<< <i>Are you talking straight up stats, dallas, for that single season, or are you talking weighted stats based on era. >>
I never talk straight up stats; stats that aren't weighted for era and ballpark are much worse than useless and lead you to absurd conclusions like Alfonso Soriano is better than Bobby Grich, let alone Joe Morgan.
Skinpinch is correct (he always is) when he points out the folly of ignoring caught stealing, but in the case of Soriano the greatest folly is ignoring how many times he walked - or rather didn't walk. Soriano is MUCH closer to Dave Kingman in terms of offensive production than he is to Joe Morgan. I don't know if anyone else remembers Joaquin Andujar and what an adventure it was when he came to the plate; he would often spin himself in a complete circle swinging at whatever pitch was thrown to him. Getting Joaquin Andujar out was about as easy a task as an opposing pitcher could get. And until last year Andujar and Soriano walked at almost exactly the same rate - about once every 30 at bats. Grounding out and striking out 100 times a season rather than taking 100 walks has an enormous negative impact and is the main reason that Soriano compares so unfavorably to the great second basemen.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
<< <i>Bri, maybe you should read how everything went down. . >>
I read exactly how everything went down just fine. By questioning whether I did or not furthers shows your ignorance.
How it went down is someone OTHER than you offered their opinion and you followed it up by a personal attack against them, questioning their sports knowledge and putting a person down who you dont have a clue about.
What you did was call out someone who has been around here for a long time, who has a vastly superior amount of respect and knowledge regarding sports than you have shown or will ever earn on here if you continue the way you are going right now.
When you show one tenth the sports wisdom or respect Grote has shown others on here than please feel free to offer your opinion. Until then get a clue and realize bashing others the way you did will get you nothing but grief around here.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
" Even I would take George Sisler over Lou Gehrig, ................"
Sisler did steal bases much more than Lou, he was considered a better fielder, hit for a higher average in peak seasons than Lou, and of course did pitch a bit, even beat Walter Johnson twice in complete games. Close, but really tough to pick anyone over Lou Gehrig.
Could not resist Steve.
This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
<< <i>" Even I would take George Sisler over Lou Gehrig, ................"
Sisler did steal bases much more than Lou, he was considered a better fielder, hit for a higher average in peak seasons than Lou, and of course did pitch a bit, even beat Walter Johnson twice in complete games. Close, but really tough to pick anyone over Lou Gehrig.
Could not resist Steve.
>>
Jack, to give credit where credit is due my primary gripe about Sisler's place in the annals of baseball history is that his career as a great player is just so short. Prior to his physical problems Sisler was indeed a great player - not Lou Gehrig great, but great nonetheless. While Soriano would be the 30th to 40th second baseman I would pick for this game, by virtue of his peak value Sisler would probably be about 10th on my first baseman list. The dropoff from Morgan's peak to Soriano's peak is much greater than the dropoff from Gehrig to Sisler; it's more like Gehrig to John Mayberry.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Bri, if you read all that went down...then look at my original post - then look at the 2nd post slamming the A-Rod pick but not offering any picks of his own and then look at the 3rd post - calling Soriano a 'glaring error'.
And Morgans peak years came in his 30's if anyone paid attention - when he was with the Reds - and I have a strong feeling that Soriano in the friendly confines of Wrigley field will put up some outstanding numbers. It's amazing how Peter Gammons can tell America how great Soriano is with the 1 stolen base shy of two 40-40's - yet many on here think Bobby Grich is better.
So Bri, be fair in this case - look over my post to start things and then look at the next two. My attacks came after those - not before. They were justified as well - there is no way possible to compare eras - that's why there are debates that will go on forever about who the best players were. If it were left to a simple stat, or subject - then it would already be mapped out - but it isn't. On base percentage - although a great stat - doesn't tell the whole story. The stolen bases Morgan had in the 70's versus the homers Soriano has in the 00's don't tell the whole story either.
Someone kept referring to Soriano as the butcher - when news of only 7 more errors in 6 full years versus Morgan comes up...no apologies - just other attacks on Soriano. His prime years can't match up with Morgans prime years because Morgans best stats came when he was 34 and 35 years old...Soriano has already thrown up a 40-40 and a 39-41 and he just hit 30. I still take Soriano - and I still respect those choosing Morgan.
