The self sustaining hobby...
digicat
Posts: 8,551 ✭✭
Has anyone here (who's not a full time card dealer) managed to get you collection to the point where it kind of pays for itself, through the "buy raw, sell graded" route or through buying sets and selling off everything, etc)?
It seems to me like this would be possible w/o turning the hobby into a job.
It seems to me like this would be possible w/o turning the hobby into a job.
0
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I've also thought about this --- has anyone done it:
Set up an LLC or dba/sole prop as a "dealer" --- but don't really deal much ... use the tax advantage (e..g. buy everything tax free like dealers do) to buy stuff you like --- sell some of it via ebay or stores -- but mostly your "business" is your own collection.
You would also be able to write-off your grading fees, ebay costs, etc.
Is that way too big of hassle for the realized savings in taxes?
-Tom
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Actually, I usually try this during the summer months when I am off of work. I will start with a cushion of $300-500 in paypal. I then sell off my extras or my lower grades to add to the pot, as I buy up. This tends to work out. Basically I upgraded about 50-75 cards this summer for a little 500 bucks.
View Vintage Football Cards For Sale
I also know my niche market (NFL HOF RCs) well, and sometimes purchase graded cards to re-sell them at a small profit.
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>Has anyone here (who's not a full time card dealer) managed to get you collection to the point where it kind of pays for itself, through the "buy raw, sell graded" route or through buying sets and selling off everything, etc)?
It seems to me like this would be possible w/o turning the hobby into a job. >>
Definitely. I pay for all the cards I want and have been fortunate enough to be able to set a substantial amount aside.
Am I crazy?
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Peace
Doug
45% complete.
<< <i>I think that you would need the right mix of hobby experience, knowledge, and luck to make it work. And I think that it would be very difficult to do it successfully without investing a certain amount of time to the point where it would almost be a job. >>
Exactly. You really need to have good raw finds at card shows and on ebay. And that takes a lot of work because 1.) People usually overestimate the price of their cards 2.) A good percentage (didnt say all) of high grade cards are slabbed and 3.) there is too much variance in the grading of raw cards...so, it's very difficult to detect a ex from a nm in a lot of cases (especially when you are not handling the card, as in the case of ebay). Add #4 into the mix, which are the cautions of buying raw on ebay (trimmed, reprint, sellers who underestimate grade), and you get quite a challenging task on your hand.
Now, if your collection is modest...i can probably see this happening. For instance, if im trying to sell 50's and 60's cards...and my collection comprises of 1988 donruss and 1991 topps....then, sure....one good stroke of luck, and youve got your collection paid for. Otherwise, good luck....because you'll need to invest a good amount of time, leg work and even initial cash (not to mention thick skin and some good luck) to get a sizable enough profit to pay for vintage collections.
However, I have been thinking about an LLC. I would then rent storage space and contact topps chewing gum company to sell me cases of baseball, movie and garbage pail kids cards and sell them on ebay along with things I no longer want in my collection. Then I can right off storage space, ebay fees, postage, etc. I need storage space anyway for a few of my belongings even though it will mostly house the cases. I wonder if it can work the way I am imaging it. I think in a 5 year span, the LLC must make a profit at least 3 of those years in order for losses to be tax deductable. Well, how about running the business at only a slight profit. The advantage is that you can right off the cards and cases you want for your own personal collection.
I have such a small collection that it is far from sustainable. I always buy.....
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
I see large lots in auction houses all the time that sell and then show up in pieces on ebay. Tracking some of them, I can see the sellers make a pretty decent profit. Once you get over 15-20K in a big auction it shakes out a lot of people, and the lot is often worth more than the sum of its parts. The biggest competition in these type of auctions are on the smaller lots- <5K. I think it's a lot tougher to flip those.
I'm pretty much as the same point as Jason, I'm mostly upgrading, so even when I buy something I get something back, just about always more than I paid for it (due to rising prices and holding it a while). I've just never been able to sell a card I didn't have a better one of, and I think that is the problem with being a dealer- you have to not be attached to this stuff, so you can sell when 2 guys get into it for registry bragging rights.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>I I've just never been able to sell a card I didn't have a better one of, and I think that is the problem with being a dealer- you have to not be attached to this stuff, so you can sell when 2 guys get into it for registry bragging rights. >>
That's one of my biggest problems...I tried to deal at shows about 15 years ago..but I simply could not sell my collection. I felt like I was losing a family member! What I do though, is look for "deals" and resell them as I progress up the ladder of upgrading. If I have a PSA 6, I search for a PSA 7 for as much or little more than what I paid for the 6..then I resell the 6. Sometimes I can do it quickly...sometimes it might take a year or two. I have been able to upgrade and only spend slightly more. Sometimes I can resell the lesser grade card for more than the higher grade. Supply/demand and luck plays a part obviously.
