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1812 is the twenty-fourth informative picture thread covering the Capped Bust Half Dollar series. Sh
coinlieutenant
Posts: 9,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
General guidelines:
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
Link to all prior year threads
YOU CAN POST TO THESE THREADS ANYTIME...IT IS NEVER TOO LATE!!!
PLEASE CONTRIBUTE: Post Bust Half pictures with or without descriptions, or just make a comment indicating an interest. ALL INPUT IS MUCH APPRECIATED.
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1812 CAPPED BUST HALF DOLLARS
Mintage of 1,628,059 places 1812 13th lowest of the 29 mint years. There were 6 obverse and 8 reverse dies used for mint year 1812, forming 8 marriages. There are two additional overdate varieties as well...one a major rarity, the O-101.
Typical strike for 1812 is refreshingly strong on average due to some changes implemented in die design.
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Here is a lovely example of the less scarce overdate, O-102.
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
Link to all prior year threads
YOU CAN POST TO THESE THREADS ANYTIME...IT IS NEVER TOO LATE!!!
PLEASE CONTRIBUTE: Post Bust Half pictures with or without descriptions, or just make a comment indicating an interest. ALL INPUT IS MUCH APPRECIATED.
====================================================
1812 CAPPED BUST HALF DOLLARS
Mintage of 1,628,059 places 1812 13th lowest of the 29 mint years. There were 6 obverse and 8 reverse dies used for mint year 1812, forming 8 marriages. There are two additional overdate varieties as well...one a major rarity, the O-101.
Typical strike for 1812 is refreshingly strong on average due to some changes implemented in die design.
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Here is a lovely example of the less scarce overdate, O-102.
0
Comments
Thanks for a fine start to CBH 1812. Now I need to get some coins ready to post here.
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OKbustchaser,
Bet you paid big bucks for that Large 8 1812/1. That marriage will likely never be in my collection. I had a shot at a nice original VF in an old collection about ten years ago. Collector got cold feet, and shipped his collection to a California Bust specialist from whom he bought many of his Busties, not Sheridan. Sooooo close...
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stev32k,
Your coin looks great.
Thanks for the attribution, Mozin.
Capped Bust Half Series
Capped Bust Half Dime Series
Here is an O-105
Some characteristics of this die marriage are:
Obv- 81 is closer than the 18 or the 12, there is a center dot on the neck, Most show a die crack from the edge across the 8 to the top of the second 1 then through the curls-out above the eye and to edge through star 6
Rev- large center dot on crossbar 5, arrowheads well separated, line 1 of stripe 6 goes to the second crossbar, there is a double segment opposite A3
Actually, I cherried the 101 from a local dealer. He lets me have first choice when he buys a bust collection in return for me attributing them for him. When I first lay this aside his only question was "Did you find a good one?" Even after I told him what it was he still sold it to me as a common. He said that he was still getting what he needed out of it.
_________________________________________________________________________
Here is another 103.
You are joking right!!!????
siliconvalleycoins.com
AL
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
<< <i>OK,
You are joking right!!!???? >>
True story. I asked if he knew the name of the guy who sold the collection to him so that I could send him a few bucks, but the dealer didn't know it...just that he had several bust halves he had wanted to sell.
Congrats to you on a beautiful example of a true rarity.
Some diagnostics for 1812 O-106 R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. As in the LDS, there is a break which partially fills the lower loop of “8” with a lump. From here, the crack goes upward entirely through Miss Liberty, and into milling at star 6. A second crack from base of “8” goes left joining all stars. A third crack through “2” joins the first crack. On this VLDS, the die is shattered. A heavy break starts at the milling below the “2”, and extends upwards well into the portrait. Sometimes this shattered die shows two distinct levels on the coin, the left side, and the right side of the break. (Obverse is VLDS of O-105.)
Reverse: A strong die crack runs entirely across the reverse from “N” to “F”, heavier at both ends. Crossbar 3 extends far into right wing. A centering dot shows between crossbars 4 & 5 at left. “I” is centered under left side of “T”.