For skinpinch only - Morgans first 6 seasons of over 100 games - 191 stolen bases - 57 caught stealing Alfonso Sorianos first 6 seasons of over 100 games - 208 steals and 59 caught stealing
Let's stop comparing apples and oranges - Soriano outdid Morgan in almost every single category through their first 6 seasons. Granted Morgan had incredible years on the Reds in his 30's - but Soriano who is doing better than Morgan through 6 is now on the Cubs...he is only 60 homers behind with 14 years less of baseball. Since you said Soriano was good...let's leave it at that...I say Morgan is good...I'll leave it at that. Grich however wasn't that good - and putting him ahead of Soriano is nuts - skinpinch will enjoy this - Grich 104 stolen bases - caught 83 times!!! WOW that's barely better than 50 percent.
<< <i>And Morgans peak years came in his 30's if anyone paid attention - when he was with the Reds >>
If you want to stop being "attacked" then stop saying things like this. Do you own any reference material? Do you know how to use it? I'm not even talking about the subjective stuff - Joe Morgan joined the Reds at age 28 and from ages 28-30 put together three seasons so far above anything that Soriano has accomplished that any comparison is laughable. His seasons at ages 21-23 with the Astros were at least as good as any season Soriano has had so far, although you will have to look at ALL of the statistics not just HR and SB to see it. Yes, Morgan's peak years came in his thirties, at 30-32 NOT 34-35, but by then he had already established a career that Soriano has no realistic hope of ever matching.
<< <i>- and I have a strong feeling that Soriano in the friendly confines of Wrigley field will put up some outstanding numbers. >>
Um, yeah. That's the point of the people "attacking" you. If we know that the numbers are a product of Wrigley Field and not any improvement in Soriano, then why on Earth would we give Soriano credit for them? Well, WE don't, so I suppose the question is if YOU know that Wrigley is going to inflate his numbers then why are you already looking forward to giving him credit for it?
<< <i>It's amazing how Peter Gammons can tell America how great Soriano is with the 1 stolen base shy of two 40-40's - yet many on here think Bobby Grich is better. >>
Other than you, I don't know that there is anyone here who doesn't realize that Grich was better than Soriano. And I would be absolutely dumbfounded if I were to find out that Peter Gammons doesn't realize it, too; if Grich had played in Wrigley I have absolutely no doubt that even you would realize it.
John Mayberry, by the way, at his peak from 23-26 was better than Soriano has ever been and is ever likely to be. I think I'd put him at second base over Soriano and just hope nobody hit the ball at him.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Dallas you must be joking...Soriano put up 40-40 with the Nationals...which is not a hitters ballpark. So with that being said, and with Mayberry never even getting 40-6 in a season and with skinpinches analysis of Morgan being better because of the stolen base percentage and Grich throwing out a .556...then where are you coming from? But hey...if you want Grich over Soriano - go for it. Stats may back up Soriano and claims of era may back up other choices - that's fine - so then Ruth should have had 1000 home runs? Soriano in the 70's would have stolen 70 plus bases a season? Mayberry couldn't outproduce Soriano from first...and you want the big boned man to play second?
Only 1 infielder in baseball history according to Sorianos card has had back to back 30-30's. And he is only 1 of 4 to get 40-40 and was a stolen base shy of doing it twice. If his numbers beat Morgan's in his first 6 years in hr's, sb's, rbi's and others...what do you think he did to Grichs stats? That's right..he tore them up...no era helping Grich.
But hey...if we have to continue arguing instead of getting on to new subjects...maybe we can agree on this - Soriano is the top 3 Capricorn 2nd baseman of all time! Then let's move on.
I said I would stop. I meant it when I said I would stop. But I didn't stop. I stopped for a little while. You all saw me stop for a little while. But I didn't stick with it. I should have stuck with it. But I didn't stick with it. I started again. After saying I would stop, and even stopping for a little while, I started again. I let my frustrations get the best of me. I didn't listen to the voice in my head. I should always listen to the voice in my head, but I didn't. The voice told me to stop, but I didn't listen. From now on, I will listen. When my frustrations start to get to me, I will listen. I will not start again. I will find another outlet for my frustrations, but I will not start again. I will beat my head against a brick wall, perhaps, but I will not start again. Nope, not gonna start again. Ever again. I will listen to the voice in my head. I will stop. Not just for a little while. I will stop.
