"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Wow! Big coin, Big price! If counterstamped it is no longer a Brunswick Luneburg Celle coin though right? The counterstamp is now the country or state it belongs too and circulated in (my opinion only).
Like Mexican 8 reales with Chinese counterstamps, they are no longer Mexican pieces, but Chinese circulating coins as far as my collecting goes. What are your thoughts on this? I have no chop marked pieces in my collection.
Maybe I am a nitpicker, but if you were listing a coin for almost 20 grand wouldn't you have some really "good" pics to go with it? While most details are pretty clear it seems kind of dark and for that price tag, why not list show a half dozen or more pics of it? I would! Especially of the "planchet flaw" again just my opinion (like I can afford one of these anyway).
Very pretty and thanks for sharing so I can say I "saw" one once...
Rick
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed lamb contesting that vote. Benjamin Franklin - 1779
1836 Capped Liberty dime. My oldest US detecting find so far. I dig almost every signal I get for the most part. Go figure...
Counterstamps and chops are two different beasts, I think.
Counterstamping would be an official remarking of a previously issued coin for official use - like the 8 reales countermarked by the british government during the silver monetary shortage. Generally these coins are listed under the government that issued the countermark. Sometimes they were counterstamped to re-value their denomination, under change in monetary policy or periods of specie shortage.
Chopmarks are the unofficial counterstamps that merchants (typically asian) applied to silver coins in order to test their authenticity. These coins would still mostly be listed under the original country that issued the coin, unless an official counterstamp was applied following import.
<< <i>Wow! Big coin, Big price! If counterstamped it is no longer a Brunswick Luneburg Celle coin though right? The counterstamp is now the country or state it belongs too and circulated in (my opinion only).
Like Mexican 8 reales with Chinese counterstamps, they are no longer Mexican pieces, but Chinese circulating coins as far as my collecting goes. What are your thoughts on this? I have no chop marked pieces in my collection.
Maybe I am a nitpicker, but if you were listing a coin for almost 20 grand wouldn't you have some really "good" pics to go with it? While most details are pretty clear it seems kind of dark and for that price tag, why not list show a half dozen or more pics of it? I would! Especially of the "planchet flaw" again just my opinion (like I can afford one of these anyway).
Very pretty and thanks for sharing so I can say I "saw" one once...
Rick >>
Rick, there is a big difference between a chop-mark and a counter-stamp.
Chopmarks are in the same category as test marks and edge cuts. Here's a bit of a history behind them:
During late 17th and early 18th century silver imported into China traded for Chinese goods and had intrinsic value. That intrinsic value became an addition to the total real wealth of China. As trade increased, China's real wealth grew, because China had a favorable balance of trade, in mercantilist terms. The economic health of China thus came to depend on foreign silver dollars, and the dollars had to have credibility. China had laws against counterfeiting, but they only applied to currency of the Chinese government. Right there was THE rub. Occasional debased fakes were a nuisance over the years. But, with war breaking out between England and Spain in 1779, shipments of Spanish coins dwindled to a trickle, not nearly enough to finance trade with China. To meet this emergency, the East India Company had molds made, and set about casting copies of Carolus dollars of 1778. However, the coining was farmed out to local officials and local labor. The intent of the company was to produce coins of full silver content for their own use. But things did not work out as intended. The natives, out for a quick profit, made for the company coins debased to .600 fine. After that, things went bad. Local officials, seeing the opportunity for instant riches, had Canton silversmiths make even more debased copies of the 1778 Carolus dollar. Since no violation of Chinese law was involved, private parties soon went into the counterfeiting business for themselves. The resultant flood of debased fakes shook the public's confidence in foreign silver coins, and that threatened to undermine the whole Chinese economy. The situation got to the "Something Has Got To Be Done!" stage, and that something was chopmarks. At some time after the fake 1778's started pouring out, merchants and bankers guilds took action to require each merchant and banker to chop each coin they handled, thus putting their endorsement on the coin and guaranteeing its genuineness. The time when this policy came into being cannot be fixed with any accuracy, but it was probably between 1780 and 1785.
A counterstamp, on the other hand, is an official struck mark or stamp applied by a governmental entity to a coin or token to revalue, validate or grant legal tender status in the issuing authority's area of influence.
worldcoinguy
Posts: 2,999 ✭✭✭✭
Comments
Bit outta da budget tho...
