eBay and Altered Unopened Material - Amazing Stat

wheat34

OK - I went a little overboard when I found out PSA was going to grade Packs. For about a month, I looked around and purchased raw unopened material off of eBay. I did the "prudent" thing and made sure that the seller had good feedback and history. Of all the purchases made, there were 10 auctions that included packs for $15 or more. After finally getting the results from my first PSA pack submission, 7 out of the 10 or 70% of those auctions included packs that were Altered.

I am currently in the process of contacting the following eBay sellers:

iiaok - 2 separate auctions each for a 1975 Topps Baseball Wax Packs (8/14/06) - submitted one and came back Altered - emailed on 12/7 regarding - No response yet

angelsshoppingaddiction - 1976 Topps Football Wax Pack (8/16/06) - submitted and came back Altered - no longer on eBay (410 feedback rating) - email disconnected

joez4u - 1977 Topps Baseball Wax Pack (8/17/06) - submitted and came back Altered - emailed on 12/7 - replied giving me the name of the person he was selling for - forwarded to that person as well as sending a follow-up that regardless of origin, this seller is responsible for any items that they sell

figurebuyer - 3 separate auctions each for a 1984 Topps Football Cello Pack with Walter Payton on top - all 3 submitted and all 3 came back altered - emailed on 12/7 - seller replied that they were a part of a 60 pack purchase he made 2 years ago and offered a 25% refund - although he was professional, I replied back that regardless of origin, this seller is responsible for any items that they sell.

There is one more auction of the 10 that I have not yet submitted to PSA which will get done in the next submission. So, at this point, it is 70%, potentially 80% of these auctions that are altered. I am astonished as, again, I didn't buy from "just anyone" and "did my homework" and still came out with this result. THAT is why PSA needed to come into the Pack Authenticating / Grading arena.

Harry

Bosox1976

Does altered mean resealed - or actually altered (coloring, rips addressed, etc.)? Bummer.

DeutscherGeist

Thank you for sharing this. I really wanted to know this stat. Since PSA made card doctors less of a worry when purchasing a slabbed card as opposed to a raw card, I am sure a career change was made to become pack surgeons.

So, your packs were altered.....will you be opening the packs once you get a settlement or hit a brick wall with one of the sellers? I mean, the guy that is no longer registered and disconnected his email is a dead end case. You might as well open the pack and see if the commons in there are at least mint even though the star cards are most likely gone.

I am surprised that some of the seller's responded that they got the packs elsewhere. Well, that is not an excuse at all. Of course he got the packs elsewhere unless he is Topps Chewing Gum company. He should check his purchases before offering them up for sale.

I purchased a wax box from a seller once and saw the card packs had prices on them. The price tags were the sticker type as seen in the grocery store. You most likely will damage the pack getting those things off. I emailed the seller and he stated that he got it from another seller, but accepts responsibility since he should have checked his product and added the info to the description. He gave me 80% of the money back. That was more than he should have. After all, the packs were not tampered with, they were just priced. This was a 1981 Superman box--no stand out cards in this set that would be valuable anyway.

Its hard to buy 1970s packs on ebay. Those things are worthwhile to search. THere must be some good pack surgeons out there. Your experience tells me that the pack surgeons will soon lose their jobs as more people will only buy graded packs.

f2tornado

I would think most of us already knew there was a lot of bogus wax on eBay. That 70-80% figure is only slightly suprising. My brother purchased a 1987 Donruss box and didn't even get one star card. Hard to believe that bax came from the factory that way. I won't touch wax with a 10-foot pole. Might only be a matter of time if not already where the really good resealers get those packs in slabs.

stevek

Well actually that is good news that PSA is "legitimately" slabbing unopened packs whereby in my opinion GAI slabbed packs are as close to a fraud as can be gotten.

benderbroeth

will they soon be gading unopend boxes also??? i am only asking this because i was wondering if there are any unopend boxe of pre 78 cards?

wheat34

Bosox - I am assuming that the "Not Holdered, Altered" from PSA indicates resealed. I believe that any recoloring or restoration of a pack would have a different indicator.