Everyone within hearing of my voice is hereby granted permission, nay is commanded, to shoot me in the head if I ever - EVER - again attempt to debate baseball with math4cards. I am serious. You are to shoot me. In the head. I will do the same for any of you. If you wish.
On second thought, I am weak. Do not shoot me for I will undoubtedly sin again. But please clip this and remind me that surely only heartache awaits me if I ever go down this torturous path. I will now go try to teach my dog to play chess so that I might lower my level of frustration.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
No, don't hate yourself for getting on here...hate yourself for thinking Grich is better than Soriano.
And you still haven't ranked Smith with today's shortstops...
If you seriously think Grich - who already has career numbers being passed by Soriano after only 6 full seasons - is still better - then yes, you are better off teaching your dog to play chess - and with you thinking Grich is better - your dog will probably win.
Comments
<< <i>Are you talking straight up stats, dallas, for that single season, or are you talking weighted stats based on era. >>
I never talk straight up stats; stats that aren't weighted for era and ballpark are much worse than useless and lead you to absurd conclusions like Alfonso Soriano is better than Bobby Grich, let alone Joe Morgan.
Skinpinch is correct (he always is) when he points out the folly of ignoring caught stealing, but in the case of Soriano the greatest folly is ignoring how many times he walked - or rather didn't walk. Soriano is MUCH closer to Dave Kingman in terms of offensive production than he is to Joe Morgan. I don't know if anyone else remembers Joaquin Andujar and what an adventure it was when he came to the plate; he would often spin himself in a complete circle swinging at whatever pitch was thrown to him. Getting Joaquin Andujar out was about as easy a task as an opposing pitcher could get. And until last year Andujar and Soriano walked at almost exactly the same rate - about once every 30 at bats. Grounding out and striking out 100 times a season rather than taking 100 walks has an enormous negative impact and is the main reason that Soriano compares so unfavorably to the great second basemen.
<< <i>Bri, maybe you should read how everything went down. . >>
I read exactly how everything went down just fine. By questioning whether I did or not furthers shows your ignorance.
How it went down is someone OTHER than you offered their opinion and you followed it up by a personal attack against them, questioning their sports knowledge and putting a person down who you dont have a clue about.
What you did was call out someone who has been around here for a long time, who has a vastly superior amount of respect and knowledge regarding sports than you have shown or will ever earn on here if you continue the way you are going right now.
When you show one tenth the sports wisdom or respect Grote has shown others on here than please feel free to offer your opinion. Until then get a clue and realize bashing others the way you did will get you nothing but grief around here.
-- Yogi Berra
Sisler did steal bases much more than Lou, he was considered a better fielder, hit for a higher average in peak seasons than Lou, and of course did pitch a bit, even beat Walter Johnson twice in complete games. Close, but really tough to pick anyone over Lou Gehrig.
Could not resist Steve.
<< <i>" Even I would take George Sisler over Lou Gehrig, ................"
Sisler did steal bases much more than Lou, he was considered a better fielder, hit for a higher average in peak seasons than Lou, and of course did pitch a bit, even beat Walter Johnson twice in complete games. Close, but really tough to pick anyone over Lou Gehrig.
Could not resist Steve.
Jack, to give credit where credit is due my primary gripe about Sisler's place in the annals of baseball history is that his career as a great player is just so short. Prior to his physical problems Sisler was indeed a great player - not Lou Gehrig great, but great nonetheless. While Soriano would be the 30th to 40th second baseman I would pick for this game, by virtue of his peak value Sisler would probably be about 10th on my first baseman list. The dropoff from Morgan's peak to Soriano's peak is much greater than the dropoff from Gehrig to Sisler; it's more like Gehrig to John Mayberry.
And Morgans peak years came in his 30's if anyone paid attention - when he was with the Reds - and I have a strong feeling that Soriano in the friendly confines of Wrigley field will put up some outstanding numbers. It's amazing how Peter Gammons can tell America how great Soriano is with the 1 stolen base shy of two 40-40's - yet many on here think Bobby Grich is better.
