I know this may be controversial...but
.jpg)
theczar
Posts: 1,590 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
Seeing Muhammad Ali at the Orange Bowl last night being treated as if he were some god-like individual makes me scratch my head. Yes he was a legendary athlete but what has he done after that? Having a charitible foundation? other athletes have done that.
He is of course notorious for refusing to serve his country. That to me is enough is never to respect him as a man. 57000 other Americans never came home alive from that war and countless others were wounded. He was the biggest self-promoter/manipulator that we may ever had seen in the sports world. If you want to know where this "raise this roof", "in your face", "big time woofing" mentality it started with Cassius Clay. Someone on ESPN claimed that he was the first rap artist. That to me is not something I would want to be proud of.
It is impossible to say who the greatest boxer of all time was, but I would have loved to seen Mike Tyson in his early years with his head screwed on right and away from Don King take on any fighter at any time. I think even the self proclaimed "Greatest" would have been on the canvas. Of course I never saw Joe Louis fight either, but he may have been the real Greatest.
So Ali lovers, enlighten me. What has he done that makes him so great
He is of course notorious for refusing to serve his country. That to me is enough is never to respect him as a man. 57000 other Americans never came home alive from that war and countless others were wounded. He was the biggest self-promoter/manipulator that we may ever had seen in the sports world. If you want to know where this "raise this roof", "in your face", "big time woofing" mentality it started with Cassius Clay. Someone on ESPN claimed that he was the first rap artist. That to me is not something I would want to be proud of.
It is impossible to say who the greatest boxer of all time was, but I would have loved to seen Mike Tyson in his early years with his head screwed on right and away from Don King take on any fighter at any time. I think even the self proclaimed "Greatest" would have been on the canvas. Of course I never saw Joe Louis fight either, but he may have been the real Greatest.
So Ali lovers, enlighten me. What has he done that makes him so great
0
Comments
Shane
<< <i>Seeing Muhammad Ali at the Orange Bowl last night being treated as if he were some god-like individual makes me scratch my head. Yes he was a legendary athlete but what has he done after that? Having a charitible foundation? other athletes have done that.
He is of course notorious for refusing to serve his country. That to me is enough is never to respect him as a man. 57000 other Americans never came home alive from that war and countless others were wounded. He was the biggest self-promoter/manipulator that we may ever had seen in the sports world. If you want to know where this "raise this roof", "in your face", "big time woofing" mentality it started with Cassius Clay. Someone on ESPN claimed that he was the first rap artist. That to me is not something I would want to be proud of.
It is impossible to say who the greatest boxer of all time was, but I would have loved to seen Mike Tyson in his early years with his head screwed on right and away from Don King take on any fighter at any time. I think even the self proclaimed "Greatest" would have been on the canvas. Of course I never saw Joe Louis fight either, but he may have been the real Greatest.
So Ali lovers, enlighten me. What has he done that makes him so great >>
I don't disagree with the basic premise of your post. Ali had/still has charisma and I think that is the major attraction to him.
I've watched the ESPN replays of his fights. Frankly, Tyson wouldn't have stood a chance against Ali. Ali beats him up and quite easily.
He would be champion three times. When he lost the belt, he got it back. He fought Joe Frazier twice--they split the fights. They fought a third time and Ali came on top. He fought Leon Spinks and lost the belt in his later years. He got a rematch and won back the belt. It was feats like this that border on the realm of myth that made him so big. He called his shots and made them come true when it really mattered or was really visible to the public eye.
"Archie Moore goes down in Four" pre-fight phrases like this that sound poetic were later made reality....This is how he became god-like.
He would mouth off, no doubt, but somehow because it was coming from him, people listened and believed.
I am by no means a fan and he was well before my time. I really do not know much about him except for the fact he is a big media figure so it is hard not to know anything. However, I understand the culture behind this phenomenon. I personally like the mold of a Don Mattingly or Jim Abbott, both go about helping humanity quietly.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
Use the computer program from Rocky VI and that's how you would know the result
Tyson can win if he got in his punches, just like George Foreman did a generation early.
Ali had technique and technical skills that can adapt to Tyson like he did with Foreman. On a good day, Ali would know how to counter the effects of Tyson's blows. The later the round goes, the more advantage to Ali. So, despite how powerful Tyson was, Ali would know how to deal with it.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
<< <i>Ali vs Tyson
Use the computer program from Rocky VI and that's how you would know the result
Tyson can win if he got in his punches, just like George Foreman did a generation early.