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
must be a rather large coin!
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
<< <i>Very interesting mine scene on it too!
I believe that's another countermark - a modern advertisement for Prison Break, on Fox.
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
Like Mexican 8 reales with Chinese counterstamps, they are no longer Mexican pieces, but Chinese circulating coins as far as my collecting goes. What are your thoughts on this? I have no chop marked pieces in my collection.
Maybe I am a nitpicker, but if you were listing a coin for almost 20 grand wouldn't you have some really "good" pics to go with it? While most details are pretty clear it seems kind of dark and for that price tag, why not list show a half dozen or more pics of it? I would! Especially of the "planchet flaw" again just my opinion (like I can afford one of these anyway).
Very pretty and thanks for sharing so I can say I "saw" one once...
Rick
1836 Capped Liberty
dime. My oldest US
detecting find so far.
I dig almost every
signal I get for the most
part. Go figure...
Counterstamping would be an official remarking of a previously issued coin for official use - like the 8 reales countermarked by the british government during the silver monetary shortage. Generally these coins are listed under the government that issued the countermark. Sometimes they were counterstamped to re-value their denomination, under change in monetary policy or periods of specie shortage.
Chopmarks are the unofficial counterstamps that merchants (typically asian) applied to silver coins in order to test their authenticity. These coins would still mostly be listed under the original country that issued the coin, unless an official counterstamp was applied following import.
<< <i>Wow! Big coin, Big price! If counterstamped it is no longer a Brunswick Luneburg Celle coin though right? The counterstamp is now the country or state it belongs too and circulated in (my opinion only).
Like Mexican 8 reales with Chinese counterstamps, they are no longer Mexican pieces, but Chinese circulating coins as far as my collecting goes. What are your thoughts on this? I have no chop marked pieces in my collection.
Maybe I am a nitpicker, but if you were listing a coin for almost 20 grand wouldn't you have some really "good" pics to go with it? While most details are pretty clear it seems kind of dark and for that price tag, why not list show a half dozen or more pics of it? I would! Especially of the "planchet flaw" again just my opinion (like I can afford one of these anyway).
Very pretty and thanks for sharing so I can say I "saw" one once...
Rick >>
Rick, there is a big difference between a chop-mark and a counter-stamp.
Chopmarks are in the same category as test marks and edge cuts. Here's a bit of a history behind them:
During late 17th and early 18th century silver imported into China traded for Chinese goods and had intrinsic value. That intrinsic value became an addition to the total real wealth of China. As trade increased, China's real wealth grew, because China had a favorable balance of trade, in mercantilist terms.
The economic health of China thus came to depend on foreign silver dollars, and the dollars had to have credibility.
China had laws against counterfeiting, but they only applied to currency of the Chinese government. Right there was THE rub. Occasional debased fakes were a nuisance over the years. But, with war breaking out between England and Spain in 1779, shipments of Spanish coins dwindled to a trickle, not nearly enough to finance trade with China. To meet this emergency, the East India Company had molds made, and set about casting copies of Carolus dollars of 1778. However, the coining was farmed out to local officials and local labor.
The intent of the company was to produce coins of full silver content for their own use. But things did not work out as intended. The natives, out for a quick profit, made for the company coins debased to .600 fine.
After that, things went bad. Local officials, seeing the opportunity for instant riches, had Canton silversmiths make even more debased copies of the 1778 Carolus dollar. Since no violation of Chinese law was involved, private parties soon went into the counterfeiting business for themselves.
The resultant flood of debased fakes shook the public's confidence in foreign silver coins, and that threatened to undermine the whole Chinese economy. The situation got to the "Something Has Got To Be Done!" stage, and that something was chopmarks.
At some time after the fake 1778's started pouring out, merchants and bankers guilds took action to require each merchant and banker to chop each coin they handled, thus putting their endorsement on the coin and guaranteeing its genuineness.
The time when this policy came into being cannot be fixed with any accuracy, but it was probably between 1780 and 1785.
A counterstamp, on the other hand, is an official struck mark or stamp applied by a governmental entity to a coin or token to revalue, validate or grant legal tender status in the issuing authority's area of influence.
8 Reales Madness Collection