Another crack usually shows from top of “11” through star 13, and to edge at star 12. An EDS exists with only the first crack at star 9. Star 6 has extra points on the two lower right points.
Reverse: End of the olive stem completely covers the "C" in "50 C". Dr. Peterson refers to a “keyhole” at the top center of the shield, pointing up and to the right. A centering dot shows on crossbar 5. Center arrowhead is recut. Left side of “I” under right side of “T”. “50 C” is low, and bottom of “5” is slightly broken. (Reverse shared with O-113.)
Note: This specimen lacks some of the tiny cracks needed for O-112a.
<< <i>Overton 101 - 1811/10 or 18.11 NGC MS63.
Tough coin in that grade. Nice.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Here is an 1811 O-107 R4
It is a combo of Obv 4-s2 and Rev E-s2
Obv- last 1 shows clear re-cutting at the upper serif as well as a re-cut 8, most show a fine crack from the edge to the curl between the date and star 13, the 81 is slightly closer than the 18 or 11 and there is a center dot on the neck
Rev-there is a center dot on crossbar 4, a die line slants down from crossbar 2 into the right wing, a crack from the edge joins the 2 lower arrowheads and circles left across 50C-the olive leaves and the legend around to AM, most specimens show die lines in the field between the birds neck and left wing, another crack from the edge to the tip of the left wing.
It utilizes Obverse 6 with Reverse F
Obv-there is a center dot on the neck and the 8 shows crude overlapping circles
Rev-The 5 is slender and the 50C is low,there is a tiny spike on each side of the right wing tip
Some diagnostics for Small 8 Double Punctuated Date 18.1.1/10 O-101 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper edge of dentil. There is a low dot between the “8” and the second “1”, and a smaller much higher apostrophe on the second “1”. To the right of the date can be seen remnants of a “0”. A spike protrudes into the field from the top front of the cap. Miss Liberty’s mouth is well open. (Obverse shared with O-102.)
Reverse: There is a double segment above the last “S”. A centering dot shows between crossbars 4 & 5 at left. “I” is centered below “T”.
Some diagnostics for Large 8 1811 O-103 R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of dentil. Several parallel die lines show in front of bust. The “8” is large. A tiny centering dot shows on neck.
Reverse: Crossbars 1 and 3 extend well into right wing. Centering dot shows between crossbars 4 & 5 at left. There is a tiny spike protruding from the upper right corner of the shield. “I” is centered under right side of “T”. (Reverse shared with O-102.)
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
NOW WE KNOW WHY THE 1811/10 O-101 IS R1
SAY POORGUY. THAT MS63 PUTS YOU OUT OF THE POOR CLASS. TIME TO CHANGE HANDLES.
Some diagnostics for Small 8 1811 O-105a R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to upper half of dentil. “81” is closer than “18” or “11”. A tiny centering dot shows on neck. (Obverse shared with O-107.)
Reverse: Crossbar 1 extends well into right wing. A number of die marks show in the upper left crossbar area. A centering dot shows between crossbars 4 & 5 at left. “TE” is joined at top. On this LDS, a die crack goes almost completely around. Left side of “I” under right side of “T”.
Another O-112. Easy to attribute by the Obverse die crack at star 9. This has not advanced to the "a" die state.
I love the lusterous sheen and deep toning this coin has. New holder ANACS VF35. I will buy all you have if they look this nice.
Large photos help see all the little dings, ticks and marks but this coin is lovely when viewing with the naked eye.
Another tough die marriage to find in any grade. EF-45 and AU specimens are rare. Souders in "Bust Half Fever II" estimates that there are only total of 450 surviving specimens in all grades for of both the O-101 and the O-102 combined. This is half the estimated survival of the more popular and more expensive 1814/13 and 1817/13 overdates. 450 pieces is even less than the estimate for the very pricy 1815/12. The 1811/10 is truly an underappreciated overdate.
If you are looking for this die marriage, try to find a specimen as original as possible. When you find one, don't be turned off if the coin is weakly struck and/or lacks milling, because this is one of the diagnostics of this coin.
This was the second and final usage of obverse die 1, originally used on the 1811/10 O-101 overdate. Because of its state of wear the die is renamed obv. die 1-s2. Because of the heavy lapping to remove signs the overdate the upper curl is now far out from the headband, the mouth is wide open, the small dot between 11 is gone leaving a remnant of a dot just above the milling and the stars on the left are sharp and the stars on the right are flat.