View Vintage Football Cards For Sale
David
Alot of working capital is a definite advantage. I see posts on net 54 or other boards all the time about the latest Mastro auction or whatever it is, and they're looking for a partner or someone only needs a few cards. Very few people have $10-15-20 k that they can spend just like that. The higher the lot value, I would think the higher the break value.
If you know the set well and build a network of buyers, there's not much downside.
Unless you've got great sources, playing the raw/graded game is extremely hit or miss. And it's a diminishing game as more and more cards get graded.
An advantage here would be knowing the seller personally. If your friends/co workers know you collect cards you could offer them a percentage of the deal if they know of someones old time collection. It's remote, but you might find something good.
I belonged to an online business networking site, and as a hobby, listed collecting cards. Someone messaged me out of the blue about a card collection (it was 88-92 stuff), but hey....you never know.
To accomplish this goal - since no one has discovered/invented perpetual motion to satisfy a "self-sustaining hobby" - one has to create a steady state between one's selling inventory and collecting inventory.
KEY: just look at all of the threads that have been started about - "I sold this on ebay and.........."
Many times it involves a sale that's gone south for the winter...
So, no matter how you slice or dice it, this looks like work - i.e. - a part-time job.
And I have a terrible aversion to additional work.
One can definitely set up an "arrangement" to help defray the cost of their hobby - but some work and time will accompany it - along with some stress and annoyance.
If anyone does this...
I would like to hear how it goes and I wish them the best.
mike
<< <i>What's your method jmbkb4? I had thought about buying complete sets raw and trying to resell. Since the $$ amount comes out more if you sell them as singles it looks like that may be the best route for a little profit. Is that the best idea or is buying raw and then getting them graded the only and best way to do it? I've had a hard time doing that since you basically get mostly 1/2 SMR for 60s HOFers in 7s or 8s or at least that's my experience with the exception of certain issues such as 62 and 71 Topps baseball. It's just so hard to find good raw stuff these days, at least in 50s-70s stuff. I think I'm putting a want ad in the paper next week to see how that works. >>
In short, I've been extremely fortunate to have been given the opportunity to buy numerous 1993 Refractors at insanely low prices, have them grade insanely high, and be able to sell them to members of the registry/elsewhere who are willing to pay 'really' good prices for the cards.
I've also made some money buying cards of a player just as the player is getting hot. If you get in early enough you can make some monster profit. Since I lack the funds to buy in bulk I havn't made a ton doing this. If I had a spare grand or two I would have been all over Cowboy's QB Romo like feas on cow dung several weeks ago and wouldn't need to worry about the downpayment on a house this summer. When I get board I'll browse eBay for certain players and scoop up the occaisional bargain for flipping later. The new hot trend is to nail those underpriced BINs. Of course, don't forget to browse the local and regional card shows where bargains always seem to show up in one form or another. I recently purchased a perfectly centered 1985 Topps Clemens rookie that I'm certain will grade a 9 or better for a whopping $12. Even with a 9 I should easily triple my initial investment. I've got a few other untested ideas that I'll play with in the comming months. I'm a relatively small fish that realizes the bigger fish have more money to play with. Hopefully when I'm completely caught up with everything I can step it up a notch.
To summarize: You can sustain your card hobby or even profit from it. This takes both focus and time. The more focus you have, the less time you'll need.
- If you are in a state like California (like Digicat is) think twice before you form a business entity (like LLC) as it will cost you a MINIMUM of $1,000 a year. I advise a lot of clients to go the sole prop route for business formation. Especially when then there is no liability risk to their business. Tax deductions work the same for entity or sole prop.
- Tax ID numbers are easy to obtain on IRS website in about 5 minutes. You can get one for a business entity or for a sole prop. However, a tax ID is NOT the same as a re-sale license which is a state issued permit (not sure of cost) and thus does not cause you to avoid sales tax.
- Hobby loss rules are the IRS rules related to the kind of business it sounds like people are mentioning in this thread. That is, they want to take the loss but what about paying tax on gains? I think you can take a loss for 2 years but then the IRS deems it is a hobby and not a business. Additionally, I think the losses can only be offset against your gains in your new "business." Probably easier to do what most people on Ebay do... be very very quiet with the tax authorities! Put another way, how many of you tell the IRS when you sell your Tony Romo rookie card for $1,100 but you only spent $5 for it?