Ali had technique and technical skills that can adapt to Tyson like he did with Foreman. On a good day, Ali would know how to counter the effects of Tyson's blows. The later the round goes, the more advantage to Ali. So, despite how powerful Tyson was, Ali would know how to deal with it. >>
Decent analysis, but remember that Ali knocked out Foreman. Even if Tyson got in a punch or two, Ali had an amazing chin, and willpower to get back up if he were to be knocked down. It's an easy call that Ali would avoid Tyson and do the rope-a-dope thing, and Tyson would eventually tire out and Ali would most likely knock him out. Tyson was strictly a one dimensional fighter in which a boxer like Ali would have handled him I believe quite easily.
-
I lost best buddies in that misguided war and had buddies who came home totally screwed up. I can tell you this, only one of them ever would have gone back. This war was not only unpopular at home but extremely unpopular with the troops. Having said that, those who participated have my enduring admiration.
I also happen to live about 45 miles from Ali and his charitable work and contributions are legend. If it makes you feel better about the man do some research on him in this area of his life.
Great insights....
I like following your posts and I had always estimated you being much younger than 58. Take that as a compliment. You have that progressive nature in you. Your views were so much more thought out and logical than what the now deceased Open Forum was spewing.
Ali as a draft dodger? You can make a case both ways. Just know that a nation-state should not be the only source of one's identity. There is a separation of pride in your people and pride in the state. However, the nation-state concept we have now (but we didn't a couple hundred years ago) combines the affiliation with a group and the geo-political concept of the nation-state as one entity. This is a dangerous mentality. For example: to be a good German in the 1940s, you must follow the Nazi state. Americans did not have too much of a problem with making a separation of Germans and Nazis. Let us not have a problem with Ali's dissent of a particular nation-state and what he does to his own people. Remember in the first Gulf War when Sadam had "American Guests."? Ali was instrumental in negotiating the release of some of them. He was not touting the American flag, but he wanted to help his people and he did.
I guess to put Ali in a different light.... let us put aside the fact he allegedly threw away his gold medal because he did not want any symbols of oppression or imperialism on him. If a child is sick or having trouble in school, he would definately want to help in that cause. Is that being unAmerican? It is very American in terms of culture, but he could care less about a geopolitical concept.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
I see what you are saying and I don't disagree. I know full well Ali could knock out the big boys and even stand some heavy blows. My main point was that Ali was multidemensional. He had plenty of tools to work with. He can knock out Tyson in 3 rounds or go the distance. It all depended on how the game unraveled.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
He also was an exceptionally talented athlete and speaker.
I and others do believe there was a very good likelyhood that his two fights with Sonny Liston were "fixed". Liston had stong ties to the "Mob" and knew he could not give his best effort against Clay, without suffeing severe consequences.
<< <i>If you want to know where this "raise this roof", "in your face", "big time woofing" mentality it started with Cassius Clay. Someone on ESPN claimed that he was the first rap artist. That to me is not something I would want to be proud of.
So Ali lovers, enlighten me. >>
Sorry, but it doesn't sound like you're very interested in being "enlightened." You sound pretty set in your ways.
Great posts, Irishmike and DeutscherGeist.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
Well put, DBH.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Ali's popularity is one of life's mysteries to me. Back in the Mateen Cleaves era at MSU, for some reason Ali visited East Lansing and had a pep talk with the team prior to a game. Afterwards, they were interviewing some of the players, and to a man they seemed very moved and excited that they met Ali. I remember being very surprised by this. These were kids that were born sometime around 1980. I was born in 1965, and I have really no memories / opinions of Ali, other than he certainly would not be in the top 100 people that I'd like to meet someday, not because I dislike him, but because he just doesn't have any "meaning" to me, if that makes sense.
Anyway, good topic. Something I've wondered about for a long time, and I'm learning something about the man from the other posts.
Grew up watching Ali.
Boxing was super popular back then,
and he was very entertaining both in and out of the ring.
Also, he wasn't just famous here in the USA, he was a world-wide icon.
Better known around the world than Mickey Mantle or Hank Aaron and a lot more fun.
The Muslim stuff turns me off, but back when he converted it was just another kookie religion ...
