Another non-answer on the Q&A forum

tmot99

Here is a question posted by MadMonk on the Q&A forum. It sounds like he had a PCGS 65FBL that he sent in for regrade. He tells me it was sent in in the PCGS holder. It came back as a 66 with no FBL. He asked How could this happen.

CoinKing's response is that it shouldn't have happened.

There was no "send it back in to my attention and I'll...."
There was no "I'll talk to ______ about it"
There was no "Talk to Customer Service and they'll take care ot it"

No solution. No explanation how it could happen. Another non-answer. Why have a Q&A (the A stands for Answer) if you aren't going to provide an answer? They may as well just can the forum if they aren't going to treat it seriously.

ColonialCoinUnion

First of all, try to relax.

I saw this question, and the answer.

I believe a similar question was asked some time ago to David Hall and he explained that this actually could happen for 'in-between' coins that were borderline 65 / 66 and borderline FBL / No FBL. That example may have been a Jefferson FS issue, or maybe a SLQ FH issue - I can't remember the specific coin but the scenario was the same.

I tried to find that old link but couldn't - maybe someone else can.

ColonialCoinUnion

OK - I finally found it.

jayboxx

I agree that is a pretty sad response.

ajia

If you sent the coin in under our regrade service (i.e. in our holder), the designation should not have disappeared.
Sounds simple enough
We all know grading is subjective, and not perfect.

Was the coin cracked out & resubmitted? Sounds like it, and I would say you take your chances once cracked out.

Same with GRANDAM's coin.....
#1 - MS65FS
#2 - MS66
#3 - MS65FS
#4 - MS66
#5 - MS66 This was the "Designation Review" submission listed above

Why not leave it in the MS65FS when sending it in for "Designation Review", trying to get a grade bump, instead of sending in the MS66 & trying to get a FS designation?
Of course hindsight is always 20/20, but I understand the answers.

Cnitas

Well....did MadMonk try calling Customer Service first? No?
Coinking, who I am sure is quite busy, did answer the question...it would seem that the appropriate next step for MadMonk would be to contact customer service *now* since the question has been resolved.

Russ

<< <i>Was the coin cracked out & resubmitted? Sounds like it, and I would say you take your chances once cracked out. >>



I don't know where you get that from his question. Madmonk is not stupid. If he had cracked it out, he knows the risks. He sent it in for upgrade - as in still in the holder.

Russ, NCNE

marmac

This sounds more like a failure in the standard operating procedures at PCGS. However, it just sheds more light on the subjectivity of grading and special designations.

Good luck madmonk!

notwilight

I saw this and thought the answer was appropriate. It seems most likely this was a crackout and there is risk associated with that. If it wasn't a crackout, the poster can send a copy of coinking's response to customer service and get presidential treatment. --Jerry

bushmaster8

Very typical response...superficial, and no follow thru...

keets

there are a couple of ways to look at this and i think the answer given explains one of them, but i've had things explained to me in the past in different ways.

Ron Guth seems to give an answer which explains things the way i understand them but it's vitally important on anything past a standard raw submission to state plainly on the form what you want, then followup with a phone call to customer service. on the subject coin, we assume that the assigned grade was MS65FBL but that's actually two different things when a review is involved; there's the grade of MS65 and the designation of FBL. you can request a review of either the grade or the designation, though it's logical to assume that the designation review would usually be requested when it hasn't been assigned. at a review where one or the other isn't specified(ie.---grade review or designation review) the coin would just be "graded" as a raw coin and lose any prior claim to a designation.

i suspect that this coin was sent in for grade review with no specification or note about the designation such as "any FBL grade only" or whatever customer service directs you to note on the form. in that instance, coming back as MS66 would seem to be an upgrade, though it may lessen the value of the coin to lose the designation. the trouble with strike designators is that they tend to be a little more subjective than grades.

since the coin is in a holder with a well documented paper trail, i expect that the worst that can happen is that it gets back into the original MS65FBL holder or there will be some form of monetary compensation. sometimes i think we can be quick to assume that PCGS has screwed the pooch when they are actually only doing what we ask them to do.

bushmaster8

IF the coin was sent as a regrade (in the holder), as I believe it was (although that is not made crystal clear in Monks original question nor in this thread), then it simply should not have lost the FBL desig.

It is not supposed to happen! Period!

keets

see Bushmaster, you're not paying attention to the fine points here. technically, MS66 is a higher grade than MS65FBL. if the coin was sent in for a regrade, it's cracked and graded raw at any grade MS65FBL and higher, which is clearly what happened.

keep in mind that i'm not necessarily defending what happened, but if nothing specific was noted or understood by PCGS, they did what was asked of them; they cracked the coin out and regraded it.

just ask yourself the simple question, is MS66 a higher grade than MS65FBL??

centmaster

No, no, no. The FBL designation comes first, and they would eliminate it in favor of an upgrade only if the owner specifically says it's OK.

CarsonCityGold

Try this answer link to designation question posted by homerunhall in 2005. Designations (FBL) should NOT disapear if sent in the slab for "regrade".

keets

well, you guys can argue the point if you'd like. it's just not important enough to me to be right. have fun.

keets

Designations (FBL) should NOT disapear if sent in the slab for "regrade".

if you look at my first reply, you'll notice that i said there are a couple of ways to interpret what happened and i added that it's important to contact customer service to avoid confusion. PCGS doesn't help with their submission forms, so absent MadMonk coming into the thread and explaining exactly what he requested, we can only speculate.

i would think that if a submitter checks the regrade box for Type of Submission and follows with checking Regular as the Service Level than the coin will be regraded. there is a box for Designation Review which limits what can be "Graded" or changed, but i don't see anywhere that states that a designation will hold at a regrade. perhaps the solution is to leave the coin in the MS66 holder and send it for a Presidential review to get the designation back, holding HRH hostage with the linked answer.

bushmaster8

<< <i>just ask yourself the simple question, is MS66 a higher grade than MS65FBL?? >>



Well, in commercial 3rd party grading, the grade assigned is supposed to be a shorthand equivalent to the value assigned.