- To the card side of it... I find it difficult to be fully self sustaining. However, I personally try not to make it "cost" too much new money. Of course one of the easiest ways to do this is keep getting old cards graded that I already own. I personally don't have time to make it into another job.
Good luck to all.
<< <i>However, a tax ID is NOT the same as a re-sale license which is a state issued permit (not sure of cost) and thus does not cause you to avoid sales tax. >>
Can only answer for CA. but any business selling retail is required to have a sellers permit, and must charge and turnover sales tax to the state. This is also the same as a resale license, and is free. It takes all of 10 minutes to get. Filing a resale card (with your sellers permit number) with an instate seller exempts you from being charged sales tax from that seller, based on your intention of reselling the item.
A tax id number is similar to a SS# in use and function, and is like this: 95-xxxxxxxx A sellers permit is typically SRASxx-xxxxxx
If you do anything under the radar, like not charging sales tax on in state sales, or even worse, collecting sales tax and not reporting it, they will find you. And the SBofE (the sales tax board) makes the IRS seem ultra pleasant. I had a friend who was charging tax but not reporting it and they showed up with guys in windbreakers and started carrying out everything that wasn't nailed down.
If you are calling it a business just to avoid paying taxes on your hobby, you really need to talk to a reputable CPA. A couple of hundred dollars can save you a lot of hassle.
Bottom line- if you're going to run a business, do it professionally. It's not hard once you have a system in place. And it saves you a lot of headache.
edited to say- I"m am not a CPA or attorney, just someone who has had a sole proprietorship business for 25 years. Anything read here should be verified by a tax professional. And I concur about the cost of a LLC. IMO unless you have partners or a huge about of potential liability exposure (that can't be covered by the insurance you should have anyway) I would stick with sole proprietor status. Just a 2 page Schedule C to file instead of a whole extra return.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
The vision I have is that I would need to rent a storage space, get a resale permit, Tax ID, maybe a small pickup truck (oh wait, business vehicles have to weigh 6000lbs in order for it to be written off), etc. An LLC would be added to the expenses and also getting the cards from Topps Chewing Gum Company. I can make thousands selling the stuff on ebay. With all those expenses, I may be just above red. This is fine because of all the perks that come with this business namely having my own personal collection beefed up and paid for. Also, some storage space and maybe even a pick up truck.....stuff I need anyway but its nice to write off everything.
As it is now, my income is so low and itemization does not make sense at this point, so I cannot write off ANYTHING even though I do buy stuff for the sole reason of my employment. I am a teacher so I buy books and videos out of my own pocket just to make the lessons interesting for my students. I cannot write off any of it bcause then I would have to have over $5000 in tax deductable write offs to lump them into. My income is not so high where I can be spending and donating to charity all that much even though I want to be able to donate to the Chris Reeve Foundation big time.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
<< <i>
The vision I have is that I would need to rent a storage space, get a resale permit, Tax ID, maybe a small pickup truck (oh wait, business vehicles have to weigh 6000lbs in order for it to be written off), etc. An LLC would be added to the expenses and also getting the cards from Topps Chewing Gum Company. I can make thousands selling the stuff on ebay. With all those expenses, I may be just above red. This is fine because of all the perks that come with this business namely having my own personal collection beefed up and paid for. Also, some storage space and maybe even a pick up truck.....stuff I need anyway but its nice to write off everything.
>>
I live in California, own a general partnership (based in CA) and an LLC -- filed in North Carolina. Depending on the state the LLC does not cost $1000. Completely agree with Griffins --- you'll want a reputable CPA and probably an attorney to help set up the business. All that said, I agree with this above quote --- and that was sort of my original idea. IF you take the time to set up the business right (whether you go LLC or dba route), you can essentially "beef up" your collection "within" your business. Your business can still make a profit, but it's marginal really. In essence, you only operate the business to enjoy your hobby at a higher level --- not to use it to replace your other job.
That's my thought.
-Tom
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Please, consult someone before going down this path. My sister thought in a similar vein, and did it for 3 years. And then the IRS explained to her their thoughts, and it cost here the equivalent of a years gross salary. You may be fine, but wouldnt you sleep better knowing that for sure?
I've got a great accountant very near you, and he's not expensive. PM me if you need the number, but in any case please consider talking to someone.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
LOL. I love it.
Arthur
I don't think anyone here said anything about a "sure-fire" way to make money.
.... I'm an entrepreneur ... and I seem to only be able to look at things as "opportunities" ---- I think what I've been describing is a way to "pay less" for your hobby ....but buy "paying less" there's little doubt that you'll be "paying more" of your time. Time being money --- I doubt I'll end up doing any of what has been discussed.
