Does this forum really consist of the unkempt, unwashed masses in numismatics?

Longacre

I always thought that this forum represented a very good cross section of numismatics. We have budget collectors here, as well as collectors who spend millions upon millions of dollars each year on coins. Although there are many more collectors out there who don’t participate here, I always assumed that the people here were more than just the unkempt, unwashed masses of numismatics.

In another thread, there was a response as follows:

“Totally incorrect! If you think this forum is a good sampling of the market-you are wrong. I'll say it again, this forum does NOT have the financial firepower to dent the market. I doubt if every POSTING member bought a coin in the upcoming Heritage sale, it still wouldn't account for even HALF of what will be sold.

Remember, Heritage will get some zany number of actual bidders for the sale-my guess is 10,000. I'd say that blows away the actual number of posters here in one year-let alone the dollar value they will spend!

The coin market is now confirmed to consist of SEVERAL hundred thousand people or more. And surprise! Hardly and of them even bother to check this place out! So this is another case of because it is not in front of you, it can't possibly happen-NOT!”



I don’t want to take the comments out of context, so I encourage you to check out Barry’s thread about who will NOT be buying something at the Heritage FUN auction. Not to harp on this issue, but does anyone agree that this forum is NOT a good sampling of the market? We have some pretty prominent members, and collectively it appears that there is some serious cash that gets thrown around on coins. Although probably some of the upper tier heavy hitters are not active members here (maybe they lurk, though), I don’t think I agree that the forum is not a good representation of the market.

[Note—I have a lot of respect for the person who wrote the quote above. I am not bashing this person. I just don’t agree with the statement].

ziggy29

I'm obviously not a major hot-shot dealer so I can't say, but it seems to me that it's a fairly decent cross-section of collectors overall. It may be a small percentage, but I think it seems at least somewhat representative sampling. We have the young and the old, we have the newbies and the grizzled old vets, we have collectors in every budget range.

291fifth

I think the sampling was much more representative three weeks ago than it is today. The forum is now overrun by modernistas.

MORGANHUNTER2

Wether you are a big player or a small time out of pocket change collector- you are a collector-period.

There are times when the crusty's come out to chat, and they are filled with knowledge that a few of us truly enjoy.

Then there are those that do not have a clue, but enjoy a raging brawl on the boards.

I read, I learn.

What some people ought to do is look before leaping into the frying pan.

if we are unkempt and unwashed, then those in the Armani suits are fake and judgemental, and probably a bit challenged in other arenas of life.

Merry Xmas all!!!!

bhartman35

One problem with the statement is that it mixes two concepts that aren't necessarily related. While it may be (and probably is) true that the majority of coin collectors in the U.S. don't post here, that has nothing to do with how representative a sample we have here, and how much dissatisfaction here would impact PCGS. I personally think we have a good cross-section of the collector community as a whole. And I think that the forum is one of the more visible portions of PCGS. Anyone doing research on a coin is more likely to hit the forum before they hit the submission service, for example. Having said that, if, as Laura suggests, PCGS gets the majority of their money from telemarketing outfits that dump slabbed coins on rubes (which would be a frightenng thing in and of itself) then the forum probably doesn't have much influence. I personally hope that's not the case.

On the other hand, I think the underlying message of the post is valid: The board may be valuable, but it's not indespensible, and we treat it as such to our own peril.

MacCrimmon

The tenor of LS's posts has always led me to believe someone must have beat figurative Hell out of her, numismatically-speaking, before she clawed her way to the top.

Then again, it's probably just a Jersey-thing™.

mgoodm3

Yes, we suck. We are insignificant dust motes on the backsides of real collectors.

kranky

I think bhartman nailed it - the two things are not mutually exclusive.

I do agree that we have an excellent cross-section of people - from budget to deep-pocketed collectors, to dealers, to scholar/authors, all types of classic and modern collectors, real numismatists, and those in it just for the money.

And I think Laura's right in that in the big picture, we represent a tiny fraction of all those active in the hobby.