Also because of the heavy lapping the obverse is usually weakly struck creating a split grade difference between the obverse and the reverse. The reverse will often grade a full grade higher than the obverse. The milling is almost always gone---at the most you will only find a trace of it.
The O-102 was not struck immediately after the O-101. The O-101 was struck first in 1811 and then obverse die 1 was put into storage for future use, if needed.
Later in the year while striking O-103 using obverse die 2 and reverse die B, the obverse die failed. I presume that no obverse die originally dated 1811 was available to use with the still functional reverse die B.
Not wanting to halt striking while waiting for the new 1811 dated obverse die, the heavily worked on, overdated obverse die 1---now named obv. die 1-s2 after all of the wear and lapping---was combined with reverse die B to strike the O-102 die marriage.
A quick diagnostic for the O-102 reverse (and the O-103 reverse) is that a number of the crossbars extend past the right of the shield into the wing, most noticeably line 1 (the top one) and line 3. You will find a picture of this in the Peterson book.
On VLDS (very late die states) a die crack appears on the reverse from the lower tip of the right wing through the arrowheads and 50 C through the bottom of UNITED to STAT. You may not see it in my photo, but the coin I have shown has the die crack extending only as far as the 0 in 50.
The O-111 die marriage was struck using obverse die 9 and reverse die I. This was the only use of these dies.
The quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) On the obverse there are dots and marks on the cheek just below the portrait's ear.
(2) On the obverse the IT of UNITED are joined. This is the only 1811 die marriage with this diagnostic.
You will find the other diagnostics in the Overton/Parsley book.
The photos of the 1811 O-111, R1:
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The late die state of this die marriage (the O-111a) shows evidence of die wear on both dies.
The milling on the obverse die is beginning to weaken. The obverse die is renamed 9-s2 to show this second stage of die wear.
The reverse die, renamed I-s2, develops a die crack from ES to the right through OF AMERICA, to the arrow points, and across 50 C. to the lower pair of olive leaves. Again, there is little or no milling.
The reverse die crack is completely present on the coin pictured. However, it is a fine die line and can only be clearly seen in the photo as it passes through 50 C.
The photos of the O-111a, R1:
JRocco did an outstanding job of presenting the 1811 O-107, R4 die marriage in this Forum.
(How the Heck did he get such great close-up photos? Don't try to explain. It would go in one ear and out the other. I am an old Guy, you know.)
...so I would like to just skip the diagnostics and talk about the O-107 Prime. This would a great coin for you cherrypickers to look for.
Overton and Parsley describe the recutting at the upper serif of the last 1 in the O/P book.
Actually this very scarce die marriage exists without this "recutting." This is called the O-107 Prime. The O-107 Prime is probably a R5 or R5+ coin.
Because this die marriage exists without the "recutting," many Bust Half specialists believe that this is not a recutting, but a die chip or die cud. This was the second usage of obverse die 4-s2, which was used previously to strike the O-105. There is no evidence of a recut 1 on the O-105.
Some believe that the 1 chipped or a die cud developed early on in the striking of the O-107. This would explain the existence of the O-107 Prime.
The O/P book also goes on to explain that "most specimens show a fine from edge to curl between date and star 13. The O-107 Prime does not have this die crack. This supports the idea that the Prime was one of the first coins struck BEFORE the chipping or die cud appeared at the 1.
If you find an O-107 with the die chip, but without the die crack, then we are shown that the 1 chipped on the die before the die cracked.
Keep an eye out for one of these without the chipped (or "recut," if you will) 1.
Photos of the O-107 Prime:
This obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obv. die 5. This is the first use of this die. I will be used immediately after striking the O-109 to strike the O-106.
The reverse die used was rev. die G. This die was only used once because it broke up during the striking of the O-109.
A quick, easy identifier for this die marriage is the very obvious die crack on the reverse. The primary die crack starts from the edge, joins the left side of the 1st S in STATES, bisects the scroll just left of P and penetrates far into the left wing. The field to the right side of the crack is raised. The field to the left side of the crack is lower.
There are two other reverse die cracks, but the primary die crack mentioned above is all that is needed to be able to attribute this coin.
Photos of the 1811 O-109, R2:
The obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 2. The was the only use of this die. Obverse die 2 broke up during the striking of this die marriage.