-t
------- 1960 Topps Baseball PSA 8+
------- 1985 Topps Hockey PSA 9+
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
I entirely agree with you. I would not go forward unless I talked to experts first. I am sure that I have some things not quite right and there must be good ideas that I have not thought about that a tax advisor can surely show me the path.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
I'm not sure but at one time Topps would only sell wholesale to those that had a storefront.
Steve
Another question you need to ask yourself is why do you want to use a LLC. Will you be the only owner? What is the asset protection benefits of a single member LLC in CA? If you form the LLC in another state, will you need to register the LLC in CA as a foreign business. Do you plan on leaving assets titled in the name of LLC? What will be your Federal tax election?
David
You may want to speak to kuhlman, he had an inside tract to topps recently and could possibly shed some light on this.
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>Has anyone here (who's not a full time card dealer) managed to get you collection to the point where it kind of pays for itself, through the "buy raw, sell graded" route or through buying sets and selling off everything, etc)?
It seems to me like this would be possible w/o turning the hobby into a job. >>
Definitely. I pay for all the cards I want and have been fortunate enough to be able to set a substantial amount aside. >>
I don't doubt this. Shady auctions notwithstanding, I would think that if you've committed yourself to buying PSA 9 '93 Refractors, then simply cracking them and resubmitting them, then you've likely done quite well for yourself. If someone was looking for a set that they could eventually complete without spending much money simply by taking advantage of third party grading inefficiencies I think this is the one I would direct them to.
Along the same lines, I think a guy could probably turn a decent profit simply by buying and cracking high end PSA/BGS 9's of modern RC's (I'm thinking here of the $300 and up post-2000 RC's, the ones with autos, jersey swatches and so on) and resubmitting those as well.
<< <i>The grading fees would add to the basis of the inventory, would not be an expense.
Peace
Doug >>
Nah.....I am an accountant.....you could expense it, IF you so desired. In other words you could go both ways here.
1955 Bowman Raw complete with 90% Ex-NR or better
Now seeking 1949 Eureka Sportstamps...NM condition
Working on '78 Autographed set now 99.9% complete -
Working on '89 Topps autoed set now complete
PSA grading
archival materials from UltraPro
storage space
shrink wrap machine
small pick up truck like a Toyota Tacoma?? Perhaps mileage from your own vehicle I suppose
Maestro Auction win (keep 5% of the stuff for yourself and rest will be sold on ebay)
Purchases off ebay, especially large lot and cases
Packaging supplies
postage
Storage Shelves (Ikea here I come)
Topps merchandise (if they will even sell to a non-brick and mortar entity).
The occasional lunch business meetings
Baseball card show fees
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Has anyone here (who's not a full time card dealer) managed to get you collection to the point where it kind of pays for itself, through the "buy raw, sell graded" route or through buying sets and selling off everything, etc)?
It seems to me like this would be possible w/o turning the hobby into a job. >>
Definitely. I pay for all the cards I want and have been fortunate enough to be able to set a substantial amount aside. >>
I don't doubt this. Shady auctions notwithstanding, I would think that if you've committed yourself to buying PSA 9 '93 Refractors, then simply cracking them and resubmitting them, then you've likely done quite well for yourself. If someone was looking for a set that they could eventually complete without spending much money simply by taking advantage of third party grading inefficiencies I think this is the one I would direct them to.
Along the same lines, I think a guy could probably turn a decent profit simply by buying and cracking high end PSA/BGS 9's of modern RC's (I'm thinking here of the $300 and up post-2000 RC's, the ones with autos, jersey swatches and so on) and resubmitting those as well. >>
Oh, so you're still jealously whining about my "shady auctions?"
Did you know that fight-fraud's "trimmed" Willie Greene was graded PSA 9?
And fight-fraud took more than $100 from eBay?
Before you make an ass out of yourself, you should check your facts.
And if you knew, bottom line, what I've made on 1993 Refractors in the past year, you'd probably be even nastier to me.
<< <i>
<< <i>Has anyone here (who's not a full time card dealer) managed to get you collection to the point where it kind of pays for itself, through the "buy raw, sell graded" route or through buying sets and selling off everything, etc)?
It seems to me like this would be possible w/o turning the hobby into a job. >>
Definitely. I pay for all the cards I want and have been fortunate enough to be able to set a substantial amount aside. >>
I don't doubt this. Shady auctions notwithstanding, I would think that if you've committed yourself to buying PSA 9 '93 Refractors, then simply cracking them and resubmitting them, then you've likely done quite well for yourself. If someone was looking for a set that they could eventually complete without spending much money simply by taking advantage of third party grading inefficiencies I think this is the one I would direct them to.