Dog97

<<<Does this forum really consist of the unkempt, unwashed masses>>>

Hey I resemble that remark! I don't work, shave, wash my clothes or bathe. I'm greasy & nasty cause all I do is ride around from beerjoint to beerjoint on one of my 8 Harley Davidsons (which I also collect) and drink HUGE amounts of Budweiser. My coin collection consists of a circ 1921 Morg, 2 dateless Buffs, & a weird parking lot penny I found at the bridge I live under.

longtimecollector

<< <i>Does this forum really consist of the unkempt, unwashed masses in numismatics? >>



Yup..... Pretty much

Mark

I agree with those who suggested that "we" are a small fraction of collectors. That does not preclude us from being a representative sample. However, I think we are not. I concur with 291fifth that we were more representative three weeks ago. Nowadays the sample is strongly biased toward collectors of modern coins. I think signficantly under represented are 1) Helpful dealers, and 2) "intellectural" collectors, that is, collectors who are interested in the broad scope of numismatics rather than narrow niches.

Mark

cladking

This place is skewed to the young, to the technology inclined, and to the wealthy.

Most importantly it is also skewed to those with larger collections and to dealers.

It's difficult to say how this affects things but there is a large skewing toward those with the time to post.

sonoranmonsoon

<< <i> I always assumed that the people here were more than just the unkempt, unwashed masses of numismatics. >>



OK..I get the message. I will take a shower this month, if it is that important to you.

Coxe

I believe this forum does have representatives of the full spectrum of numismatics. However, it certainly is not likely to be a proportional representation. Notably underrepresented would expected to be the vast hoard of casual common collectors and the pure investors. The folks doing cent or state quarter albums far outnumber SGDE folks and many haven't even considered looking for PCGS' website, much less paying member fees and hanging out on this forum. Pure investors generally don't care for our banter unless it translates into inside tips and are far more likely to be lurkers than two-way participants. Others prefer not to be known and operate in the shadows. I know that reasonably well as I played that way for a couple decades. Some out of paranoia, others don't like the direct confrontation and competition, and one guy I know sees every word commited to a post as a legal liability (part of the paranoid group). Nonetheless, where else can you regularly find top and not-so-top dealers, established numismaic icons, owners of legendary coins you would otherwise only know from the pop reports and auction catalogues, absolute newbies, authors and budding authors, major auction cataloguers, as well as experts in nearly every niche of US numismatics? If this forum is ever closed down, this productive medium of intercourse would be a big loss to the hobby, even if we largely post nonsense and rhetoric. Where else would someone find an explanation of the rotation K number origin .... and in minutes at that? You can't google some information here until google has parsed it from here.

LincolnCentMan

I would say that this forum represents a good mix of collectors. It is probably waited toward the higher end of the education spectrum, since the lower end are less likely to have computers. I would also infer that the average age of all of the form members is significantly less than the average age of all off the coin collectors since there are a lot of "hard headed" age-gifted people out there that dont want any thing to do with computers.

As far as the buying power of the forum members go, I dont see where that should be a large concern aside from mere curiosity. Off the top of my head, I can think of five members that possess million dollar collections. I would imagine that the bulk of the members have collections that pass 10K. Just guessing, I'd say the average forum member probably spends about 5K a year on coins. Sure there are a lot of us that buy less, but there are a lot of us that buy significantly more. I guess this would make a good poll question. Take the results of that cross section of forum members, extrapolate it to the number of registered users, and we could probably come up with a decent + or - 30% estimate of the buying power of the forum members. I'll work on setting up the poll. Anyone know how many forum members there are?

-David

IrishMike

<< <i>I agree with those who suggested that "we" are a small fraction of collectors. That does not preclude us from being a representative sample. However, I think we are not. I concur with 291fifth that we were more representative three weeks ago. Nowadays the sample is strongly biased toward collectors of modern coins. I think signficantly under represented are 1) Helpful dealers, and 2) "intellectural" collectors, that is, collectors who are interested in the broad scope of numismatics rather than narrow niches.

Mark >>



I am very interested in the broad scope of numismatics.

FullStrike

Is this thread another feeble attack on Laura / Legend? Shame shame shame. Laura has been attacked a few times too many on these boards so if she has a slight bit of anger towards everyone here I can understand that. If she vents a little of that anger from time to time ( did she really call anyone unwashed ? ) I think that's perfectly understandable.

Personally, I find Laura to be a very lovable character here. She exhibits great knowlege about marketing and numismatics in general. Without her, this place would be nothing but a bunch of hucksters, hypsters, shills, and Jefferson Nickel Dealers. I guess "unkempt, unwashed masses " would be a good descriptor.