DeutscherGeist - You are right. At the end of this process, if I am still holding some of these packs, they are getting opened. There would be no logic at that point to keep them "resealed". I'll post the results when it comes to that. PSA coming in is going to clean up things greatly. It is true that a few packs may slip through the process but it would be a lot less then 70%!

This statistic amazes me. It also reinforces the "love" that Steve Hart at BBCexchange gets. I have dealt with him with outstanding results. No problems with the 1975 and 1977 Baseball cellos that I purchased from him!

Harry

Slabbed

If pack grading is like card grading then if the grade does not fit you must resubmit. It is only a persons opinion. And believe me it is not a perfect science.

pandrews

open them up and see what the cards look like inside..

DeutscherGeist

Steve Hart may be a good seller, but he also gets his material from elsewhere. Does this mean he is very knowledgeable about what to look out for or does he simply sell the stuff and if a customer complains, simply offers a refund no questions ask. While it is very kind to give a refund like that, many customers are not experts in spotting resealed unopened material and give the benefit of the doubt. Some buy the stuff and never ever open it, so the truth is never known until some future owner opens it, but by that time, Steve Hart and others are not around.



1987 Donruss box searched? That must have been done during the time it was a big deal like in the late eighties. No one would mess with that box now I would think.

I would love to own a factory sealed Upper Deck 1989 set, but I can not purchase one because I know how searched those sets were in the early 90s when that thing was hot stuff and the Griffeys were missing even though the seal looked intact. I guess this is where a sealed case of the stuff might be the secure way to go.

grote15

Steve Hart has stated some time back that in his estimation more than half of all "raw" packs on ebay are resealed or otherwise tampered with, so I'm not surprised. "Angelsshoppingaddiction" had many negative feedbacks from buyers stating that his packs were crap so I'm wondering why you'd consider him a seller worthy of purchasing from in the first place. I don't think you'll have much success getting a refund from these sellers at this late date. "Raw" packs are much lower in price than graded packs for a good reason, so it's buyer beware for sure.

wheat34

Grote15 - Yup - I missed the boat on that one (angelsshoppingaddiction). I somehow overlooked the one feedback that said it was resealed. The most recent one was after I had purchased my packs so at that point, I wasn't checking his feedback. But, outside of that, they had really good feedback. It wasn't like he had feedback of 3, it was 400+ with (at the time) 98% rating.

Regarding Steve, it is true that all of his stuff comes from other sources. It reinforces the need to buy unopened material from people you trust that examine thier product before reselling it to the public. I trust Steve because of his expertise. That same would go for Mark Murphy.

Do I have a huge expectation of getting refunds? No. I do, however, feel that it is important not to simply "cut my losses". I have integrety and would "do the right thing". It blows me away that some people have such deplorable ethics. I am curious where my efforts will lead me.

Harry

DeutscherGeist

Harry,

By all means you should be telling the sellers what happened. Contrary to what others think, it is not late to bring this issue up with the sellers. You are not a professional grader, so you can't be expected to immediately tell if something has been tampered on a product. You trusted these sellers and they have broken that trust (perhaps not intentionally). It is important to see if the sellers will make good on their items. It is important to give them that chance. They may not even be experts in telling the differnce, so they should know what crap they are buying themselves.

I always voice or write my displeasure with sellers. If for nothing else, you want to show them that you are not a fool. Even if you get nothing in return, you can close the issue knowing you tried everything and then you can call it a cheap lesson (assuming you didn't mortgage the house or sold your wedding ring....). Thanks for letting us know who these sellers. I won't buy ANYTHING from them.

By the way, a feedback below 99.5% is usually trouble--they will hassle you with returns or refunds. If someone has 99.9% with thousands of feedback, I go for it. If I know the seller well, the feedback rating could be lower since I understand the tough luck with strange customers.

grote15

Buying unopened material is a crapshoot on ebay, no two ways about it. Most resealed packs are fairly evident to spot, but if you're not sure, it's always best to either buy from a reputable source or buy graded material. You may pay a few more bucks in the end, but at least you're getting quality product. Steve Hart is the best there is for purchasing quality unopened product.