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
bighurt you surely added a witty comment but did nothing to enlighten any of us. same for you grote except 1500+ posts in seven months means you are cranking out six a day on average. keep up the good work. if you too want to worship him as an icon go right ahead.
i do have an opinion about him and he is certainly not an american hero in my book. i did do a little research and he has many charitlble foundations. he has gone back and forth in his relationship with louis farrakhan. currently it seems to be a positive one as he is donating profits into farrakhan's prostate cancer foundation.
he has been married four times. ted williams was an american hero, so was pat tillman, ditto for jackie robinson. ali is none of these men when it comes to character.
maybe george w. bush and bill clinton weaseled their way out of active duty. that doesn't make ali a better person for it.
with all due respect deutscher geist, ali is an american. as wonderful as our country is, there are still responsibilities. we are not free to pick and choose. if we did that there would be a lot of people skipping out on income taxes. part of that responsibility is fighting for your country when called on to do it. not too many americans who went over to vietnam had a "beef with the viet kong"
as far as he cozing up saddam did he do it with the governments approval? i don't know. i would find it hard to believe that during a war we would send someone over to deal with the enemy.
<< <i>Sorry, but it doesn't sound like you're very interested in being "enlightened." You sound pretty set in your ways
bighurt you surely added a witty comment but did nothing to enlighten any of us. same for you grote except 1500+ posts in seven months means you are cranking out six a day on average. keep up the good work. if you too want to worship him as an icon go right ahead.
i do have an opinion about him and he is certainly not an american hero in my book. i did do a little research and he has many charitlble foundations. he has gone back and forth in his relationship with louis farrakhan. currently it seems to be a positive one as he is donating profits into farrakhan's prostate cancer foundation.
he has been married four times. ted williams was an american hero, so was pat tillman, ditto for jackie robinson. ali is none of these men when it comes to character.
maybe george w. bush and bill clinton weaseled their way out of active duty. that doesn't make ali a better person for it.
with all due respect deutscher geist, ali is an american. as wonderful as our country is, there are still responsibilities. we are not free to pick and choose. if we did that there would be a lot of people skipping out on income taxes. part of that responsibility is fighting for your country when called on to do it. not too many americans who went over to vietnam had a "beef with the viet kong"
as far as he cozing up saddam did he do it with the governments approval? i don't know. i would find it hard to believe that during a war we would send someone over to deal with the enemy. >>
Thanks for proving my point. Good to see you put down the whole, "wanting to learn about what makes Ali so popular" BS and come clean as to your real motives for starting this thread.
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
I also happen to live about 45 miles from Ali and his charitable work and contributions are legend. If it makes you feel better about the man do some research on him in this area of his life.
Excellent points. I agree completely with dallas as well. Ali was a very controversial and very polarizing figure at one time in American culture, there's no doubt about that, but most of us have moved on from that point and accepted him for his many great deeds and incredibly generous charitable acts. Not to mention the fact that he was the most entertaining and one of the "greatest" boxers of all time. But theczar is not posting here to engage in any intelligent debate on the life or boxing skills of Muhammad Ali. It's obvious what his agenda is, and no amount of reasoning or debate will ever change his opinion one iota. That's fine, too, after all, we are living in a free society, so everyone's entitled to an opinion, but why even create such a thread as this when your only intention is to bash the guy in a political context.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>"He is of course notorious for refusing to serve his country. That to me is enough is never to respect him as a man." - that's about as closed-minded and bigoted a thing that people can still say without being immediately recognized as closed-minded and bigoted. Mind you, it's not as silly a thing to say as "checked the box not to fly overseas", but it's close. I'm surprised at how much agreement (or at least how little disagreement) it has received and encourage many of you to consider it a little more. And that's all I have to say about that. >>
A man of little thought and fewer words. Well put.
My Auctions
I urge you to check the history on how Ali got some "American guests" to go with him after meeting with Sadam. This happened just before military action, mind you. It was a time when Sadam was still taking pictures with guests and basically running his own late night show. If you didn't think that was a significant feat on the part of Ali, ask the families of these "guests". Had those "guests" still been in Iraq during the allied bombing raid, they could very well have been put in buildings that ran the risk of getting bombed.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
He is a world renowned figure - he is more popular in the world than any athlete outside of maybe Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan - but even then he still may be more popular. He fought every single challenger worth his weight and he usually won. He ran his mouth and backed it up - unlike Owens running his mouth and dropping passes. He followed a religion which is his choice and when there were rallies and stand ins and boycotts - he was there on the frontline for them. Other famous people are no where to be seen when these things get wild.
He received jail time for not fighting in the war while others received presedential terms - crazy? I'd say so...
Gandhi refused to help Britain - the country that owned his land - to fight Japan.