AU58WALKERS

I thought she got banned for feeding the mice.

Coxe

Laura is a good person and a great asset. Her bold directness is her character and I'd hate to see that change.

LincolnCentMan

I just added the poll that I mentioned in my previous post.

-David

Russ

We are all unworthy scum.

Russ, NCNE

jabba

Wow, I guess we suck?

richardshipp

All of us unkempt, unwashed masses are equal. It's just that some of us unkempt, unwashed masses are more equal than others.

tradedollarnut

I think the top end is very underrepresented here. Those that come check it out tend not to stay very long. It takes a thick skin sometimes and most don't need the aggravation.

lathmach

This forum seems to be a pretty good cross section of collectors and dealers.

Ray

RotatedRainbows

<< <i>I think bhartman nailed it - the two things are not mutually exclusive.

I do agree that we have an excellent cross-section of people - from budget to deep-pocketed collectors, to dealers, to scholar/authors, all types of classic and modern collectors, real numismatists, and those in it just for the money.

And I think Laura's right in that in the big picture, we represent a tiny fraction of all those active in the hobby. >>







<< <i><<<Does this forum really consist of the unkempt, unwashed masses>>>

Hey I resemble that remark! I don't work, shave, wash my clothes or bathe. I'm greasy & nasty cause all I do is ride around from beerjoint to beerjoint on one of my 8 Harley Davidsons (which I also collect) and drink HUGE amounts of Budweiser. My coin collection consists of a circ 1921 Morg, 2 dateless Buffs, & a weird parking lot penny I found at the bridge I live under. >>



Hey you stole my line (or at least borrowed it) except I do not drink beer or ride Harley's. You are more likely to see me driving my Shelby or my Street Rod, occasionally I will take the goat out to stretch her legs.

JJM

I believe and proceed under the assumption that we have a very eclectic cross section of collectors here, which is why there is so much to learn.....If everyone here had a 5 million collection and spend 500k a yr , I would think it would be very boring....wouldnt be much circ find threads and toner posts etc,.....

CoinHusker

<< <i>
[Note—I have a lot of respect for the person who wrote the quote above. I am not bashing this person. I just don’t agree with the statement]. >>




3 guesses and the first 2 don't count on who it is.

LincolnCentMan

Ok, results are in for my very unscientific unreliable survey. Here's the scoop. 84 people participated in the poll. Six of them said that they bought a million bucks in coins this year. If you take everyone at their word, that makes an average of about $98,000 per member. If you throw out the million dollar people, the average comes to about $30,000 per member. So.... anyone know how to check out how many members there are in this forum?

-David

DaveG

I, too, think the membership here is an excellent cross-section of the hobby, buy only a very, very teeny tiny percentage of it.

In the coin club I belong to (which includes some very major hobby participants), I'm the only one of the 40 active members who posts here (although one person does post accross the street infrequently). From what I can tell, many of them don't even seem to surf the Internet that much.

Gemineye

<< <i>We are all unworthy scum.

Russ, NCNE >>


.................................WOO HOO..!!!..........

WinPitcher

Others prefer not to be known and operate in the shadows.

Thankfully Coxe is not among them.

Steve

53BKid

First off, scientifically representative surveys, whether they're Gallup polls, Eagleton polls, or Nielsen Ratings, typically either are conducted with either appx. 5-600 or 3500 people or households within a given population. You don't need to canvass the entire population of a group to be able to come up with statistically meaningful information on the population's opinions or buying habits. So while there may not be any more than a small fraction of collectors on these boards, that fact doesn't really influence whether or not this board is relevent, or meaningfully impacts the coin market.

Second, the opinions referenced at the top of the thread obviously are the expressions of an erudite, self-appointed know-it-all, who appears to have a patent disregard and very low level of respect for a significant portion of collectors. There are kids who began collecting state quarters recently who'll be the ones paying million dollar price tags for coins decades for now. While not writing six figure business, collectively, they put away several billion of these things over the past few years. Unfortunately, I suppose those collectors would fall into the worthless masses category as well.

Finally, as a barometer indicating collectors' sentiment and concerns, this forum appears to capture a good many of the major themes that I'd imagine many collectors who don't use these boards are concerned about. Sure super-high end collectors who can plow several million into coins annually are probably under-represented here, but they're welcome to join us--we'd value their input and would greet them as enthusiastically as the members here welcome newbies and YNs to this forum.