Angelsshopping addiction had a slew of negatives for resealed packs prior to your August purchase from him and as Deutschergeist states, a FB of anything less than your body temp is a warning sign, as many buyers are either unaware the packs are resealed or fear retaliatory negatives.

packCollector

angelsshoppingaddiction is a known resealer , if I recall it is boyer but it could be one of the others that float around under variaous id's, was the seller boyer or have an email , something @1952topps.com , those are all boyer alias' that use those emails

mmoin

I have no idea why anyone would buy ungraded "unopened material" from anyone without an absolutely sterling reputation. More likely than not, the most valuable thing you get out of this stuff is the wrapper/box itself. Even with the advent of pack grading, it's still very hard to justify when making sure that packs are truly unopened seems to be such an inexact science.

grote15

Even with the advent of pack grading, it's still very hard to justify when making sure that packs are truly unopened seems to be such an inexact science.

Very true. After all, GAI has graded their fair share of bogus "grocery" cellos from 1970-1972.

storm888

"This statistic amazes me. It also reinforces the "love" that Steve Hart at BBCexchange gets.
I have dealt with him with outstanding results. No problems with the 1975 and 1977 Baseball
cellos that I purchased from him! "

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Experimenting is fun, and the stats are interesting.

Angel was the topic of discussion here, not too long ago.
A known resealer.

I would NEVER buy packs from anybody I did not know
on EBAY. In fact, I am shocked when strangers buy packs
from me on EBAY.

If you used a credit card on any of your buys, it is not too
late to request a chargeback through the CC company.

99 and big-change % is about as low as I would go when
deciding if feedback is acceptable. EBAY is simply not a
trustworthy place.

storm

Buccaneer

<< <i>I have no idea why anyone would buy ungraded "unopened material" from anyone without an absolutely sterling reputation. More likely than not, the most valuable thing you get out of this stuff is the wrapper/box itself. Even with the advent of pack grading, it's still very hard to justify when making sure that packs are truly unopened seems to be such an inexact science. >>



I would take it one step further in that you really cannot tell who has a "sterling reputation". Wheat34 claimed that he looked for good feedback and reputation (anglesshopping notwithstanding) - so what? That doesn't mean much at all - unless you know the seller personally and/or the packs came from sealed cases. It's amazing to me that you would even get 3 out of 10 right.

storm888

"It's amazing to me that you would even get 3 out of 10 right. "

Carew29

I have written in past threads that i have an upoened box of 1973 OPC and 1975 OPC Baseball. I personally bought both of my boxes from a friend of mine that owned a pawn and baseball card shop back in 1985. He personally bought several boxes of these from his friend that lived in Canada ( who owned a card shop) at the time. It's kind of like buying a used car. I am the third owner. Looks like i am going to have to go the route of sending one pack in from each box. I have done nothing to the packs except sit on them for 20+ years. They are as cherry as they get. If either come back altered, i will not be sending any other packs in to anyone for grading. I know the history of my two boxes and no grader is going to tell me otherwise.

metalmike

I don't agree I bought a 1972 OPC pack graded/authenticated 8.5 from GAI and pulled a sweet Johnny Bench card

wheat34

Update:

Still no word from:

iiaok (emailed 12/7)

Unable to contact:

angelsshoppingaddiction (nolonger on ebay - invalid email address) - Looks like I'm going to open up the 1976 Football pack when I receive it back from PSA.

Waiting for response from:

figurebuyer - Based on last email sent on 12/10

joez4u - replied back to me saying that the person isn't interested in providing a refund. He sent me a follow-up : "We have 5 packs left I will send them to GAI and prove these pack are fine By the way PSA don't grade packs". I replied back to him with the appropriate links to PSA information, let him know that PSA has a better reputation than GAI and that I would be happy to exchange the pack that I originally recieved with one that is authenticated by PSA.

storm888

I think we saw some of the cards here from the packs angel sold.

They had rubber-band marks on them !

////////////////////////////////////

""We have 5 packs left I will send them to GAI and prove these pack are fine By the way PSA don't grade packs".

////////////////////////////////

That comment may mean that he is a dunce, and not a crook.

DeutscherGeist

Are you out a whole lot of money Harry?