I've shared this one before. If you find it interesting the link below takes you to a more indepth discussion.
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=543388&highlight_key=y&keyword1=1812
102 capped bust half dollars - 100 die marriages
BHNC #198
Your coin shows a lot of what happened in the US mint back in 1812. Thanks for posting it.
Maybe that little event called the war of 1812 had something to do with mint standards lowering a bit.
I love this stuff---talk about history...
Some diagnostics for Small 8 1812/1 O-102 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. This is the only small “8” for the year 1812. About half of the examples show clashed letters below the bust. This coin has none. Stars on upper left are usually flat, as on this specimen.
Reverse: The right base of “N” in “UNITED” is recut, showing to the left. “A” and “M” are joined at their bases, and “A” is higher. “I” is centered under the right side of “T”. (Reverse shared with O-101.)
Some diagnostics for 1812 O-103 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. There is a horizontal die line from clasp into hair at right. Date is wide, and the figures slant to the left. Stars on left are usually sharp, on the right flat.
Reverse: Many vertical die lines show above left wing, just below eagle’s head. There are two dots in the field below “I” in “AMERICA”, and one dot in field hanging down from bottom of “U” in “UNITED”. “O” in “OF” is recut, showing outside lower left. “I” is centered below “T”.
Although the early Halves have many clash markings, has anyone seen one with clashed letters (R T Y) as shown below? Many other clashed markings on this beautiful coin.
Thank You
Welcome to our CU Capped Bust Half Dollar series. Compare your coin with this one. If you believe it matches, you are the first to post this marriage.
Some diagnostics for 1812 O-110 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to center of dentil. There is a very faint bar in the field just below where the drapery is closest to the dentils. On this picture, it runs above the third- through fifth dentils from the left picture edge, somewhat matching the drapery curve, and closer to the drapery. 81 is closer than 18 and 12, and the second 1 slants more to the left.
Reverse: Bases of M and E are close, and E is higher. The second crossbar from the top, and third crossbar from the bottom, extend too far right. A tiny centering dot shows between crossbars 4 & 5. I is centered below T.
<< <i>Might as well use my 100th post to share my favorite bust half die variety - the 1812 O.107 (R.1). The one below is a later die state with all of the cool clashing on the 45 degree rotated reverse (this is the variety used in the Overton "Miscellaneous Information" section to illustrate die rotation). To top it off, this one has a rather pronounced doubled profile. Principal diagnostics: obverse - 1 is high and all figures lean left; reverse - I is centered below left side of T (the die lump above left wing shows up on most examples - as I understand it, the specimens without the die lump are actually somewhat scarce).
I've shared this one before. If you find it interesting the link below takes you to a more indepth discussion.
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=543388&highlight_key=y&keyword1=1812
I want to buy your above coin ASAP !!! Please advise .... Ken
<< <i>Might as well use my 100th post to share my favorite bust half die variety - the 1812 O.107 (R.1). The one below is a later die state with all of the cool clashing on the 45 degree rotated reverse (this is the variety used in the Overton "Miscellaneous Information" section to illustrate die rotation). To top it off, this one has a rather pronounced doubled profile. Principal diagnostics: obverse - 1 is high and all figures lean left; reverse - I is centered below left side of T (the die lump above left wing shows up on most examples - as I understand it, the specimens without the die lump are actually somewhat scarce).
I've shared this one before. If you find it interesting the link below takes you to a more indepth discussion.
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=543388&highlight_key=y&keyword1=1812
I want to buy your coin ASAP !!! Please advise .... Ken
No comment.
...this is not the prettiest coin in my collection, but it is one of my favorites.
The 1812 single leaf is one CBH late die state that I don't think I will ever be able to afford. Your pictures sure make me want one even more. I have all the other single leaf CBHs. Interesting how each mint year has very different single leaves.