As far as being scum who suck, and not worthy of even collecting, no less holding any worthwhile opinions, I never really thought of myself or any other members who frequent these boards that way. Maybe, just maybe the individual who expressed this sentiment is the one with the problem.

tradedollarnut

<< <i>First off, scientifically representative surveys, whether they're Gallup polls, Eagleton polls, or Nielsen Ratings, typically either are conducted with either appx. 5-600 or 3500 people or households within a given population. You don't need to canvass the entire population of a group to be able to come up with statistically meaningful information on the population's opinions or buying habits. So while there may not be any more than a small fraction of collectors on these boards, that fact doesn't really influence whether or not this board is relavent, or meaningfully impacts the coin market.

Second, the opinions referenced at the top of the thread obviously are the expressions of an erudite self-appointed know-it-all, who appears to have a patent disregard and very low level of respect for a signficant portion of collectors. There are kids who began collecting state quarters recently who'll be the ones paying million dollar price tags for coins decades for now. While not writing six figure business, collectively, they put away several billion of these things over the past few years. Unfortunately, I suppose those collectors would fall into the worthless masses category as well.

Finally, as a barometer indicating collectors' sentiment and concerns, this forum appears to capture a good many of the major themes that I'd imagine many collectors who don't use these boards are concerned about. Sure super-high end collectors who can plow several million into coins annually are probably under-represented here, but they're welcome to join us--we'd value their input and would greet them as enthusiastically as the members here welcome newbies and YNs to this forum.

As far as being scum who suck, and not worthy of even collecting, no less holding any worthwhile opinions, I never really thought of myself or any other members who frequent these boards that way. Maybe, just maybe the individual who expressed this sentiment is the one with the problem. >>




This post represents everything that is wrong with this forum. The original quote basically stated that the forum members don't represent the big buyers at auction and that if every person on this forum boycotted the FUN sale, it wouldn't even feel it. Now this poster has turned that assertion somehow into Laura stating the members are scum and not worthy of being collectors.

Give her all the flack you want for stuff she deserves, but knock this putting words in her mouth crap off!

DRUNNER

The thought that many people here can spend comparatively large amounts of money on purely entertaining (and educational) pursuits such as collecting is mind-boggling. It's all relative . . . I look at the 7 families my English classes just Sub-For-Santad (wild verb) and then think that I spent about that same total amount this year on coins. Interesting. I spend time here to learn . . . I doubt that the amount of money spent makes much difference in the learning potential.

I know we have great diversity here in collection value and personalities. That's what keeps me coming back daily. High-end collections or low . . the thrill of the hunt and the passion still burns here in many . . .

It's all relative, but the fun's not.

Drunner

53BKid

<< <i>

This post represents everything that is wrong with this forum. The original quote basically stated that the forum members don't represent the big buyers at auction and that if every person on this forum boycotted the FUN sale, it wouldn't even feel it. Now this poster has turned that assertion somehow into Laura stating the members are scum and not worthy of being collectors.

Give her all the flack you want for stuff she deserves, but knock this putting words in her mouth crap off! >>



This thread if you read it begins:

<< <i>I always thought that this forum represented a very good cross section of numismatics. We have budget collectors here, as well as collectors who spend millions upon millions of dollars each year on coins. Although there are many more collectors out there who don’t participate here, I always assumed that the people here were more than just the unkempt, unwashed masses of numismatics. >>



There are people who post here who have express little in the way of respect for a broad component of the population posting here.

Russ

<< <i>but knock this putting words in her mouth crap off! >>



But, if you do make sure they're misspelled.

Russ, NCNE

RegistryCoin

You probably meant something like, "knock off putting words in her mouth... crap-head."

53BKid

I really have no interest in putting anything in...

oh, never mind.

orie

Laura, would you agree that fewer then 5% of the collectors hold 90% of the market value? If this is close to being true my guess would be we have a few on the boards in the top five percent.

53BKid

<< <i>You probably meant something like, "knock off putting words in her mouth... crap-head." >>

tradedollarnut

<< <i>I really have no interest in putting anything in...

oh, never mind. >>



Grow up.

You grossly misrepresented what she said in your post. It was either on purpose or in error. Now is the time to apologize for either.

