For you SMS fans out in forum land................

SanctionII

....................... what types of SMS coins/sets in addition to CameosDeepCameos are you looking for and acqiuring?

There are so many different looks/appearances that these coins have that one with an interest in the coins could put together an impressive display of multiple sets for 65, 66 and 67 (and maybe even 64), with the coins in each set having the same look.

Has anyone attempted to do this? I have been assemling cameo sets. However some of the non cameo coins that look so much different and better than the regular tired junky looking SMS coins are very attractive in their own right. I have started putting together sets of these non cameo coins also.

SanctionII

TTT. Anyone care to pipe up. If not, this thread will quickly pass further into obscurity.

Coxe

I did the 65 through 67 sets in cameos (some deep and some just cam). Got the cent and quarter for the 64 set and am looking for the others at the right prices. IMO the 1964 SMS set is one of the true rarity opportunities among the moderns. Most colelctors and even series specialists are completely unaware of them even though they represent extreme rarities far beyond the commonly referred to keys.

DHeath

Coxe, I have the Merkin Estate catalog. Cool coins. Sanction, I have several halves that give the illusion of being struck in aluminum, and of course the cameo/deep cameo coins. Russ is building a set of 67 birthmark die halves. I have two halves (a 65 and a 67) with large die rotation, and many DDO's, including one Wiles lists as URS-1. They are one of my favorite studies.

SanctionII

DHeath, I have put together cameo sets for 65-67 and a couple of coins may even be Dcam (65 nickel and 67 quarter).

As I look for SMS sets with cameo coins, I run across sets with non cameo coins that are really nice. I keep the nicer non cameo coins as singles. Recently I looked at some of these coins. I have a 65 half and a 65 quarter that look like they have cameo frost on the fields and devices on both side of the coins. The appearance is quite striking, almost like the frost was sprayed on. The quarter has a more muted look given the absence of silver. The half just glitters. I have a 65 cent that is similar in appearance to the half and quarter, except that the frosted fields and devices are not as granular in appearance. However, the cent is blazing red on both sides, with no marks in the fields, only a few very minor marks on the lower bust of Abe, a strong strike, no carbon spots, no water spots and the same orange color throughout the coin (no blotchiness). A very nice 65 threesome, IMHO. I am now looking for a matching nickel and dime.

I also have some 65 halves which have a more traditional silver look (not cameo and not like the half described above). The are brilliantly white, with no granular appearance on the devices or fields, have few marks and have strong strikes, including well struck up shields on the reverse. One has some water spotting. Another has no water spotting. In good lighting these halves just scream "I am fine art".

I also lucked out and picked up two 1966 sets with Cameo halves that on closer inspection revealed that they are also obverse double die coins.

I also lucked out and found a 65 cameo quarter that has nice watery mirrors and surprisingly, only the faintest hint of the die polishing mark that usually is found on the field next to the obverse rim at about 2-5 o'clock.

I also lucked out and found a 65 nickel (possibly a Dcam) that has intense frost, watery black mirrors and surprisingly multiple flecks of bright orange copper imbedded in the devices and in the fields of the obverse of the coin. The flecks of copper on the devices are frosty cameo. The flecks of copper on the fields are watery black and mirrored. One can only guess at how this coin ever came about, however it looks like the flecks of copper were on the planchet when struck and that the striking pressure resulted in the flecks becoming imbedded in and part of the coin.

I also have a 67 quarter that appears to be a double die with only IGWT doubled and with the spread of the doubling of IGWT becoming more pronounced as one travels from the rim towards the center of the coin.

I also have some dimes and quarters from multiple years that have toned nicely, with a rich golden color, or with nice watery blue toned mirrors and semi frosted devices. I also have owned nickels that have nice blue toning. I have also had cents that have nice toning on them.

I also acquired 4 1965 sets that have die clashed dimes in them. Still have 2 of these sets left.

The above is just a sampling of the different types of SMS coins I have come across over the years. These sets never cease to surprise me. Most the the sets are of such bad quality you want to gag, however, you never know what type of stunningly beautiful coin you will come across. The prospect of finding SMS Cameo coins and other coins like those described above keeps me looking for these sets. You also can not beat the low prices of these sets, some of which contain the "low hanging fruit" that we love to pick.

As for the 1964 SMS sets, I have never seen one and hope to do so one day. TTFN.

Coxe

<< <i>As for the 1964 SMS sets, I have never seen one and hope to do so one day. TTFN. >>



Here's my cent. Don't know where the image of my quarter is right now. Keep an eye out for these as there are only a couple dozen sets out there.



(And all those guys thought I didn't like moderns......)

cladking

<< <i>

<< <i>As for the 1964 SMS sets, I have never seen one and hope to do so one day. TTFN. >>



Here's my cent. Don't know where the image of my quarter is right now. Keep an eye out for these as there are only a couple dozen sets out there.

>>



Cool.

I've found quite a few oddball SMS coins. I keep one of most things unless it's
just ugly. The one that surprises me most that isn't reported is a strange '66
quarter with what looks like a second top to both 6's between the look and the
top. This isn't extremely rare from what I've seen but isn't reported. It appears
in around .2% of the '66 sets.