So Bri, be fair in this case - look over my post to start things and then look at the next two. My attacks came after those - not before. They were justified as well - there is no way possible to compare eras - that's why there are debates that will go on forever about who the best players were. If it were left to a simple stat, or subject - then it would already be mapped out - but it isn't. On base percentage - although a great stat - doesn't tell the whole story. The stolen bases Morgan had in the 70's versus the homers Soriano has in the 00's don't tell the whole story either.
Someone kept referring to Soriano as the butcher - when news of only 7 more errors in 6 full years versus Morgan comes up...no apologies - just other attacks on Soriano. His prime years can't match up with Morgans prime years because Morgans best stats came when he was 34 and 35 years old...Soriano has already thrown up a 40-40 and a 39-41 and he just hit 30. I still take Soriano - and I still respect those choosing Morgan.
Alfonso Sorianos first 6 seasons of over 100 games - 208 steals and 59 caught stealing
Let's stop comparing apples and oranges - Soriano outdid Morgan in almost every single category through their first 6 seasons. Granted Morgan had incredible years on the Reds in his 30's - but Soriano who is doing better than Morgan through 6 is now on the Cubs...he is only 60 homers behind with 14 years less of baseball. Since you said Soriano was good...let's leave it at that...I say Morgan is good...I'll leave it at that. Grich however wasn't that good - and putting him ahead of Soriano is nuts - skinpinch will enjoy this - Grich 104 stolen bases - caught 83 times!!! WOW that's barely better than 50 percent.
<< <i>And Morgans peak years came in his 30's if anyone paid attention - when he was with the Reds >>
If you want to stop being "attacked" then stop saying things like this. Do you own any reference material? Do you know how to use it? I'm not even talking about the subjective stuff - Joe Morgan joined the Reds at age 28 and from ages 28-30 put together three seasons so far above anything that Soriano has accomplished that any comparison is laughable. His seasons at ages 21-23 with the Astros were at least as good as any season Soriano has had so far, although you will have to look at ALL of the statistics not just HR and SB to see it. Yes, Morgan's peak years came in his thirties, at 30-32 NOT 34-35, but by then he had already established a career that Soriano has no realistic hope of ever matching.
<< <i>- and I have a strong feeling that Soriano in the friendly confines of Wrigley field will put up some outstanding numbers. >>
Um, yeah. That's the point of the people "attacking" you. If we know that the numbers are a product of Wrigley Field and not any improvement in Soriano, then why on Earth would we give Soriano credit for them? Well, WE don't, so I suppose the question is if YOU know that Wrigley is going to inflate his numbers then why are you already looking forward to giving him credit for it?
<< <i>It's amazing how Peter Gammons can tell America how great Soriano is with the 1 stolen base shy of two 40-40's - yet many on here think Bobby Grich is better. >>
Other than you, I don't know that there is anyone here who doesn't realize that Grich was better than Soriano. And I would be absolutely dumbfounded if I were to find out that Peter Gammons doesn't realize it, too; if Grich had played in Wrigley I have absolutely no doubt that even you would realize it.
John Mayberry, by the way, at his peak from 23-26 was better than Soriano has ever been and is ever likely to be. I think I'd put him at second base over Soriano and just hope nobody hit the ball at him.
Only 1 infielder in baseball history according to Sorianos card has had back to back 30-30's. And he is only 1 of 4 to get 40-40 and was a stolen base shy of doing it twice. If his numbers beat Morgan's in his first 6 years in hr's, sb's, rbi's and others...what do you think he did to Grichs stats? That's right..he tore them up...no era helping Grich.
But hey...if we have to continue arguing instead of getting on to new subjects...maybe we can agree on this - Soriano is the top 3 Capricorn 2nd baseman of all time! Then let's move on.
Everyone within hearing of my voice is hereby granted permission, nay is commanded, to shoot me in the head if I ever - EVER - again attempt to debate baseball with math4cards. I am serious. You are to shoot me. In the head. I will do the same for any of you. If you wish.
On second thought, I am weak. Do not shoot me for I will undoubtedly sin again. But please clip this and remind me that surely only heartache awaits me if I ever go down this torturous path. I will now go try to teach my dog to play chess so that I might lower my level of frustration.
And you still haven't ranked Smith with today's shortstops...
If you seriously think Grich - who already has career numbers being passed by Soriano after only 6 full seasons - is still better - then yes, you are better off teaching your dog to play chess - and with you thinking Grich is better - your dog will probably win.