Have you ever had a common (or sort of common) coin missing from you collection and for some darn reason you cannot an acceptable one (acceptable one, to you) to buy within your coin budget? Have you looked and looked for this coin and all you can seem to find are the supposedly scarcer coins in the series?
Well, the 1812 O-109 Early Die State was the coin that it "took forever" for me to find. I would find the 1812 O-109a Late Die State "all over the place" (it seemed), but not the EDS.
SIDE COMMENT: This makes me wonder if some of the R1, R2 and R3 die marriages (and die states) in the Busties are correctly rated by rariety. I know that the Bust Half Nut Club revised the rarity ratings of the R4 and higher die marriages in 2004 (and previously in 1998), but what about the lower rated coins? Do they need to be reviewed? How could it be done? Is it possible? Are there too many of them "floating around" unattributed in unknown collections and in dealer's inventories?
For those of you who do not know the revised rarity ratings (done by the BHNC), please note that most of these revisions were NOT posted in the 4th Edition of the Overton/Parsley book. The current (revised) ratings are available for all of the world to see. The easiest way to get these ratings for all die marriages AND for all die states is to pick up a copy of Steve Herrman's AMBPR. ...and if you collect and buy Busties and do NOT have a copy of the AMBPR, you are really, really missing out. Another source for this information is Dave Rutherford's "Bust Half Prices"---this is an Internet source with all of the current revised ratings (a low-cost annual subscription is required).
Back to the 1812 O-109.
The 1812 O-109 EDS I finally found unattributed on eBay. I am not 100% happy with the coin. It does have the scrapes on the reverse. ...but it, to this day, is the only one I have found in an acceptable grade and price (to me).
The O-109 was struck using obverse die 7 and reverse die H. This was the only use of these dies.
Easy quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) On the obverse, the serif and curl of the 2 have square cut ends.
(2) On the obverse, most specimens have a low rounded bump at the inner point of star 10. The O/P book says that ALL specimens have this bump. Not true. Very early die states of this early die state do NOT have this bump. (The coin I have pictured does not have the bump.)
(3) On the reverse there appears to be triple dentil segments below the 5.
(4) On the reverse there is a mound in the shield just to the right of the second gule. (A beautiful picture of this is in the Peterson book.)
Photos of the 1812 O-109, R3:
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The late die state state 1812 O-109 (O-109a) is another die state that is quickly and easily identified.
Thru repeated usage the dies have deteriorated. They are renamed to reflect this die wear.
The O-109a is being struck using obv. die 7-s2 and rev. die H-s2.
The obverse now has little or no milling.
The reverse now has little or no milling. More importantly the reverse has die defect ridges and lumps at the lower outside of the left wing through the olive leaves. Depending on the state of die wear, these ridges could be heavy or (due to die lapping) difficult to see without a magnifier.
Find an 1812 with these reverse die defect ridges and you have an O-109a.
Photos of the 1812 O-109a, R2:
This die marriage was struck using obverse die 4 and reverse die C. This was the only use of these dies.
Quick identifiers:
(1) On the obverse both star 1 and star 8 are 1 mm from the drapery and cap.
(2) On the reverse there is a half of a dentil segment above the U in UNITED. If your coin has milling and if this half of a segment is there, it has to be the O-104.
(3) There is a horizontal die line thru the left wing. It appears to be an extension of either the 2nd or 3rd crossbar. (You may not see this in my photos. Turn to Peterson's book for a beautiful photo of this diagnostic.)
For the O-104 I am showing my Intermediate Die State example. This IDS coin has the reverse die crack thru NITED andf the top of STATES. It has no other reverse die cracks.
The "real" Early Die State coin does not have this reverse die crack.
Because the Early Die State and the Late Die State (O-104 & O-104a) have the same rarity rating, I am at liberty to call my IDS specimen either one of the two numbers. This IDS coin is the O-104 in my collection until I can locate an EDS without the die crack.
(Does anybody want to trade a low grade AU EDS specimen for my IDS coin?)
Photos of the 1812 O-104, R1:
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This is the O-104a Late Die State.