I would call your credit card company to see if they can help. Do everything you can before chalking this up as a cheap lesson. I mean you have proof from psa that these packs were altered, so that is why this would be an excellent slam dunk case with the credit card company. My credit card let me have recourse even with three months. Trying does not hurt. Here is a tip: Be friendly on the phone and be concise about explaining your case, the person on the phone has the authority to credit you $25 without any further due process and without having to transfer you to the dispute department. I have gotten credit for $18 in an instant because I explained my case over the phone and the guy just gave me a credit since it was a low enough amount that he could do it (the dispute department was having a malfunction and the customer service rep was one of the friendly understanding types that just solved my case on the spot so as to save me the trouble of calling back and filing a formal dispute). You are dealing with humans and some humans are very compassionate and will back you up. Getting burned is not a good feeling. Also, if you don't get anywhere with the first customer rep, call back again and you will get someone else on the phone. I keep calling back until I get someone that is the compassionate type.

This is just something I want to share with you and everyone else. I love credit cards!!!!!

grote15

Also, I'd recommend only dealing with reputable dealers like bbce or buying graded packs up front. Many of the raw packs on ebay are resealed or otherwise tampered with, and though the price may seem appealing, you get what you pay for.

wheat34

The thing that kills me with this is that 1/3 of my cost in the process is PSA's Pack Grading Fee. So the "investment" I made in the faulty raw packs was just over $200 with an additional $100 for grading fees. So, although my excitement got ahead of my clear thinking with buying the raw packs in the first place, it didn't get out of hand with the dollar amount. I have in the past used Steve extensively and continue to do so. The amount I have spent with Steve is in the $5,000+ range so the "experiment" on eBay was not over the top.

At the end of the process, I will pursue things through PayPal / credit card as a last resort. My "hope" is that these sellers will do the "right" thing and back their reputation by providing a refund. This hobby needs more intergity and I am hoping that my little effort here will do a little to help.

Harry

spazzy

Has anyone crossed a gai unopened pack to a PSA graded pack? I think that would be interesting if any altered or resealed packs come up. I trust Steve from BBCE . I know he gives a yes or no opinion only for Psa.My question to Steve would be is "Does he think any GAI ungraded packs he sells on his web site are suspect or does everything he have listed get his approval for being unopened?"" Since Steve sells lots of graded packs, I would like to know how many have bit him in the butt after selling to a collector because they were suspect.

jmoran19

I crossed a 1973 series 1 wax pack. It was formerly GAI 6.5 and received a 7 from PSA.

P. S. It was submitted raw. John.

Skinpinch

3 out of 10? To me, I see this as PSA throwing some darts.

If you bought packs from a guy, I doubt he reseals most of his pack and then keeps a couple sealed. Most likely, he is resealing all of them or none of them. Would anybody in their right mind right now buy those three 'unsearched' graded packs that you got from that submission? I wouldn't.

grote15

3 out of 10? To me, I see this as PSA throwing some darts.

If you bought packs from a guy, I doubt he reseals most of his pack and then keeps a couple sealed. Most likely, he is resealing all of them or none of them. Would anybody in their right mind right now buy those three 'unsearched' graded packs that you got from that submission? I wouldn't

I believe he bought these packs from different sellers on ebay.

The problem with most resealed packs is that many sellers (and collectors) do not realize the pack they have or are selling is resealed in the first place. I don't believe these sellers are being deceitful; they just don't know any better. Of course, there are also those sellers out there who are deliberately searching and resealing packs, and those are the guys that are the root cause of problems like these, as they are selling bogus packs to unsuspecting buyers who eventually sell those same packs on ebay believing they are authentic.

wheat34

Correct. They were different sellers. I didn't purchase 10 packs from one dealer and 7 came out bad and 3 were fine. That wouldn't give me warm fuzzies about PSA's authenticating business. I have no reason to believe that the packs that came back authentic with a grade are anything but genuine.