Do you think Martin Luther King Jr. would have suited up to take lives? I know he wouldn't have gone to Canada, but he wouldn't have joined.
But on the other hand Ted Williams, Pat Tillman, and Yogi Berra and I think Joe D all went to war - but the tragedy here is the millions of fighters that lost lives fighting for us. We don't throw their names around - and yet they were there for us - so you want to talk about real heroes? let's start naming some of our current troops in action right now - and those that have given the ultimate sacrifices for us so we can sit back and chat about sports and whether or not Ali was an icon or hero.
<< <i>I think the 1986-1989 Mike Tyson was the best fighter of all time. Ali, Frazier, Foreman were all great, but THAT Mike Tyson was the best ever. He was unstoppable. >>
I've already stated Ali beats Tyson easily.
Foreman annihilates Tyson probably in the first round.
Frazier - Tyson would have been interesting, but Frazier beats Tyson either early or later in the fight.
Tyson when really analyzed didn't have a strong chin and didn't have the stamina needed for a tough 12 round fight. Buster Douglas showed that.
<< <i>He is of course notorious for refusing to serve his country >>
I wouldn't have signed up for Vietnam, and I certainly wouldnt sign up under Bush. Just my personal choice, just as it was his. I dont judge people on their politics, religion, sexual orientation et.al. Human life is treated way to cheaply by the government to trust in the faith and provenance of those in charge. His decision on Vietnam has no impact on how I think of him. That being said, I don't see how he is the "greatest athelete of all time" (in various polls, tv shows etc) He is one of the greatest boxers of all time, certainly top 3, if not the best. (always debatable to various parties)
Cheers
Leo
<< <i>I wouldn't have signed up for Vietnam, and I certainly wouldnt sign up under Bush. >>
There's a difference between "not signing up" and "not responding when called up." Not that I particularly care for the draft, but that's another story.
<< <i> I think he was somewhat of a coward. >>
Doubt he was a coward.
Celebrities that get drafted don't go to the front lines to be shot at.
They end up touring the bases safely tucked away from any action.
He's no big hero to me, but he really didn't take the easy way out.
Most everyone else would have chosen to spend a couple years entertaining troops over being locked up in a jail cell.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
Ali spent three years in jail because he refused to serve in the military during the Vietnam War--he paid the price. He could have easily gone to another country and become a citizen there--I doubt he would have had trouble finding a sponsor country. He stayed with his fellow Americans and never urged anyone else to go fight a war. He put his religion before the nation-state concept, that's true. BobaFett said it well that humans are treated too cheaply to give into the whims of those in charge of the nation-state apparatus.
What we are left with is: is it more important to serve your people or your country. They should not be always thought of one of the same--there is a difference. Is Count von Stauffenberg a traitor for attempting to assassinate Hitler during WWII because he wanted to protect the German people (his people) from a leader that was leading both the nation-state and the German people to utter destruction (In the end, that's what happened).
I think Ali the philanthropist is more valuable to our society than Ali the war monger.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
During the time he couldn't fight, he was a frequent speaker on college campuses. He also spent this time appealing his draft conviction which was overturned by the Supreme Court in 1971. Because of his ties to the Nation of Islam and his fight to overturn his conviction, he became a prominent national figure in what was left of the civil rights movement. By this time, both Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr. had been assassinated. Leaders in the African American community willing to speak out against the injustices of the time were becoming few but there were always crowds that would turn out to see Muhammed Ali speak. It's because he was able to transcend boxing and become an outspoken leader for his people that he is respected and revered by so many people today. Hope this helps!
Scott
T-205 Gold PSA 4 & up
1967 Topps BB PSA 8 & up
1975 Topps BB PSA 9 & up
1959 Topps FB PSA 8 & up
1976 Topps FB PSA 9 & up
1981 Topps FB PSA 10
1976-77 Topps BK PSA 9 & up
1988-89 Fleer BK PSA 10
3,000 Hit Club RC PSA 5 & Up
My Sets
Sidebar: I wouldn't underestimate young Tyson. When Cus D'Amato and Kevin Rooney were still training him his defense was amazing. Fighting out of the "peekaboo" stance, it was very rare that he would get hit with any solid punches. Once they were gone, so too was his ability to fight, and he became all offense. Razor Ruddock hit him with some huge shots before Douglas exposed him as human. The early Tyson would have been much more formidable than some give credit for - and a fight with Ali would have been competitive.
Bosox1976
<< <i>Great post Scott.
Sidebar: I wouldn't underestimate young Tyson. When Cus D'Amato and Kevin Rooney were still training him his defense was amazing. Fighting out of the "peekaboo" stance, it was very rare that he would get hit with any solid punches. Once they were gone, so too was his ability to fight, and he became all offense. Razor Ruddock hit him with some huge shots before Douglas exposed him as human. The early Tyson would have been much more formidable than some give credit for - and a fight with Ali would have been competitive. >>
Agreed
At any rate, God Bless the Men and Woman of the armed Forces.
I don't have a huge opinion on Ali, other than what I stated above about all athletes. Many politicians get too much praise too.
Guys like Dr. Joseph Warren are more of a hero than Ali...yet nobody has ever heard of Warren. Here is a well to do doctor living in Boston, who was a die hard patriot. He helped the revolution cause to a great degree by getting citizens into the spirit. He didn't have to fight, he could have just been a speaker like Sam Adams. He was well respected and wealthy.
Warren sent Paul Revere on his ride to help others warn the countryside of the British march toward concord in 1775. During the chaotic British retreat back from getting run out of Concord, Warren came to help the minute men and militia by riding with them, rallying them on, and trying to help organize what was a running ambush of minute men, that had no laid out plan. A bullet hit a part of Warrne's clothing, and he lived to tell the story another day.
A couple of months later while he was president of the provincal congress in Mass., the new army was facing thousands of withdrawls or deserters in light of the pending battle at Bunker Hill. Low on supplies and people, Warren rushed to Bunker Hill to help out William Prescott's crew at their redoubt(bunker). When Prescott noticed his superior Warren had come, he automatically relinquished command to Warren. Warren refused command and told Prescott to do with him as he may, and that he would follow Prescott's orders. In this very hard fought battle, Warren battled side by side with the soldiers who were heartened by his courage. This company inflicted glorious damage on the famed British Army.
During the last stand when Prescott, Warren, and the continentals ran out of amunition, and after they had repulsed the British twice, the British finally were able to penetrate the bunker. While much of the continental army was able to retreat(many by cowardice), others were overrun because they stayed until the end, and had no time. Britain had close to 1,000 casualties, while the continentals about 250. After the dust settled, it was found that the good doctor and patriot, Joseph Warren was killed...a valiant effort who gave the ultimate sacrifice.
Warren had a lot to lose, and didn't have to do any fighting. He could have made a name for himself by presiding over the congress. That is a person that should be remembered much more so than Ali.
But could Warren rap, or float like a butterfly and sting like a bee?
There are many unsung heroes we never hear about, but the media and television have created their own brand of American hero and he is who the public adores.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
skin,
I think you've misunderstood the point I was making in my post (my smiling face wink was intended to be facetious )--I'm not saying the media influence and the creation of popular stars is RIGHT, just that the media has a profound impact on popular culture and society, for good or bad.
Let's face it, no one outside of academia or history buffs know or care about Dr. Joseph Warren. Muhammad Ali is a revered hero throughout the globe, and better known than (arguably) any athlete in history. That's just the way it is.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
We can start by reminding everybody that every time we heap praise upon Ali for his 'sacrifices' and stances and such, we should talk about Dr. Warren in the next sentence, and in higher terms.
If somebody just wants to sing the praises of Ali's boxing ability, then fine leave it in that realm, but we shouldn't pour all this other stuff over him when others deserve it much more.
That would sure be a noble endeavor, but I'm afraid such a sermon would fall on deaf ears (for the most part). To think otherwise is just missing the point. I'm also not sure I'm entirely comfortable equating the achievments of an athlete (even a world famous and revered one like Ali) to a man Dr. Warren. Though I understand your point, there are certain comparisons that just seem out of sync to me, and the Ali-Dr. Warren one would fit that bill. I also don't think you can successfully separate Ali the boxer from Ali the man. He's transcended popular culture in that sense, IMO.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I spend a lot of time talking about athletes because it is fun....and many do a lot of great things(but others have done greater things and are ignored. That just isn't right). Maybe somebody on here now knows of Joseph Warren, and will look him up and read more about him. Maybe they will say, "man, that was some dude"
P.S. I'm not a boxing historian, but on the pure boxing end, I think a lot of knowledgeable boxing historians have others as being greater than ALi in the ring.
1. Rocky Balboa
2. Apollo Creed
3. Clubber Lang
4. Ivan Drago
5. Muhammed Ali
Don't worry, math, no one expects much from you anyway in the realm of intelligent discourse.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Wow, witty comeback there!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.