The WORST hitters of the past 40+ years...ATTEN DUSTY BAKER!!

Skinpinch

Name
Larry Bowa -287.2
Ozzie Guillen -286.5
Alfredo Griffin -277.7
Tim Foli -259.0
Ed Brinkman -254.9
Hal Lanier -245.9
Royce Clayton -230.2
Aur. Rodriguez -230.0
Doug Flynn -224.1
Rey Sanchez -222.7
Neifi Perez -222.4
Mark Belanger -213.9
Don Kessinger -208.8
Don Sutton -203.7
Gary Disarcina -195.0
Bobby Wine -187.5
Phil Niekro -186.7
Bob Boone -184.4
Greg Maddux -183.0
Mike Bordick -180.4

I've said it before, and i will say it again...What the heck did Neifi Perez do to make Dusty Baker so eager to bat him second!!!!! This is exactly why you don't just take the 'word' or judgement of a player, on evaluating! Baker is dumb as rocks in this area.

I should note that the list is the worst hitting EVERYDAY players that played a decent sized career. There are plenty of guys who were much worse, but obviously played sparingly.

Actually, Baker isn't the only moron. Neifi Perez has over 2,000 at bats in the One or Two hole!!

Bowa has 5,000 such at bats.
Guillen 1,200
Griffin 2,700
Foli 3,700
Brinkman 1,300
Sanchez 1,600
Belanger 1,600...shame on you Earl Weaver. You were smarter than that. Six at bats batting second in '79 series? Pops says thanks.

I'm done looking up the rest, sickening!


Maybe the Phillies would have won a couple of more World Series, when they had all those wonderful players, if they had understood that simply making contact should NOT be a requisite to batting at the top, but rather GETTING ON BASE is the most important thing. The stubborness, or misinformation of a manager who just simply trot garbage hitters with poor on-base skill to the top of the order is one of the most puzzling things on earth!
What the heck makes sense of putting your worst hitter in the lineup where HE WILL BAT MORE OFTEN THEN EVERYBODY ELSE!!! Yeah, I want my worst hitter batting the most, dumbarses!

This is the kind of old fashioned misconceptions I refer to. Old philosophies die hard. Making contact was important in 1880, but that changed greatly over time.

I understand it could be partly the GM's fault, and in certain seasons a guy 'may' have been ok, but the amount of times these guys batted in such key spots is ridiculous. I also understand in certain situations you have no choice, but NOT THAT MANY TIMES.

I still see this all the time, a guy is injured and they put the crummiest guy in the two hole..the Baker Rule. This thining is still prevelant. Yuck.

reiny81

Skinpinch,
I have two things. First what is the stat that you are using to rate these guys with? You neglected to mention that part. Second, three of the guys on your list were/are pitchers. First of all, pitchers only play every fifth day, and American League ptichers do not hit at all. Pitchers are very rarely good or even decent hitters. Pitchers are not paid to pitch, not hit. They should not even be in this discussion.
Reiny81

WinPitcher

Skip you should send out resumes to all 30 clubs and try to become the manager.

Steve

stown

You mean to tell me that Mario Mendoza is better than all of them?

Skinpinch

No Mendoza isn't...remember, these are guys who played longer, hence the more negative swing in the situational batter runs.

Reiny, I know that about the pitchers...those guys just happen to be there.

Steve, I didn't take that route in baseball. Some of my friends went the coaching route, starting out in high school coaching. I chose a different path, and I simply coach young people now. Aside from that, managing a team entails a lot of factors. This stuff is the easy part as it is a simple correction. Though baseball managing is the easiest of the major sports.


Stown, in only 1,300+ at bats Mendoza was already down to -109! He was one of the guys I was saying was too bad to play long enough to get those numbers below average.


.......AND EVEN MARIO MENDOZA BATTED 48 TIMES IN THE TOP TWO SLOTS!!
He even batted 3rd three times, and fourth three teams See what I mean?

stevek

<<< Maybe the Phillies would have won a couple of more World Series, when they had all those wonderful players, if they had understood that simply making contact should NOT be a requisite to batting at the top, but rather GETTING ON BASE is the most important thing. >>>

No way I'm gonna come close to saying that Danny Ozark was a good manager, but it's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback and look at stats years later or after the season, and comment on what "should" have been done. Nobody knows at the time whether or not hitting trends like that will continue. Players can start hitting better or worse. A manager has to place players in the lineup according to past performance AND potential. I don't remember anybody better than Bowa who was playing for the Phillies at that time who would have done a better job on an everyday basis. And Bowa later in his career would often bat 7th or 8th in the lineup anyway, so really I have no idea what you're talking about as far as those Phillies teams were concerned and this subject, which is an interesting subject.


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Skinpinch

steve, I mentioned those things you said, and those are valid reasons in some cases, but in Bowa's case he had over 5,000 at bats in the key lineup spots, and that is an astronomical figure and certainly enough to take future potential vs. past hitting into account. As I said, there are probably a couple of years where some of these players were the best option, but not with that many at bats and that often. How Mario Mendoza could even get a single at bat as a lead off man is beyond comprehension!


I just checked another famous scrub...Mick Kelleher! In slightly over 1,000 career at bats he managed to get his total to -82, which is almost as bad as Mendoza. These are legendary scrub hitters, and only lack of playing time keeps their totals below -500.

Even Kelleher had 183 of his 1,000 odd at bats in the one or two hole. He should have zero.

PROMETHIUS88

With that said, who are the players that rank at the top in the last 40 years batting in the one or two slot?

aro13

While your point about Bowa makes sense in today's context in the 1970's I do not recall there being much mention of OBP and the importance of it relative to setting up a line-up.

In general in that era the managers led off players with speed that were good base stealers. The second hitter was a good contact hitter, who would take a lot of pitches and hit to the opposite field. Now, that strategy looks bad but in those days most teams did not know any better. Check out the lead-off hitter for th 1961 Yankees. Bobby Richardson. His OBP for the year was .295 and he had a .316 slugging percentage. I do not recall people saying Ralph Houk was an idiot for batting him lead-off. If that happened today Houk would probably be fired in mid-season.

Skinpinch

Aro, it does go on today, and that is why I put attention Dusty Baker...for his infatuation with Neifi Perez. It should not have been going on in the 70's though either, though I understand 'why' it wen't on. It is the old school thinking, and that dies very hard.

kadokakid

Skin:

Interesting stats.

I think you need to look at the entire lineup and roster of the teams in question. I'm a long time Oriole fan and loved those O's teams of the late 60's early 70's.

Belanger was a definate no hit, great fielding shortstop who usually batted 8th. But you have to look at what else was on the roster to determine why he batted 2nd in certain situations. Earl Weaver doesn't have to apologize for many of decisions he made in my opinion.

Stats can be used to justify about any opinion, but thanks for the interesting data.


Peace


Doug

Skinpinch

Doug, I will freely state that this is not at all close to being a scientific study on this subject. I didn't look at any alternatives like you are saying, and I did put that disclaimer in my initial post about that, and about the GM having a hand in it. One can make a case for some of those instances being the best choice or what have you, but it is the overall thinking I am referring to, and like I mentioned it is mainly directed at Dusty Baker and his recent handling of Neifi Perez.

Though the fact that Mario Mendoza and Mick Kelleher even got more than one at bat in such a prime batting position, has to be one of the biggest head scratchers in MLB history.