Along the same lines, I think a guy could probably turn a decent profit simply by buying and cracking high end PSA/BGS 9's of modern RC's (I'm thinking here of the $300 and up post-2000 RC's, the ones with autos, jersey swatches and so on) and resubmitting those as well. >>
Oh, so you're still jealously whining about my "shady auctions?"
Did you know that fight-fraud's "trimmed" Willie Greene was graded PSA 9?
And fight-fraud took more than $100 from eBay?
Before you make an ass out of yourself, you should check your facts.
And if you knew, bottom line, what I've made on 1993 Refractors in the past year, you'd probably be even nastier to me.
Did fight fraud ever give you that card back? Because if he didn't then that is seriously bush league.
Also, it wouldn't hurt YOU to do a cursory fact check. I've never been 'nasty' to you-- all I did was point out the obvious. Put it this way; if you bought a 1962 Mantle off Ebay that was advertised as 'Mint' and 'Perfect in Every Way'-- phrases that you used in the Greene auction, might I remind you--would you feel like you were deceived if the card you received in the mail was 1/16" short? I would. And I bet you would too, as would everyone else here. So, insofar as 'deceitful' relates to 'shady', it's time for you to step up and take your medicine. I'm sure that the idea of reaping what you sow is just utter anathema to a little punk like you, but hey-- at some point we all need to ascend to adulthood, even if that means being shamed into doing so by strangers on the Internet.
And the second thing I pointed out was that I never believed for one instant that the reason you didn't grade the Greene was because, as you put it, 'you're poor, and PSA grading fees are expensive', but I would hope that even you would lose all respect for someone if they bought that line of crap. Which brings me to another piece of sage counsel which I'm going to offer you free of charge- If you can't think up a good excuse, then just don't offer one at all.
I don't care what sort of post-production enhancements you apply to your '93 refractors, and to be honest I don't really care. If you can buzz 'em through the old rotatrimmer and still get them slabbed then more power to you. I wouldn't hold that kind of behavior against you for a minute-- and I'm not being facecious when I say that. But when you misrepresent a card in an auction then you should offer the buyer a refund if they catch you on it. That was my only point at the time, and that's my only point now. Whatever happened later-- whether fight fraud screwed Ebay for a C-Note, or called your employer, or tried to get the Today show to do an expose on your sketchy selling habits-- doesn't relate in any way to the central point I tried to convey in the earlier thread on this topic. >>
Oh-- and before I forget-- you may just be proud as punch at having netted 15 grand or whatever by brokering in refractors, and that's great. I'm glad you're pleased with yourself. But you should reconcile yourself to the fact that a) nobody here really cares if you've made any money or not with these cards, least of all me, and b) any feelings I have about your business practices are not informed by any jealousy I feel towards your profit margin. Any monkey can make money in the crack and submit game if they just apply a little time and energy to the project. The fact that you've done this is fine, but you're a fool if you think the success of this little endeavor of yours is a reflection of some kind of rare business acumen that only you are lucky enough to possess.
Next, hopefully your "beauties" will land in the lap of some grader whose dog was just flattened on the interstate, or struck by some other major, life-altering dilemma. (See the ever-popular G.O.D. thread, and, of course, PSA's subjectivity disclaimer).
Finally, take your mid-1980s' PSA 7s and 8s, list on eBay for $.99 and let 'er rip!
I've found this cutting-edge business model to be very lucrative!
Lawyers, shmoyers.
Accountants? Who needs 'em!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Has anyone here (who's not a full time card dealer) managed to get you collection to the point where it kind of pays for itself, through the "buy raw, sell graded" route or through buying sets and selling off everything, etc)?
It seems to me like this would be possible w/o turning the hobby into a job. >>
Definitely. I pay for all the cards I want and have been fortunate enough to be able to set a substantial amount aside. >>
I don't doubt this. Shady auctions notwithstanding, I would think that if you've committed yourself to buying PSA 9 '93 Refractors, then simply cracking them and resubmitting them, then you've likely done quite well for yourself. If someone was looking for a set that they could eventually complete without spending much money simply by taking advantage of third party grading inefficiencies I think this is the one I would direct them to.
Along the same lines, I think a guy could probably turn a decent profit simply by buying and cracking high end PSA/BGS 9's of modern RC's (I'm thinking here of the $300 and up post-2000 RC's, the ones with autos, jersey swatches and so on) and resubmitting those as well. >>
Oh, so you're still jealously whining about my "shady auctions?"
Did you know that fight-fraud's "trimmed" Willie Greene was graded PSA 9?