Coxe

<< <i>I've found quite a few oddball SMS coins. I keep one of most things unless it's
just ugly. The one that surprises me most that isn't reported is a strange '66
quarter with what looks like a second top to both 6's between the look and the
top. This isn't extremely rare from what I've seen but isn't reported. It appears
in around .2% of the '66 sets. >>



One in 500 is something warranting a significant premium in time in my book. I'll have to check mine and keep my eyes open for that one.

Tyler1924S

These SMS coins are about the newest dates I collect, not really into modern stuff. Then again, I don't consider them to be all that modern. One of my favorites, is a 1967 SMS Lincoln Cent I have that is virtually indistinguishable from a proof coin. There's a coin shop I frequent that sells the 65-67 sets for $15 each. When I don't find something I want (in terms of Buffaloes, Older Lincolns, Morgans, etc.), I'll usually pick up another SMS on the way out. I generally save any I consider to be MS66 or better. The nickel seems to be the hardest one to find in higher grade. Most recently, I found a stunning 1965 nickel with some cameo effect, have it labled MS66. If I find just one with a certain "look" (like cameo or proof) that I really like and/or higher grade, it's well worth the $15 to me.

Boom

One of my 1967 SMS sure stands out as being different. The Nickel, Dime and Quarter sure look Cameo to me.

leothelyon

In 16+ years of collecting the Jefferson nickels, I have been fortunate to locate and sell several of the cameos' for that era. I was strictly looking for those coins that were deeply cameo and had full steps. At that time in the 1990's, ANACS was designating the SMS coins with full steps. They had a pop report then that showed those coins numbers to be very low, 1-3 high graded coins for each date 1965 to 1967. To date, I have only 2 of the 3, with only one of the two having been designated with full steps. Do I regret selling those other coins..........no, as I believe that I have kept the best one. The other came about in the last couple of years. And I know, to get the 3rd and last coin, it's going to cost me dearly but it will be a nice one.

Leo

DHeath

Here are a few pictures of coins I've collected, along with a few 64 SMS coins for Coxe of other denominations.

A few nice nickels, Leo.



A rotated die 67 half, not as rare as the 65, but I don't have a picture on this machine.


A no FG 66 half. The abraded die coins have a unique look.



How about a struck thru grease Washington with a concave head.


Some of the hardest coins to find cameo are the 65-66 Lincolns.



A few halves I just liked the look of....





and a few 64 SMS coins I don't own and didn't find.

SanctionII

Thanks for the replies folks. Always a treat to hear from others who like to collect the some of the same coins that I do. Also, thanks for the pics DHeath. The 1964 SMS half is really a great looking coin.

Were the 64 SMS coins distributed as specimen singles or in sets? Further, when were they produced, why were they produced and who were they distributed to?

DHeath

They appeared on everyone's radar when Lester Merkin's (former big band leader and later coin auctioneer/collector) estate was auctioned. They were purchased by Jesse Lipka. There were 10 sets in that sale, and Mr.Lipka reported several of the sets had ordinary halves that were thrown into the silver pile. The others had the unique finish you see in the image. They were submitted to the various services, who were unsure what to call them. NGC called them specimen coins, PCGS called them SMS coins. NO one has been able to find any reference to the sets in any internal mint record, but PhillyJoe here on the boards will continue to look. Mint director Haskell/Simms allegedly ordered much of that material destroyed to make space for more current records, and Esylum notes the some of the material was later discovered unshredded at a landfill and surrendered to a coin dealer. Julian here on th boards had a look at some of the material and commented for the article. I've spoken to several folks at the TPG's and several graders who've looked at the coins, and believe the intent of the coins is unconfirmed, although my personal opinion is that they were experimental finishes for the subsequent SMS sets. The halves were produced post-accented hair, and are of a DMR undocumented in Dr.Wiles book.

Don

cladking

DHeath;

Those are some more really special coins. I've seen more than a few of the Washingtons with an indented head.

SanctionII

TTT, one more time, since I like the subject matter of the thread.

WinPitcher

I'm confused I thought SMS were issued only in 65, 66 and 67.

64 was regular proof?

Steve

cladking

Apparently the mint started experimenting with the SMS process with the '64 sets
and just never really finished. There were also '64 mint and proof sets but the SMS's
were distinctly different.

WinPitcher

thanks clad.

steve

SanctionII

It has been a while since I looked at this thread. Just reread it and enjoyed the information contained in it.

Thought I would send it to the top to see if it generates some additional comments.

bsb

keets

am i the only one who feels the 1964 SMS issues should probably be catagorized as Patterns??? they seem to meet all the requirements of that desrciption as opposed to be real coins intended for circulation or struck specifically for collectors.

ksteelheader

<< <i>am i the only one who feels the 1964 SMS issues should probably be catagorized as Patterns??? they seem to meet all the requirements of that desrciption as opposed to be real coins intended for circulation or struck specifically for collectors. >>

halfhunter

I agree with you folks. The '64 SMS, even though there is no design change, should be considered a pattern.
That's exactly what it is.

Thanks for resurrecting this thread. I'm going to sure start looking thru SMS sets at B&Ms and shows.
Is there any good stuff still in sets in Dealer's inventory?

OK, rotated dies, different finishes, full steps, cameos, funky top '66s, anything else?
Were the dimes usually FB?

Yea, I know, I'm a pain in the azz with all the questions.

DHeath, if you are still around, COOL coins!

Regards,

John

DHeath

Thank you, John.