The milling is pretty much "shot" on my specimen.
The LDS has two die cracks:
(1) As mentioned above, the crack at UNITED and the top of STATES.
(2) Another fine die crack from olive leaves across eagle and scroll to OF.
Photos of the 1812 O-104a, R1:
Some diagnostics for Small 8 1812/1 O-102a R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. This is the only small “8” for the year 1812. About half of the examples show clashed letters below the bust. This coin has none. Stars on upper left are usually flat. On this LDS, a tiny crack joins the base of the second “1” to the stand of the over punched “1”.
Reverse: The right base of “N” in “UNITED” is recut, showing to the left. “A” and “M” are joined at their bases, and “A” is higher. “I” is centered under the right side of “T”. (Reverse shared with O-101.)
Some diagnostics for 1812 O-108 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower edge of dentil. Dr. Glenn Peterson calls the first “1” a “jumping 1”, because it is much higher than the rest of the digits. “81” is closer than “18” or “12”, and all figures lean left. There is a tiny centering dot on the neck, and Miss Liberty’s mouth is closed, with curled lips. (Obverse shared with O-107.)
Reverse: “AM” and “CA” nearly touch at their adjacent bases. “A” is higher than “M” at base. Most of the crossbars extend too far right, into the feathers. A centering dot shows between crossbars 4 & 5. “I” is centered under the right side of “T”.
The Obverse of this die marriage was struck using Obverse die 1.
The Reverse of this die marriage was struck using Reverse die A. This was the first use of this reverse die. It was used immediately after to strike the O-102, 1812/1 Small 8.
The obverse die broke up and failed early in the striking of this die marriage. On the coin shown you can clearly see the die crack at the date and going into star 1. The coin pictured has very dark toning, so you cannot see that the die crack at star 1 continues to star 5, then goes through star 6 and finally stops at the milling to the left of star 7.
There are two quick identifiers this die marriage, one is shared with the 1812/1 Small 8.
(1) On the obverse the distance between star 13 and the numeral 2 is less than the height of the large 8.
(2) On the reverse the N is recut. This is seen extending left from the lower right stand of the N going towards the lower right serif of the left stand of the N. Because the O-102 shares the same reverse, this is common on both coins.
SIDENOTE: At least a half dozen times on eBay in the last 2 years I have seen eBay sellers selling 1812 coins as the "1812/1 Large 8" and they turned out NOT to be the REAL O-101. (One seller has been trying the sell the same coin for 2 years now and every once in a while you will see it reappear on eBay at a price of $2,222. He has been told that it is NOT the O-101, but some people only hear what they want to hear.)
It is IMPORTANT for Bustie Buyers to remember that ALL 1812 Capped Bust Halves---except the 1812/1 Small 8---have the Large 8. ...so if you see an 1812/1 Large 8 for sale, DOUBLE-CHECK ALL of the diagnostics. If you do not have the Overton/Parsley book, find a friend who has one.
The O-101 is not as rare as its LDS O-101a. According to Edgar Souders in "Bust Half Fever II," the are approximately 36 surviving specimens extant of the O-101 die marriage in all die states in all grades. No Mint State specimens are known. Only a few are in AU. The rest are all in the lower circulated grades. My hat is off to anyone who is fortunate to cherrypick one of these coins.
Photos of my 1812/1 Large 8, O-101, R5-:
Some diagnostics for Small 8 1812/1 O-102 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. This is the only small “8” for the year 1812. About half of the examples show clashed letters below the bust. Stars on upper left are usually flat, as on this specimen.
Reverse: The right base of “N” in “UNITED” is recut, showing to the left. “A” and “M” are joined at their bases, and “A” is higher. “I” is centered under the right side of “T”. (Reverse shared with O-101.)
Obverse: An additional crack runs from the top of the first 1 in date to Star 1.
Reverse: An additional crack runs from the bottom of A2 to the scroll.
Edgar
P.S. A special Thank You to "Habaraca" for the heads up on this piece!