And fight-fraud took more than $100 from eBay?
Before you make an ass out of yourself, you should check your facts.
And if you knew, bottom line, what I've made on 1993 Refractors in the past year, you'd probably be even nastier to me.
Did fight fraud ever give you that card back? Because if he didn't then that is seriously bush league.
Also, it wouldn't hurt YOU to do a cursory fact check. I've never been 'nasty' to you-- all I did was point out the obvious. Put it this way; if you bought a 1962 Mantle off Ebay that was advertised as 'Mint' and 'Perfect in Every Way'-- phrases that you used in the Greene auction, might I remind you--would you feel like you were deceived if the card you received in the mail was 1/16" short? I would. And I bet you would too, as would everyone else here. So, insofar as 'deceitful' relates to 'shady', it's time for you to step up and take your medicine. I'm sure that the idea of reaping what you sow is just utter anathema to a little punk like you, but hey-- at some point we all need to ascend to adulthood, even if that means being shamed into doing so by strangers on the Internet.
And the second thing I pointed out was that I never believed for one instant that the reason you didn't grade the Greene was because, as you put it, 'you're poor, and PSA grading fees are expensive', but I would hope that even you would lose all respect for someone if they bought that line of crap. Which brings me to another piece of sage counsel which I'm going to offer you free of charge- If you can't think up a good excuse, then just don't offer one at all.
I don't care what sort of post-production enhancements you apply to your '93 refractors, and to be honest I don't really care. If you can buzz 'em through the old rotatrimmer and still get them slabbed then more power to you. I wouldn't hold that kind of behavior against you for a minute-- and I'm not being facecious when I say that. But when you misrepresent a card in an auction then you should offer the buyer a refund if they catch you on it. That was my only point at the time, and that's my only point now. Whatever happened later-- whether fight fraud screwed Ebay for a C-Note, or called your employer, or tried to get the Today show to do an expose on your sketchy selling habits-- doesn't relate in any way to the central point I tried to convey in the earlier thread on this topic. >>
Oh-- and before I forget-- you may just be proud as punch at having netted 15 grand or whatever by brokering in refractors, and that's great. I'm glad you're pleased with yourself. But you should reconcile yourself to the fact that a) nobody here really cares if you've made any money or not with these cards, least of all me, and b) any feelings I have about your business practices are not informed by any jealousy I feel towards your profit margin. Any monkey can make money in the crack and submit game if they just apply a little time and energy to the project. The fact that you've done this is fine, but you're a fool if you think the success of this little endeavor of yours is a reflection of some kind of rare business acumen that only you are lucky enough to possess. >>
Dude.......See why I thought you were a woman?
All kidding aside, I still don't understand why a situation that never involved you in ANY way still evoked & evokes such emotion in you. This is why I, in good faith, have no other recourse but to believe that you are jealous. Reread your post -- do you feel the emotion, the rage, in your words? You are the one who passive-aggressively inserted yourself into this thread on my behalf. Again, I have no clue why you feel the need to do so. Because PSA graded the Willie Greene, I feel that I need to defend this card no more. That is the point in utilizing independent/third party grading. I was never worried.
In any case, if you want to think that I've only made $15,000 net in these 1993 Refractors, that is your perogative.
At this point I also must concede that you attack me not out of jealousy but because of your life, which must be a sad, bitter, angry place.
I am not mad at you; I am sorry if I projected that. In the end, I guess I pity you.
<< <i>First, I highly recommend a fistful of high interest credit cards (Chase has a great 22% APR card, of which I am very proud carrier) to purchase inventory, cover grading costs (PSA, of course), and any other "hobby" expenses incurred.
Next, hopefully your "beauties" will land in the lap of some grader whose dog was just flattened on the interstate, or struck by some other major, life-altering dilemma. (See the ever-popular G.O.D. thread, and, of course, PSA's subjectivity disclaimer).
Finally, take your mid-1980s' PSA 7s and 8s, list on eBay for $.99 and let 'er rip!
I've found this cutting-edge business model to be very lucrative!
Lawyers, shmoyers.
Accountants? Who needs 'em! >>
And now, ladies and gentlemen, you can understand why NJM is my favorite poster on these boards. Preach it from the pulpit, brother!
Let's not forget here that it's also imperative that you understand that you could actually do quite well for yourself by just buying cards like the 2001 Bowman Chrome Pujols in PSA /BGS 9 holders, then sending them back again and again until you finally get the 10, at which point you clear a cool 4 grand for your trouble. This business model, while almost surely lucrative, has two fatal flaws: First, it doesn't allow you 'crack boxes from your youth', and second, it does not give you the opportunity to find your study/den/computer room awash in $3 slabs six months after you kick your financial plan for world dominance into high gear.
