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Humidity expert needed!
Saam
Posts: 462 ✭✭✭
Please help! I live in east Texas and my coins are kept in a fireproof safe. The humidity is always over 30% and I can't get it down although I have two dry rods going! I also tried silica, but it does not work either. Surely there is someone out there that has found a solution to this problem. The big coin companies have to have this figured out by now. What is the secret?
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Option B = Move to California!
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>Please help! I live in east Texas and my coins are kept in a fireproof safe. >>
Get them out of that safe. Fire safes are not for storing coins. They are destructive as they naturally, as you are learning, build up humidity inside them. They are also useless against burglars. Many can be simply taken away and any of them can be trivially penetrated with simple tools and things around your house.
I almost don't believe this post is serious. The fact that the safe was qualified as fireproof kind of hints at just a trolling of the forum. If not, just get them out of that box. Even East Texas isn't as bad as a fire safe. In more normal storage, an open cottage cheese cotainer (or similar cup) half full of Damp Rid (Home Depot and many stores sell that dessicant) and changed when it is saturated with water should help out a lot.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
I suggest you send them to me here in Las Vegas.....I'll keep them safe and
dry.....I promise.
bob
IDEAL conditions for the storage of almost any item is between 25% and 40% relative humidity. Keeping metals in a vacuum would be ideal but not usually practical.
As long as you don't exceed 40% RH I wouldn't worry a lot however as a custodian of aircraft we did frequent inspections on them to check for corrosion. I'd recommend the same with your coins. Even putting coins under PERFECT storage conditions and not inspecting them frequently is pretty much just asking for trouble.
.
Some RH is good. A lot isn't necessarily bad. Much has to happen for corrosion to occur and the simple act of keeping coins in decent storage conditions should do it.
Buy some humidity indicators which cost about a buck apiece. They generally have 4 circles on them indicating 20.40,60 and 80% RH. They'll change colors when exposed to the amount of humidity present.
Next time you go to the museum look in the corner of the display box and many times you'll see a glass of water. What's the water for? To bring the humidity up.
Some humidity good.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
If you must have coins in your home and they are not low valued, you might consider a well hidden anti-burglary safe. Fire safes and gun safes are very limited in their protections against theft. It really depends on the value of the coins. A TL-rated vault is a high value one. I'd ask your lock and safe guy for recomendations as well as a good location for it. Kepe the fire safe around and fill it with rolls of pennies and nickels. The thieves can waste time with that.
edit>>
Didn't see the last reply. Next time you go to the museum look in the corner of the display box and many times you'll see a glass of water. What's the water for? To bring the humidity up. Humidity is essential for documents and things like that. An environment that promotes oxidation is not great for coins. Any impurities on the coin's surface, not necessaily salts but lots of things, when in the presence of water can corrode the metal.
NSDR - Life Member
SSDC - Life Member
ANA - Pay As I Go Member
If any of the coins are really valuable you may want to consider the following information from the book Coin Preservation Handbook by Charles Frank.
And familiarity with the info from the paragraph titled other degratative materials from the same book might not hurt. If possible, avoid using those materials and avoid storing those materials in the same container you are storing the coins in. I've taken to storing my better coins in heatsealed Safety Flips or airtites in jars of metal cans with dessicant.
But anyway, 30% humidity doesn't sound like a problem.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
This will help keep the moisture absorbing elements from becoming too moist. You lose fire resistence though.
Relative humidity is the amount of water in the air divided by the amount of water that will be in the air at the dewpoint. The denominator of this fraction goes up with temperature. Thus, if the amount of water in the air is constant, heating the air lowers the humidity and cooling it raises the humidity. In the winter, outside air is low moisture so heating it will cause the inside heated air to be very low humidity.
Cooling air raises the humidity so how does an air conditioner lower humidity? As the air goes through the cooling coils if it goes below the dew point water is taken out of the air (thus you see water running out of air conditioning units) and so when it heats back up to room temperature, the humidity goes down. It may or may not go down below the outside air so air conditioning doesn't always lower the relative humidity.
Putting a dehumidifiier in the vicinity is a good suggestion but heating the inside of the safe is an option often used in gunsafes. If you can keep the temperature inside the safe higher than the temperature outside the safe you're almost guaranteed to lower the humidity. Unfortunately, I'm not sure you could get a wire through the door of a firesafe. These heaters are commeercially available. Some people have used lightbulbs successfully for years but there are many warning of the hazards of using a hot lightbulb and I don't feel qualified to recommend them against the warnings of others.
A depletable moisture absorber should be a great help too. They generally change color letting you know when they are full.
I don't understand the comment that firesafes have a worse humidity problem than other safes. They are generally better sealed so the humidity problem I could postulate would be to close a bunch of warm, humid air up in there and then cool it down. That would be a problem in any safe.
Lastly, some fire safes are also designed as security safes. I believe that fire protection is as important as theft protection so i recommend a combi safe that provides both. I don't recommend keeping extremely expensive coins in the house. If you do, then you become a target of professional theives and they can defeat almost anything. Keep the valuable stuff in a safe deposit box and use the home safe for cheap stuff.
--jerry
Link
"According to Susan Maltby, vulnerable metal coins will
start to corrode when the relative humidity in the
surrounding air rises above 35 percent. Obviously, then, the
risk of corrosion is higher in a damp, humid place such as
Florida than it is in a drier climate -- the kind found in
Arizona, for example. "
From Link
"Fireproof safes and filing cabinets
Often valuable collections and records are stored in fireproof safes and filing cabinets. These thick-walled storage containers have insulation in their walls to prevent fire from damaging the items housed within.