53BKid

<< <i> If this is close to being true my guess would be we have a few on the boards in the top five percent. >>



I'd guess there have to be some within that bunch who participate here...but my point is that many more of those frequenting these boards may eventually become part of that top 5%, so why not encourage and help cultivate their development in a positive, supportive manner.

53BKid

<< <i>

Grow up.

You grossly misrepresented what she said in your post. It was either on purpose or in error. Now is the time to apologize for either. >>



Or, you're going to spank me?

tradedollarnut

<< <i>

<< <i>

Grow up.

You grossly misrepresented what she said in your post. It was either on purpose or in error. Now is the time to apologize for either. >>



Or, your going to spank me? >>



It's 'you're' not 'your' and there's no need for a comma in that sentence.

53BKid

<< <i>

You do have the huge mix here of different types of collectors, however this is just a TINY fraction of all those who exist and I do not think it can be viewed as true indicator of the overall market. Yet what gets said here, may simply be a view of a smaller segment from here alone. >>




As far as I can tell, there's validity in that point--but you do have a segment of people here who are obviously very interested in collecting, right? Many who post here seem to have both meaningful experience within the hobby/industry, and a fairly good grasp on issues impacting the overall market, IMO.

Just because the participation here is 'TINY' doesn't mean its irrelevant.

(Oh excuse me, as the word is conjuctive, there's an apostrophe that I should have placed in between the 'it' and the 's', forgive me.)

Coinosaurus

I read somewhere that the top 1% of the U.S. population holds 40% of the wealth. I bet the numbers for collectors aren't that much different.

Bear

The vast majority of collectors and dealers do not

collect or deal in the great million dollar rarities. Also, it is true

that this Forum does not represent a statistically accurate

opinion of all collectors. However, what the Forum may be

indicating, is where the low and midrange coin market

may be heading. If in fact, the underpinings of the market are

moving towards weakness, then the stability of the high range rarity market

may be subject to other economic conditions, having a negative

impact. Sometimes, anticipating what lies over the moutain range is as accurate

as reading the bones or entrailes of an animal sacrifice.

cladking

<< <i>

As far as I can tell, there's validity in that point--but you do have a segment of people here who are obviously very interested in collecting, right? Many who post here seem to have both meaningful experience within the hobby/industry, and a fairly good grasp on issues impacting the overall market, IMO.

Just because the participation here is 'TINY' doesn't mean its irrelevant.

(Oh excuse me, as the word is conjuctive, there's an apostrophe that I should have placed in between the 'it' and the 's', forgive me.) >>



Good point but you don't really need either of the commas in the 2nd sentence either.

I agree that even though the participation here is highly skewed it still
is meaningful in representing the market. Just because data don't
make a good sample doesn't mean there aren't a large number of data
points. There are about 15,000 users (coin people) here with probably
about 13,000 distinct individuals with 5,000 of them actively participating
or lurking.

We are not an accurate reflection of the overall market but almost every
point of view is represented and we are, in aggregate, a significant part
of the market even if not a large part.

Nic

I've met, and dined multiple times, with some great folks here. Maybe not metro-males/females, though clean enough to pass bread.
The high end/$ and low end/$ of the market is mostly silent here.

K

LincolnCentMan

First off, scientifically representative surveys, whether they're Gallup polls, Eagleton polls, or Nielsen Ratings, typically either are conducted with either appx. 5-600 or 3500 people or households within a given population. You don't need to canvass the entire population of a group to be able to come up with statistically meaningful information on the population's opinions or buying habits. So while there may not be any more than a small fraction of collectors on these boards, that fact doesn't really influence whether or not this board is relevent, or meaningfully impacts the coin market.


Good point but you don't really need either of the commas in the 2nd sentence either.

I agree that even though the participation here is highly skewed it still
is meaningful in representing the market. Just because data don't
make a good sample doesn't mean there aren't a large number of data
points. There are about 15,000 users (coin people) here with probably
about 13,000 distinct individuals with 5,000 of them actively participating
or lurking.


Ok, looking at an estimated 13,000 users, based on the survey, we could extrapolate that the forum members as a collective this year possessed $390,000,000 to $1.274,000,000 buying power. This assumes that the average amount spent per member is between $30,000 and $98,000.


I would add that I am not saying that all of those funds would be focused on one major sale. It's split amoung all mannors of sources for coins. All I'm trying to point out is that there is significant buying power amoung the forum members.

David