The reverse of this die mariage was struck using Reverse die B. This was the first use of this reverse die. The die was used immediately following to strike the 1811/10 O-102. The milling was wearing off of this die during the striking of the later die state of this coin. This explains why there is little milling on the O-102.
Quick identifiers:
(1) On the obverse there are several parallel lines in front of the bust. These are on all specimens. (They can be seen in the photo of my lower grade O-103. They are covered up by "dirt" on my O-103a.)
(2) On the reverse several crossbars extend into the right wing. Most noticeably the first (top) one and the third one. They are obvious on both of the following reverse scans.
SIDENOTE: The O-103 and O-104 are the only two Large 8 1811 die marriages. I find it interesting that the Mint produced three obverse dies using the large 8. Two of them were used on the O-103 and O-104. One was left over and later overstruck to produce the very rare 1812/11 large 8 variety. Both the O-103 and O-104 were struck closer to the middle of calendar year 1811. I wonder why this "extra" third large 8 die was put aside and not used during 1811.
Photos of the 1811 O-103, R3 Large 8:
*********************
The late die state of the 1811 O-103 die marriage.
As the obverse die started breaking up as crack developed in the die. The later die state with this crack is called the O-103a.
This die crack begins from the edge up along the left side of the second 1 and up across the clasp in the drapery to the curl and to the ear. On the example shown the die crack stops at the curl below the ear.
Photos of the 1811 O-103a, R3 Large 8:
Some diagnostics for Small 8 1811 O-106 R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. Upper forecurl curves away from headband. (Obverse is LDS of O-109.)
Reverse: A diagonal die line drop off into the feathers, from right end of crossbar 2. Multiple parallel die lines show in the field above eagle’s left shoulder. A centering dot shows on crossbar 4 at left. “A” and “M” are joined at base. “I” is centered under right side of “T”. (Reverse shared with O-107.)
Some diagnostics for Small 8 1811 O-113 R5: (Rarest 1811)
Obverse: Stars 1 & 7 both point between dentils. The date slants to the left. Milling is usually weak or missing. Notice the edge lettering is rolling over the lower left obverse rim. (Obverse is LDS of O-110.)
Reverse: End of the olive stem completely covers the "C" in "50 C". Dr. Peterson refers to a “keyhole” at the top center of the shield, pointing up and to the right. “A” and “M” nearly touch. On this LDS, a crack shows at top of “D STATES”. A faint crack runs from lower tip of right wing down through arrowheads, 50 C, olive leaves, and to “U”. Left side of “I” under right side of “T”. (Reverse is LDS of O-112.)
Here are my EDS and LDS coins:
My O-112 appears to have a planchet flaw above the date.
Photos of the 1811 O-112, R4-:
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Photos of the 1811 O-112a, R5:
Edgar
Edgar
Edgar
Edgar
First is the 1811 O-108, R2:
****************
Next is the Late Die State with 3 die cracks:
(1) Across tip of left wing to UNITED S.
(2) Another crosses first crack from edge to scroll just left of the first S.
(3) The third from tip of right wing to arrow shafts.
The LDS usually has little or no milling.
Photos of the 1811 O-108a, R2:
That's a "eye popper" O-108a! Most are even weaker in the center details of the obverse. Yours, with that stretched metal look towards the edges, almost makes the obverse central device of Miss Liberty pop right off the coin! Nice piece. OK, where are you finding these beautiful pieces?
Edgar
Mark specializes in Bust Coinage. He has a table at a half dozen or so coin shows a year---mostly on the West Coast. He sets up at the Santa Clara Expo (coin show)---Santa Clara is a San Jose suburb---when the show is held every six months---the next one is in November. (As I type this, Mark is probably setting up his table for the Long Beach show this week.)
I am a Groupie of Mark Emtman. In my humble opinion, his coins are perfectly described, conservatively graded, and fairly priced. Mark is not always the cheapest (price-wise), but in his case you get what you pay for and he gives you very fair dollars for your Busties if you want to trade up.
About 80% of his (resale) coins are raw. Mark takes the time to painfully type (with an old fashioned typewriter) on every 2 x 2 a complete, well described description of the coin. Pedigrees are listed. Problems, if any (very few of his coins have problems), are listed, etc. If you forget and leave your loop at home, no problem, Mark's coin description(s) tell you everything you want to know about the coin(s).