Two types of insulation are used for these kinds of storage cabinets. One is a dry insulation which gives superior protection, but is higher in cost. The second type of insulation is termed a wet insulation and is generally found in lower priced, consumer safes and filing cabinets.
The most common type of wet insulation is a mixture of Portland cement, Vermiculite, diatomaceous earth, and glass fibers. During manufacture this mixture is poured between the walls of the cabinet and allowed to cure. In the curing process moisture is retained by the Vermiculite particles and the diatomaceous earth. During a fire the heat of the fire turns this moisture into steam, which is generated into the interior space of the filing cabinet or safe.
Unfortunately, often moisture is continually generated by the wet insulation and creates a very high humidity inside the safe or filing cabinet, even without a fire. These types of fireproof safes and filing cabinets continue to cure over long periods of time. In the meantime they may create severe mold problems on the goods stored within the cabinet.
Many people have found that they must leave the drawers open almost continually to prevent excessive moisture buildup inside the cabinet. This practice makes the cabinet useless as a fireproof cabinet and requires continual attention on the part of the staff. The solution to the problem is to purchase fireproof safes and cabinetry that have dry insulation and therefore do not have these problems with moisture release and high humidity."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Link
"In concordance with Jeanne Eichelberger's experience, a few years
ago I conducted a CAP survey for a museum which stored records and
film in fire-proof filing cabinets.
I put my data logger into one of the drawers and went to lunch. When
the data were downloaded it was clear that the %RH inside those
particular filing cabinets was approximately 15% higher than the
ambient conditions.
My recommendation to the museum were substantially the same as Ms.
Eichelberger's. Open the drawers weekly and leave them open all
day.
Thompson Conservation Lab.
7549 N. Fenwick
Portland, Oregon USA
503-735-3942 (phone/fax)"
">Does anyone have any experience with the use of fireproof safes for
>the storage of books? We are working with a collector who keeps
>most of the valuable items from his 18th century book collection in
>fireproof safes in his home. The size is about 3 1/2 feet. The
>concern is about the relative humidity in the safes. Instructions
>explain that there is water in the walls as part of the fire
>prevention design. This also causes vaporization. The manufacturer
>sends desiccant tablets that need to be regularly replaced and
>advises that books and other valuables be kept in Ziploc bags. We
>always advise that people not keep books in baggies because of the
>moisture. Does anyone have information, insights or references
>that might help us with this question?
My only encounter with this practice strongly indicates that it's
not a good idea. I once did an onsite preservation survey for a
historical society in our area, and they kept their most valuable
leather-bound books in a small fireproof safe. The interior smelled
distinctly musty when the safe was opened, and there were traces of
what I assume was mildew on the books. The historical society was
on the horns of a dilemma in that their collection was housed in a
lovely Victorian firetrap of a house, with very poor security
against break-ins and theft, so under the circumstances I could
understand their justification for using the safe.
I pointed out the environmental problems with the safe and
recommended that, in the absence of any likelihood that they could
move the collections to a safer building, they should open the safe
whenever staff was there to allow the air to circulate. I also
suggested that they might want to periodically take the books out
and open them to let them air out for a few hours.
That was the best answer I could come up with for that particular
situation. Under no circumstances would I suggest that books,
especially leather-bound books, be sealed in plastic storage bags.
Like the person who submitted this question, I'd be interested to
hear others' thoughts on the subject.
Jeanne Eichelberger
Head of Special Collections and Preservation
University Libraries
Binghamton University
Binghamton, NY 13902-6012
607-777-4309"
and welcome
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
What is your problem?
Now Elisabergs coins had a problem. In my expert opinion caused by humidity changes, but 30% isn't going to
harm your coins. If there is a fire or it gets hot where your safe is then you got a problem as a fire proof safe some who how puts out
more humidity in the warmth.
30%, http://www.trane-dealer.com/dis_50/2905/home.htm
How is the house humidity in the summer?
Believe me those fire proof safes are designed to add moisture
the warmer it gets.
The swing 60% to 30% is the problem.
Even at 60% Dehumidify the area the safe is in.
<< <i> didn't respond to this at first because it asked for an expert and I'm not an expert. Now that I see that hasn't stopped the dissemination of misinformation I'll jump in and add my own two cents. >>
Out of the safe, dude. Bottom line, if humidity is major concern. If security is, then safe deposit box. If you insist on a safe, gonna have to accept the rest of it.
Apropos of the coin posse/aka caca: "The longer he spoke of his honor, the tighter I held to my purse."
Otherwise give me the city and state you live in and the glazing of your house and the window exposures along with the square footage, roof color etc and I will do a load calc for you and fax it to you and you can get the proper HVAC system for the house and use an old time metal safe without fireproofing. I really don't think you have a problem unless the RH% swings rapidly. Which has many causes. Regards, Michael
<< <i>Doesn't anybody know of someone with this problem that has figured it out? >>
If you really want to keep using the safe, and control the humidity of the air surrounding the coins at the same time, you can just use airtight containers with silica dessicant in them and put the containers into the safe. See page 1 of this post for details on how to use inexpensive containers to control the humidity of the air surrounding the coins