Edgar
<< <i>OK, you die state collectors have my attention. Now there is another reason for me to blow more money on Busties. >>
My wife can not understand why I yell out loud every time one of you nuts add another monster to one of the threads in this series. I thought I was the only variety guy on these boards for a few years now...then you guys show up------I am like a kid in a candy store because of you guys
Note the wide double-clashing with LIBERTY to the right of the shield and in the shield.
On the reverse, it has what seems to be called bolt threads below the left wing, a doubloe clash below PLURIBUS and a clash under the M in UNUM.
The rim bump is not as bad in hand. It appears that a high grade reeded coin hit it edge to edge as the reeding transfered five very crisp and defined tracks to the edge of this half.
The color is off, as you can see by the backgrounds.
Welcome to our CU Capped Bust Half Dollar series. We now have 126 CU members who have contributed to this series.
You have an interesting O-109a.
Thanks much for attributing it for me. I have a few bust dollars and will try to get pics and participate in more threads. I don't know them in terms of variety though.
1812, O-106(a) "Terminal Die State"
Edgar
…but there is slightly more to the story:
As some of you know, FEVER, myself, Slumlord98 (you cannot be overlooked) and few others posting here are slightly Nutzo over Bust Half die states. (This is an understatement.)
I already had an 1812 O-106 with its fair share of die cracks as a set piece in my collection. When FEVER placed his lower grade O-106a Terminal Die State (the one he replaced with the coin previously pictured above) on eBay, I decided to go for it.
When FEVER’s “old” coin arrived at its new home (my house) I gleefully put the two coins side-by-side for a comparison. (As an aside: I truly wish both of these coins were the same grade for an easier comparison. FEVER, do you want to trade your “new” one for your “old” one?)
The 1812 O-106 DM, of course, was struck using Obverse die 5-s3. The die was first used as Obv. die 5 to strike the O-105, then as the die wore it became Obv. die 5-s2 striking the O-105a.
I am not going to retype here every die crack diagnostic from the O/P book. …but it is quite interesting to read how the die continued to break up in the O/P book. You can do this by first reading the O-105 diagnostics, then the O-105a diagnostics, and follow up with the O-106 die crack diagnostics. What is not mentioned in the O/P is the final, terminal die state of the coin (the O-106a): simply what happens is that the bisecting obverse die crack becomes more pronounced and the left side of the die sinks.
I was really surprised that the two coins are not that different. With only the aid of my trusty 15x, the Terminal Die State from FEVER seems to have the identical die cracks as my O-106 set piece.
…but what is different is:
(1) The sinking of the die is more obvious on the left side of the O-106a.
(2) On the reverse there appears to be a tiny bit of bowing in a straight line between the left and right side of the coin. This is the broken die crack that runs from the N in UNITED to A2. On the coin I have marked DASHED GREEN LINES where I believe I see bowing on the coin.
(3) Also on the reverse, marked with a DOTTED GREEN LINE there is some bowing just above the eagle’s right wing. At first I thought it was a clash mark, but I cannot find any device on the opposing obverse side that would create the clash mark. On the obverse this slight bow is in the field running from the inner point of star 11 to a space between the two ribbon ends.
Following are scans of the two coins. The scans are stacked with the O-106 obverse followed by the O-106a obverse. The die cracks are marked with the red arrows on the higher grade O-106. The same die cracks are on the lower grade coin.
The obverses:
The reverses are shown in the same order. The red arrows mark the die cracks on the O-106. On the O-106a you will see the green lines I talked about above:
Noted your observations on the "neat" multiple levels on the obverse (still understudied in my opinion).
To add a bit to the conversation, according to my notes, this later state, more extreme multiple height was reported by C. Meyer back in 1996. There is also a slight "thickness" in the crack from edge to over Liberty's eye.
Also, an EDS (earlier die state) exists that was found back in 2001 by B. Higgens without the crack from Star 13 to curl and first crack.