Harry

wheat34

Update:

Filed CreditCard dispute for:

iiaok
angelsshoppingaddiction

Final word from:

joez4u - "The seller refuses any refund.first you claim you have other sellers with altered packs he can not be sure it was one of his packs.second if you send pack to PSA you felt pack was gradeworthy.third our packs came out of a factory fresh box all pack were inspected all packs have the rolled seal in the middle.Fourth we sold every pack you were the only one who claims you had a problem.With all this it is obivious your pack came from another source Best I can do is give you my commision of sale equals 30%"

Since I paid him with a check for $19, it is not worth it at this point to pursue anything or go after his $5 commission.

figurebuyer - Fantastic communications from him. He offered a 50% refund and since the packs were cello's with stars on top, I was able to keep those and will open them and sell the singles to try to make up the difference. Of all the people I dealt with, he was the only one that handled things professionally. I believe him that he did not knowingly sell resealed packs. If anyone placed this buy on their "don't bid on their items" list, I would confidently remove them from this list. I would avoid unopened packs in general on ebay (with the exception of authenticated packs, sealed boxes, cases, or anything from BBCexchange or BBCkid) but would be comfortible buying other items from this seller.

jradke4

I would assume most of his stuff is bought from others. If I recall he is only between 35-40 years old.

jskirwin

I don't collect unopened raw, but it would seem to me that PSA should make known how it determines whether a pack was opened.

RonBurgundy

"THAT is why PSA needed to come into the Pack Authenticating / Grading arena."

Why? To clean up the number of scoundrels out there? You could have 50 legitimate companies doing this and unless one of them has the initials F.B.I., the bad guys out there are not going to change.

This market has been flooded so much by tainted material that it's an open question whether a graded pack carries the weight that it should. Not only do I not trust virtually anyone selling raw unopened - and I'm starting to doubt some of the stuff I have - I don't really trust PSA or Global to get it right - and by the way anyone who would imply that Global is intentionally grading altered packs needs to have their head examined. I suspect far more errors are going to be made in this arena than in other authentication areas. We should all heed the words from the 60 Minutes piece a few years ago on autographs, as it applies to unopened material: don't pay much for it because it's probably not real. In the case of wax packs or boxes, don't spend too much on it because it's probably been searched.



Ron

stevek

<<< anyone who would imply that Global is intentionally grading altered packs needs to have their head examined. >>>

Already had it examined one time...doctor told me there wasn't much up there. LOL

But you need to review some of the past threads here on this subject. The actual GAI authenticator had posted here awhile back and stated that he also authenticated a number of packs that he owned. If you think that isn't a conflict of interest, and if you think that a "reputable" company would ever hire someone such as this, then I would suggest an examination for yourself.

I don't trust GAI as far as I can throw them. PSA isn't perfect as no company is, but lumping PSA and GAI together like you did isn't valid.


-

diamondman

I think everyone should take a class in pack grading and after that if it's to hot in the kitchen get out ! There is always going to be mistakes in any business! I just wish someone in 1981 would have bashed microsoft as bad as people bash this hobby, then maybe I could have got microsoft PRF real cheap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Anybody got any 89 UD unopened for 25.00 a box (u know people could search them). AND if the world didn't suck we would all fall off!!!

grote15

Pack grading is far from perfect and there are bound to be altered packs that get graded and authentic ones that get rejected for any number of reasons. Shoot, mistakes are made with single cards which are usually much easier to decide on (trimmed or not, etc,) so it stands to reason that mistakes are going to be made with packs, too. I can understand the seller's POV in this particular scenario. After all, wheat had purchased several packs from several different sellers months ago, then sent them in to PSA, so how can the seller be sure that it's even his pack that's in question, and not a pack from one of the other sellers. Many unopened sellers don't even offer a return privilege, but the ones that do will usually specify a set period of time during which the pack can be returned for a refund. If the buyer has any doubts about the authenticity of a pack, he should be contacting the seller upon receipt of the pack, not months afterward, IMO. If you're not sure what to look for in a resealed pack, your best bet is to buy packs that are already authenticated, so the guesswork is taken out of the equation (for the most part). There's a good reason why "raw" packs sell for much less on ebay.

jamesryanbell

<< <i>Anybody got any 89 UD unopened for 25.00 a box (u know people could search them). >>



How could people search foil packs?