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<< <i>Has anyone here (who's not a full time card dealer) managed to get you collection to the point where it kind of pays for itself, through the "buy raw, sell graded" route or through buying sets and selling off everything, etc)?
It seems to me like this would be possible w/o turning the hobby into a job. >>
Definitely. I pay for all the cards I want and have been fortunate enough to be able to set a substantial amount aside. >>
I don't doubt this. Shady auctions notwithstanding, I would think that if you've committed yourself to buying PSA 9 '93 Refractors, then simply cracking them and resubmitting them, then you've likely done quite well for yourself. If someone was looking for a set that they could eventually complete without spending much money simply by taking advantage of third party grading inefficiencies I think this is the one I would direct them to.
Along the same lines, I think a guy could probably turn a decent profit simply by buying and cracking high end PSA/BGS 9's of modern RC's (I'm thinking here of the $300 and up post-2000 RC's, the ones with autos, jersey swatches and so on) and resubmitting those as well. >>
Oh, so you're still jealously whining about my "shady auctions?"
Did you know that fight-fraud's "trimmed" Willie Greene was graded PSA 9?
And fight-fraud took more than $100 from eBay?
Before you make an ass out of yourself, you should check your facts.
And if you knew, bottom line, what I've made on 1993 Refractors in the past year, you'd probably be even nastier to me.
Did fight fraud ever give you that card back? Because if he didn't then that is seriously bush league.
Also, it wouldn't hurt YOU to do a cursory fact check. I've never been 'nasty' to you-- all I did was point out the obvious. Put it this way; if you bought a 1962 Mantle off Ebay that was advertised as 'Mint' and 'Perfect in Every Way'-- phrases that you used in the Greene auction, might I remind you--would you feel like you were deceived if the card you received in the mail was 1/16" short? I would. And I bet you would too, as would everyone else here. So, insofar as 'deceitful' relates to 'shady', it's time for you to step up and take your medicine. I'm sure that the idea of reaping what you sow is just utter anathema to a little punk like you, but hey-- at some point we all need to ascend to adulthood, even if that means being shamed into doing so by strangers on the Internet.
And the second thing I pointed out was that I never believed for one instant that the reason you didn't grade the Greene was because, as you put it, 'you're poor, and PSA grading fees are expensive', but I would hope that even you would lose all respect for someone if they bought that line of crap. Which brings me to another piece of sage counsel which I'm going to offer you free of charge- If you can't think up a good excuse, then just don't offer one at all.
I don't care what sort of post-production enhancements you apply to your '93 refractors, and to be honest I don't really care. If you can buzz 'em through the old rotatrimmer and still get them slabbed then more power to you. I wouldn't hold that kind of behavior against you for a minute-- and I'm not being facecious when I say that. But when you misrepresent a card in an auction then you should offer the buyer a refund if they catch you on it. That was my only point at the time, and that's my only point now. Whatever happened later-- whether fight fraud screwed Ebay for a C-Note, or called your employer, or tried to get the Today show to do an expose on your sketchy selling habits-- doesn't relate in any way to the central point I tried to convey in the earlier thread on this topic. >>
Oh-- and before I forget-- you may just be proud as punch at having netted 15 grand or whatever by brokering in refractors, and that's great. I'm glad you're pleased with yourself. But you should reconcile yourself to the fact that a) nobody here really cares if you've made any money or not with these cards, least of all me, and b) any feelings I have about your business practices are not informed by any jealousy I feel towards your profit margin. Any monkey can make money in the crack and submit game if they just apply a little time and energy to the project. The fact that you've done this is fine, but you're a fool if you think the success of this little endeavor of yours is a reflection of some kind of rare business acumen that only you are lucky enough to possess. >>
Dude.......See why I thought you were a woman?
All kidding aside, I still don't understand why a situation that never involved you in ANY way still evoked & evokes such emotion in you. This is why I, in good faith, have no other recourse but to believe that you are jealous. Reread your post -- do you feel the emotion, the rage, in your words? You are the one who passive-aggressively inserted yourself into this thread on my behalf. Again, I have no clue why you feel the need to do so. Because PSA graded the Willie Greene, I feel that I need to defend this card no more. That is the point in utilizing independent/third party grading. I was never worried.
In any case, if you want to think that I've only made $15,000 net in these 1993 Refractors, that is your perogative.
At this point I also must concede that you attack me not out of jealousy but because of your life, which must be a sad, bitter, angry place.