On the first day of the Santa Clara show, when the doors are first opened in the morning---move out of the way, or this 265 pound frame of mine will trample you while I run to Mark's table.
mgoodm3 she has a good home..."-)
Currently Listed: Nothing
Take Care, Dave
Currently Listed: Nothing
Take Care, Dave
That Bustie is superb! I love it!
The Whisker Cheek Collection - Top 50 Peace VAM Registry
Landmark Buffalo Collection
I love that blue-green toning.
This is one of these times where you may think this die state collector (me) is completely nuts.
According to the 3rd Edition of the O/P book the 1811 O-104 has a circular obverse die crack and ANOTHER die crack from the edge through the upper two points of star 2.
The 3rd Edition continues the die crack diagnostics explaning that on the O-104a the die crack at star 2 continues up thru stars 3 to 5 to forecurl.
Dutifully---following 3rd Edition guidelines---I located an 1811 O-104 and O-104a both in AU-50 for my collection.
Later I discovered that the 3rd Edition of the O/P book was incorrect. This correction was first published in the BHNC Errata for the 3rd Edition.
The 4th Edition of the O/P book corrects the error. On the O-104 there is only a die crack from the edge to the upper points of star 2. There is NO circular die crack on the O-104.
Why might you think I am nuts? Upon finding the REAL O-104 with die crack only going from the edge to the first upper point of star 2, I quickly replaced my AU-50 O-104a---that I once thought was the O-104 (with the circular die crack) with the REAL O-104. Albeit only VF-30.
Yes, a Die State Nut will often down-grade a coin just to get the RIGHT one.
SIDENOTE: Steve Herrman in his AMBPR states that the O-104 with no circular die crack is probably a R6, NOT a R1.
Photos of my 1811 O-104, R1 (with only the die crack at star 2):
Rarity rated by the BHNC as R4 for "very scarce."
Unlike the more common O-105a, R2, the O-105 has NO reverse die cracks.
Photos of my 1811 O-105, R4:
Some diagnostics for Small 8 1811 O-113 R5: (Rarest 1811)
Obverse: Stars 1 & 7 both point between dentils. The date slants to the left. Milling is usually weak or missing. Notice the edge lettering is rolling over the lower left obverse rim. (Obverse is LDS of O-110.)
Reverse: End of the olive stem completely covers the C in 50 C. Dr. Peterson refers to a keyhole at the top center of the shield, pointing up and to the right. A and M nearly touch. On this LDS, a crack shows at top of D STATES. A faint crack runs from lower tip of right wing down through arrowheads, 50 C, olive leaves, and to U. Left side of I under right side of T. (Reverse is LDS of O-112.)
Here is another example of the O-105 die MARRIAGE, but it is an Intermediate Die State.
First, the O-105 DM is one of the easiest to attribute with the upper crossbar extending boldly into the right wing about 2 mm. This is marked with a YELLOW ARROW on my coin.
The O/P book describes the Late Die State O-105a with having a die crack "from edge below leaves left of 5, across tip of stem claw and wing, along wing across scroll through TES, along top of UNITED STA through olive leaves and to top of 5."
On my IDS example I have marked the existing die crack with RED ARROWS. This is a partial die crack that runs from the upper top of the right wing through the scroll to TES and then along the top of UNITED STA.
I have not seen a specimen with the complete die crack as described in the O/P book. Mozin has presented his darkly toned O-105a on page two of this thread, but the toning is too dark to make out the EXACT location of the complete die crack.
Originally I thought the die crack ran through the shield of my coin (GREEN ARROWS), but on second thought what I believed to be a die crack is actually the edge of one of the curls. The curls are clashed into the bottom areas of my coin's shield.
On the obverse of my coin is a very faint diagonal die line under the tiny centering dot on the neck. After seeing this I went back through the 1811 Thread presentations looking for this die line (not described in the O/P book).
Mozin has presented a close up of the centering dot on his coin. Look at Mozin's close up (page 2 of this thread) and you will see a diagonal line below the dot. Again checking my coin a second time, this line is there, but it very faint - impossible to see in a photo of my coin.
At first I thought this die line was the first sign of an appearance of a die crack. ...so I looked at my O-107 which was struck after the O-105 and shares Obverse Die 4. This die line cannot be seen on my O-107. Next I checked a duplicate IDS O-105 in my collection. Nope. No die line on this coin either.
I wonder if anyone else has O-105's or O-107's with this die line.
Photos of my 1811 Intermediate Die State O-105 die marriage: