Small Cent Collectors, I need your help...

mrpaseo

Below you will find a list of small cents, I need your input as to why I should include them within my type set. Also, please include anything I might have missed. Finally correct any of my wrong assumptions please.

Let's see how this works out, I hope to do this for each series

Thanks to those that respond,
Ray


~~~Small Cents~~~

Flying Eagle 1856-1858 Goal: 2 coins

-Flying Eagle 1856: Pattern cent

-Flying Eagle 1858: Only one variation of this coin will be included
--Lg letters
--Sm letters

NOTE: I chose to not include the following coins:
1. 1858, 8 over 7: I believe this to be more of an error coin.
2. 1858 Pattern: Pattern



Indian Head Type 1859-1909 Goal: 3 coins

-Indian Variety 1 - Copper-nickel, Laurel Wreath Reverse 1859: I would like to include one of each of the pointed and rounded either variety 1 or 2
--Indian 1859-1860 Pointed Bust
--Indian 1860 Rounded bust

-Indian Variety 2 - Copper-nickel, Oak Wreath with Shield 1860-1864: I would like to include one of each of the pointed and rounded either variety 1 or 2
--Indian 1859-1860 Pointed Bust
--Indian 1860-1864 Rounded bust

-Indian Variety 3 - Bronze 1864-1909

-Indian Variety 3 - Bronze 1864 No "L": This is the only Bronze Indianhead without Longacres initial on the ribbon. The "L" was added in time to make the last production runs of that year and fewer made. Thereafter, the "L" is on all other Bronze IH's.


NOTE: I chose to not include the following coins:

1. 1873 closed 3, open 3, or double LIBERTY variations: To minor of a variation, I believe this was not a decision making change, it happened by accident (Correct me if I am wrong).
2. 1886 feather variety (Pointing in different locations): To minor of a variation, I believe this was not a decision making change, it happened by accident (Correct me if I am wrong).
3. 1888/7 error/variety. I believe this is an error coin.




Lincoln Cent Goal: 19 coins (?)

Lincoln Type, Wheat Heads Reverse 1909-1958

Variety 1 - Bronze 1909-1942, 1944-1962 brass from 1962-1982

-Lincoln 1909 V.D.B.

-Lincoln 1909-1917 w/o initials

-Lincoln 1918-1958 w/ initials

-Variety 2 - Lincoln 1943 steel

Lincoln Type, Memorial Reverse 1959 to date

-Lincoln Memorial 1959-1981

-Lincoln Memorial 1969: Dies were modified to strengthen the design, Lincolns head was made slightly smaller

-Lincoln Memorial 1973: Dies were further modified and engraver's initials FG made larger

-Lincoln Memorial 1974: The initials were reduced slightly in this year

-Lincoln Memorial 1982: The bust, lettering, and date were made slightly smaller

-Lincoln Memorial 1982: Mainly because I already have these.
--P-LG-C
--P-SM-C
--P-LG-Z
--P-SM-Z
--D-LG-C
--D-LG-Z
--D-SM-Z

-Lincoln zinc 1982-2008

-Lincoln Bicentennial 2009


NOTE: I chose to not include the following coins:
1. 1917 Matte (Fantasy coin)
2. No Doubled Die variations will be included (1917, 1936, 1955, 1958, 1969-S, 1971-S, 1972, 1983, 1984, 1995 (Doubled ear)
3. 1922 No D / Weak I believe these were from die wear, not an actual minted coin.
4. 1928-S, 1941-S, 1970-S Lg/Sm mint mark varieties will not be inlcuded as the difference is to small.
5. 1943-D Boldly double mint mark: To minor
6. 1944D, D over S: To minor
7. 1944-1946 Shell casing composition: This will not be included as there is no distiguishable (Visual) difference.
8. 1946, S over To minor
9. 1956-D Traces of second mint mark below To minor
10. 1960, 1960-D Lg/Sm date veriation: To minor
11. 1974 Aluminum: Experimental Pieces
12. 1979-S, 1981-S Filled/clear S: To minor
13. 1990 proof without S: Error coin
14. No Matte, no Proof

291fifth

The 1864 No "L" Bronze cent is a type.

mrpaseo

<< <i>The 1864 No "L" Bronze cent is a type. >>



Please elaborate

AmericanCopper

The 1864 No "L" is the only Bronze Indianhead without Longacres initial on the ribbon. The "L" was added in time to make the last production runs of that year and fewer made. Thereafter, the "L" is on all other Bronze IH's.

CaptHenway

<< <i>The 1864 No "L" is the only Bronze Indianhead without Longacres initial on the ribbon. The "L" was added in time to make the last production runs of that year and fewer made. Thereafter, the "L" is on all other Bronze IH's. >>



He's right.
Also, if you are going to make note of the absense of tin in 1944-46, you must also do so for 1962-1982.
Also, Fix up your inclusive dates to mention correct end dates that overlap with new types.
MOO
TD

CaptainRon

a) In 1860 there were two types as well. One was a pointed Bust, the other a rounded bust.

b) I guess you could also include a shallow 'N' variety (It was a differant reverse hub type)

c) 1909 IHC were also a little differant then it's preds by having the date/mm stuck right onto the Hub as opposed to the die. (I'm almost positive on this one, but would feel more comtable if someone could verify this for me.)

Ron

mrpaseo

Well, I think I have the flying cents down, now onto the Indian Cents



Edited to make it look like english

Cladiator

I like your tactic of consulting specialists to nail down each series. You'll likely finish with an extremely cool set.