I am not mad at you; I am sorry if I projected that. In the end, I guess I pity you. >>
I have no idea how much you've made screwing around with refractors, and as I've said before it is of no interest to me. You made $50K? 100K? Good for you.
I find the fact that you assumed- and, indeed, continue to assume-- a stance of righteous indignation after having been outed for running a questionable auction to be irritating, and that vein of irritation runs through my responses to you. If you just can't see what all the hoopla is about then what can I say, other then I thank Christ that you aren't my doctor.
And thanks for opening your resevoir of pity the unlearned and unwashed amongst us. Who needs shelter on a cold night when I have your sympathies to warm me?
Lastly, I wish you the best of luck going forward on your 1993 refractor dealings. This may seem hard to believe, but I actually do mean that.
not having enough money to submit the Willie Greene card because short on money .....OK
It all adds up to BS and this why not only Boopotts but so many others here are enormously irritated for having our intelligence insulted in such a nonsensical way. This is just pointing out the obvious.
_________________________________________
Now back to a business discussion. People use to buy AGS graded cards and cracked those out and submitted them to PSA so they will sell higher. AGS has very good standards of grading but is not so well known. I try and search for those cards on ebay whenever I can because its the cheapest way to get the cards I want in perfect condition. Raw cards cannot be trusted---lets be realistic.
I don't see many AGS cards on ebay anymore, so I think that lucrative business has dried out.
BST: Tennessebanker, Downtown1974, LarkinCollector, nendee
<< <i>not having enough money to submit the Willie Greene card because short on money .....OK >>
fa·ce·tious /fəˈsiʃəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fuh-see-shuhs] -
–adjective
1. not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark.
2. amusing; humorous.
3. lacking serious intent; concerned with something nonessential, amusing, or frivolous: a facetious person.
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<< <i>not having enough money to submit the Willie Greene card because short on money .....OK >>
fa·ce·tious /fəˈsiʃəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fuh-see-shuhs] -
–adjective
1. not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark.
2. amusing; humorous.
3. lacking serious intent; concerned with something nonessential, amusing, or frivolous: a facetious person. >>
Let the record show that I don't, for one minute, believe you were making a subtle stab at humor when you offered up that reason for not grading the card.
But I am happy to humor you, and so I'll ask it again (is this the fourth time? I've lost count). If the Greene was 'perfect in every way', and 'mint', then why didn't you submit it yourself?
Next, hopefully your "beauties" will land in the lap of some grader whose dog was just flattened on the interstate, or struck by some other major, life-altering dilemma. (See the ever-popular G.O.D. thread, and, of course, PSA's subjectivity disclaimer).
Finally, take your mid-1980s' PSA 7s and 8s, list on eBay for $.99 and let 'er rip!
I've found this cutting-edge business model to be very lucrative!
Lawyers, shmoyers.
Accountants? Who needs 'em!
Hey Meathook -
Is this your user id?
julen
RIP GURU
Over the long run, opening new product will not generate profits....even if you are direct. I think the best way to reduce your hobby costs (not make money) is to buy and flip.....or buy, grade and flip modern cards on eBay. At any given time, I bid on 300+ auctions hoping for a steal. Good customer service on eBay is not an everyday occurrence which makes easy to win over people with quality cards and quick shipping. I have a very, very small "customer base" that will buy cards without having to list them on eBay.
Am I going to be rich, no. However, I do pocket $200ish a month to spend on more cards!
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<< <i>not having enough money to submit the Willie Greene card because short on money .....OK >>
fa·ce·tious /fəˈsiʃəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fuh-see-shuhs] -
–adjective
1. not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark.
2. amusing; humorous.
3. lacking serious intent; concerned with something nonessential, amusing, or frivolous: a facetious person. >>
Let the record show that I don't, for one minute, believe you were making a subtle stab at humor when you offered up that reason for not grading the card.
But I am happy to humor you, and so I'll ask it again (is this the fourth time? I've lost count). If the Greene was 'perfect in every way', and 'mint', then why didn't you submit it yourself? >>
PSA 9s were selling for $150 on eBay. I had 3 PSA 10s and 6 PSA 9s at that time, all from my personal submissions.
The card was/is being hoarded in RAW condition by a particular eBay user that was bidding $130 or so on the card. It wasn't worth my time or effort to have them graded, as it costs around $11/card for me with shipping both ways. So I set my reserve for $129, made $110/card after eBay fees, and called it a day. To avoid eBay fees, I sold the remaining copies off eBay for a substantial amount. If this is confusing, please ask the question again, and I will do my best to elucidate.
Thanks for asking. As always, I appreciate your interest/concern.