This marriage of the 1812 is thought to be connected with the O-105 again, later, in a possible remarriage as a LDS of O-105(a) that shows the obverse with an additional crack that wasn't described by Overton/Parsley until later in the book with O-106's creation with the different reverse.
Wouldn't you love to be able to go back in time and see exactly what they were doing - and more importantly - WHY? Great Stuff!
Edgar
<< <i>Wouldn't you love to be able to go back in time and see exactly what they were doing - and more importantly - WHY? Great Stuff! >>
Yes I would! Shall we take your time machine or mine?
"...This marriage of the 1812 is thought to be connected with the O-105 again, later, in a possible remarriage as a LDS of O-105(a) that shows the obverse with an additional crack that wasn't described by Overton/Parsley until later in the book with O-106's creation with the different reverse."
Here's another piece to your puzzle Ed & Edgar.
1812 O-105a as in above.
LDS with addition cracks on the obverse & reverse.
O/P states "...Same as "D" except a fine crack from tips of leaves at the edge to the top of UNITED."
On the reverse, addition die crack extends under 50 C. and terminates under the C at the rim.
These obverse pictures show toward the end of O-105a LDS.
Is jumping over into O-106!
With O-106a, the filling of right side of the 8, forming a chevron in the lower loop.
This close-up of the date area, have all of O-105a's diagnostics plus O-106.
Additional die cracks at Star 13 edge to curl and from the right side of the 8 up to the
corner of where the shoulder and curl meet.
Because of the condition of this coin the FULL crack can be seen, bisecting the obverse.
The very similar state seen in O-106, with this crack terminating at the rim above Star 7.
Although crude looking I've traced the die crack across the top of the head and into the Stars.
Note the arching crack at the bridge of the nose.
***So Guys if there are any of these elements missing on your O-106's?
I would vote for a re-marriage...
Mike
In order to prove a remarriage, you need to display your 105s and 106s both with and without the cracks, then compare edge dies for confirmation. And remember that sometimes cracks can be lapped off.
The missing die marriage here is O-105.
I don't have reference for it, adding to Ed and Edgars post for comparison of O-105a.
Just adds another piece to their puzzle.
Yes, I agree some die cracks can be lapped off.
But these large ones will still be there..
At this point this obverse was begining to physical move.
Buckling the reverse, how much longer could this have gone on? 2500 to 5000 coins?
How soon was it before the terminal state?
If they find any use for this addition, Good!
If it leads to finding more on possible a re-marriage Great!
I'm greatful they are posting this information.
If I can help, I will gladly do it.
Unfortunately I don't have all four to edge check with.
I know you are sitting there reading over these threads.
You probably have many more years of experience over myself in Bust Halves.
I would like to hear more from you, you are probably brimming with knowledge
and as much so as edmerlr is in enthusiasm.
Mike
Have you read the Ivan Leaman-Don Gunnet paper on edge dies and emission sequence from the '87 COAC? If not, it is a must read for someone with your level of interest. In their paper, Ivan and Don stated that everything appeared to be straightforward in the emission sequence until around 1825. Don told me that it is unlikely that anyone will find a remarriage before that time, as everything appears to have gone straight from the Castaing machine to the coining press. It is possible that they missed this and would be really exciting if you and others have the coins to prove it. While working on the 1805 and 1806 emission sequence, I saw things that led me to believe that several remarriages had taken place (06 107 and 106 was one that seemed like a slam dunk), but further research always proved otherwise. If you study this very carefully by looking at your own coins again as well as others', even if it turns out not ot be a remarriage, you will learn a lot. Also, crack out those coins and study the edges. The edges are as important as the other two sides.
FWIW, I didn't collect CBHs very long, maybe 8-9 years. Now my interest is DBHs; many more interesting die states, new DMs discovered still with some regularity. But I do remember that 12 105 exists as a perfect prime; Downey sold one in MBS 26, lot 9, ex Hilgard and Prouty. With that information, will you reconstruct the sequence that causes you to think remarriage?