basestealer

<< <i>

<< <i>Anybody got any 89 UD unopened for 25.00 a box (u know people could search them). >>



How could people search foil packs? >>


I have seen some pretty blatant foil pack jobs before, but those are easy to detect (however, maybe not to easy to get your money back once you realize they've been tampered with). I think most dishonest people toying with modern packs these days don't open and reseal them; rather they weigh them or do the "feel test" for the inserts, cherrypick the loaded packs and resell the rest on eBay or local card shows. Most card shops won't let you manhandle the packs and bring your postal scale in, but if you buy boxes on ebay and do this in the liesure of your own home, one can do quite a bit of damage. And I don't imagine most of these modern packs find their way into PSA or GAI holders anyway, but they would pass the test, as they aren't opened.

cardbender

<< <i>

<< <i>Anybody got any 89 UD unopened for 25.00 a box (u know people could search them). >>



How could people search foil packs? >>



There was a pattern to the card distribution in UD foil packs. If you opened one box you could figure it out and find the stack with the Griffey RC. Then you could selectively search other packs/boxes using the same method.

Sad but true.

As others have posted I think many sellers just don't know
how to determine funny wax packs. They buy a collection and just sell it off without pulling out the bad material because they may not know what constitutes searched products.

These sellers are only guilty about being somewhat greedy and not standing behind the bad products they may be flipping in their sales.

Greed can be bad.

jamesryanbell

I never knew that. There's a pattern to the Upper Deck '89s??

I have ten opened first series boxes.

What's the pattern?

............hahaha.

(I may open these boxes after all)

-- Ryan

RipublicaninMass

<< <i>I never knew that. There's a pattern to the Upper Deck '89s??

I have ten opened first series boxes.

What's the pattern?

............hahaha.

(I may open these boxes after all)

-- Ryan >>



Hopefully from a case you bought, I opened 3 first series boxes without a griffey! This was a few years ago before I knew ther was a pattern.. You should have seen the "dumb"founded look on my face when I pulled not even a single griffey!

fergie23

I sent in 15 1980 Topps Basketball packs from a box I bought from DACW about 3 years ago. The box had managed to survive my natural instinct to rip so after buying a PSA graded pack and seeing the $10 monthly special at PSA I looked at my box and sent in the nicest packs (in my estimation). The results were atrocious from a grading standpoint (I obviously have no idea what they are looking for when grading packs).

I would be interested to know what Not Holdered, Altered actually means. I think they also have a Not Holdered, Resealed designation. I opened the rest of the packs after sending these to PSA and pulled two Bird/Magic rookies so I seriously doubt these packs were searched/resealed. Sadly one of the packs had a Bird/Magic on the back and it was in the Not Holdered, Altered camp. I will probably just send it to GAI to be graded and see what they say.


1 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A 7
2 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A 7
3 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A 8
4 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A Not Holdered, Altered
5 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A 6
6 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A 7
7 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A Not Holdered, Altered
8 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A 8
9 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A 8
10 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A 8
11 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A Not Holdered, Altered
12 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A 7
13 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A 7
14 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A 8
15 1980 TOPPS BASKETBALL WAX PACK N/A 7

grote15

I'd imagine that the not holdred-altered designation means the pack's been recolored or otherwise dressed up to make it appear in better condition than it actually is, if it doesn't mean resealed, that is..

Carew29

If i sold a pack that i thought was legit and somebody contacts me almost a year later for a refund, i'd tell you to go pound sand. By the way, would you like to buy all of my "re-colored" cards from Waverly82?? I have plenty.

jamesryanbell

<< <i>

Hopefully from a case you bought, I opened 3 first series boxes without a griffey! This was a few years ago before I knew ther was a pattern.. You should have seen the "dumb"founded look on my face when I pulled not even a single griffey! >>



I bought them from a store like Wal-mart or something. I don't remember. I opened one of them about 5 years ago and got six (6) Griffeys out of one box. The boxes when I bought them had packs falling out all over the floor, so I just scooped up a full boxes' worth of packs and bought 'em. I have 10 like that right now.

Again though, what's the pattern? Tell me some details please!

-- Ryan