ziggy29

Since you're breaking this down into relatively minor subtypes as well, you may want to break up the bronze IHCs into Type 1 obverse (1864-1886) and Type 2 (1886-1909).

RKKay

What about an 1858 pattern IHC?

CaptainRon

What Ziggy said about 1886....

There was two differant obverse types

mrpaseo

Alright, what did I miss?

291fifth

To clarify my earlier comment on the 1864 no "L"

This coin was struck from dies made from the same hub as was used for the copper-nickel Indian cents. If you place an 1864 no "L" next to an 1864 "L" you will be amazed at just how different they actually are. The 1864 "L" was actually a complete re-do of the obverse.

CaptainRon

Halfway through 1886 when they made the change, they kept it this way until they discontinued minting IHC 1909

It is a redbook type, and is so disgtinguished by NGC and PCGS.

Breen notes that it was Barber that did reengraving, and did it in lower relief, as well as the mentioning of the feater placements.

The 1886 Type II, is an underrated toughie in high grades, especially above grades of 64 in the RED condition.

Hope this helps out.
Ron

coppercoins

Lincoln cent to 1917 without initials was included...but you dated the series with initials as 1917-1958...it's actually 1918-1958.

Shellcase bronze 1944-1947

Bronze to 1962, brass from 1962-1982.

You included the matte proofs of 1909-1916, but neglected all other proofs.

That's all I see.

ziggy29

<< <i>This coin was struck from dies made from the same hub as was used for the copper-nickel Indian cents. If you place an 1864 no "L" next to an 1864 "L" you will be amazed at just how different they actually are. The 1864 "L" was actually a complete re-do of the obverse. >>

Yes. That's why it's possible to identify an 1864-L even when it's heavily worn and the "L" is completely worn away.

CaptainRon

Yes one has a rounded bust the other has a pointed bust. (With "L" pointed bust ---- With OUT "L" rounded bust).

TomB

My comment on this is similar to coppercoins in that you are including the 1909-1916 matte proof Lincoln cent as a type coin when you have not included any previous or subsequent proof coinage in your list. This is not consistent. Additionally, there is no confirmed 1917 matte proof Lincoln cent and this entry should be removed immediately from the Red Book, if it hasn't already, because it is a fictitious coin that has been listed for years. Lastly, if you intend to include the 1909-1916 matte proof Lincolns as a type, then you must include the 1909 VDB matte proof Lincoln as a type and should, based upon your expansive use of the definition of type, include the1916 matte proof Lincoln cent as its own type since the hub was reworked that year and the coin looks slightly different from the 1909-1915 matte proof pieces.

mrpaseo

<< <i>My comment on this is similar to coppercoins in that you are including the 1909-1916 matte proof Lincoln cent as a type coin when you have not included any previous or subsequent proof coinage in your list. This is not consistent. Additionally, there is no confirmed 1917 matte proof Lincoln cent and this entry should be removed immediately from the Red Book, if it hasn't already, because it is a fictitious coin that has been listed for years. Lastly, if you intend to include the 1909-1916 matte proof Lincolns as a type, then you must include the 1909 VDB matte proof Lincoln as a type and should, based upon your expansive use of the definition of type, include the1916 matte proof Lincoln cent as its own type since the hub was reworked that year and the coin looks slightly different from the 1909-1915 matte proof pieces. >>



I agree, the Matte and Proof has been removed from my list. I thought I could skimp by with only one, turns out that is not the fact as it has been addressed

CaptainRon

Just in case anyone was wondering what I referring to on how to tell the differance between pointed and rounded busts on the 1864 Bronzes
Even in well circulated conditions, you can generally notice the differance in the bust.

Here is the rounded bust (No L variety) Cheaper of the two bronze types.


And here is the more pointed bust (The "L" variety) More expensive between the two in MS condition and the is considered the top key in the Proof series.

CaptainRon

Here is a couple examples of the Type 1 and Type 2 bronze IHC's
I hope this helps some people out.

The Type 1 ran from the end of 1864 (with L) until the beginning of 1886... You can see the very bottom feather of liberty's headdress points I and C of america, as well as the second to last feather points E and R in America.


The Type 2's ran from the later part of 1886 until the end of the IHC run in 1909 ... Posted here is an example of an 1887 just to show that this was not just a half year run.
You will notice that the last feather on this design points between C and A of americam and the second to last feather points almost directly in the center of the R. There is other design changes as well between Longacres and Barbers, but most noticable in feather locations.