So, in the case of Frankies, (much like your beloved Jeffs), in many cases, NO! MS66 is NOT a higher grade ($$) than MS65 FBL.

Example: 1952-S MS66= $200 or so
1952-S MS65FBL= $1000+

IrishMike

maybe a FBL in a 65 isn't a FBL in a 66 holder.

Russ

<< <i>We also guarantee the designation...so a designation shouldn't "go down" in regrade, or there should be something done under the terms of our grading guarantee. >>



That's pretty clear cut.

Russ, NCNE

keets

i did some price checking myself, and there tends to be more coins where the MS66 value is higher than the MS65FBL price. i expect that this is a case where the MS66 price is lower than the MS65FBL price and the MS66FBL price is considerably higher than both.

one point i won't budge on, though, is that technically MS66 is the higher grade. i trust PCGS will sort things out to the satisfaction of MadMonk since it appears that HRH has almost-but-not-quite-boxed-himself-in. i see just a little wiggle room, but i think PCGS will do the right thing.

keets

actually, Russ, it'd be more clear cut if he'd have said Won't go down. shouldn't go down kind of also means might go down, doesn't it?? better yet, if he'd have said will never go down, that'd be even better, almost like a guarantee.

PerryHall

If you guys aren't careful, they will do away with the Q&A forum like they did with the OF.

tmot99

Ok, somewhere people missed in my OP that

<< <i>He tells me it was sent in in the PCGS holder. >>



I asked MadMonk before posting this thread if it was in the holder when he sent it in. I trust MadMonk that he wasn't lying to me.

The question asked by MadMonk on the Q&A was

<< <i>How could this happen? >>

That question wasn't answered. The answer came back that it shouldn't have happened. That shows that there are some QC issues to contend with at PCGS. It's a mechanical error, but I've been hearing about a lot of those lately and Ron should start to be concerned.

HRH stated that they guarantee the designation. There shouldn't be much question on this. I think that Ron should spend an extra minute or two providing useful answers than short abrupt non-answers. The Q&A is there for us to learn a little. If PCGS has reasonable explanation how this occurs, that goes a long way. Without any support, it just shows a really bad QC program. This is just one example of about 10 I've heard about in the past month or so. And I doubt that I am hearing about them all. Yes, they are mechanical errors, but those simple mechanical errors can go a long way to ruining a reputation if they get out of hand.

bushmaster8

Seems like a lot of things that "can't happen" really DO happen! And like Tmot says, we only see the tip o'the iceberg.

keets

i think that's "things that shouldn't happen" which unfortunately do.

my experiences with PCGS, the provisions of submitting coins for grading and customer service have all been good and ended as they logically should have. sometimes it's taken a phone call to ensure that we're both on the same page, sometimes it's taken another submission with better instructions. in the end i've learned that with submitting coins for grading, one of the more important things is clearly articulated communication that leaves both parties understanding what's expected. in the end it avoids confusion.

my hunch is that with some communication in this instance there will be a happy ending.

tmot99

I hope it ends well too, but that's not the intent of this post. The Q&A forum has become a useless place. For how many months did it go without an answer from anyone. HRH previously didn't answer questions that well. More of a one-line response. Ron is not any better. Why bother at all? If you ask his opinion on where gold is going to go in the next 6 months, I'm sure you'll get a good answer. But ask specifically something about PCGS or a problem that happened with a submission, you get a brush off. HRH actually handled problems pretty well, including an invite to send unlimited coins in for Presidential Review when the grading standards were at question. Granted, he didn't ever give a full breakdown of results...

keets

Tom, no offense intended, but if you see the Q&A forum as anything more than a PR tool for PCGS you're a fool.

classiccoin

this was my favorite non response and avoiding the question entirely.. that answer says to me that we dont care if the designation is misleading or right or wrong or whatever.. as long as its popular and we make money off it..




"<< Please give us your thoughts on the 1st strike controversy, word has it there is going to be a Florida class action lawsuit againt NGC for misleading consumers.
I will admit the 1st time I came accross the 1st strike deal I thought they where the 1st coins minted but after coming to this foum and learning that it has nothing to do with the order coins where minted but rather a set time limit to summit coins I thought it was very misleading. >>



Hi Jabba,

Regardless of anyone's feelings about the First Strike program, it has been a very popular and successful concept. Naturally, we'll be keeping a close eye on the proceedings in Florida.

-------------------------
Ron Guth
President
Professional Coin Grading Service"

tmot99

<< <i>Tom, no offense intended, but if you see the Q&A forum as anything more than a PR tool for PCGS you're a fool. >>



You're calling me a fool? Bring it on!

keets

Julian

I believe that PCGS will take care of this if it was sent in for a regrade in the original holder. Ron posted that the FBL should not have disappeared. My gut feeling is that they will fix it.

sweetwilliet

I asked basically the same question a few weeks ago on the Q&A forum:

Designation (dmpl)

keets

willie, following your link again leaves enoiugh room for doubt and begs the question: who exactly knows what will happen and when?? what i woulld expect from a question such as yours is an answer that either says yes or no, not my understanding or should which equate to maybe.

itsnotjustme

See the answer now.

Amended to add: If this was the case, please send it back in and we'll fix it for you.

keets

.........................and they lived Happily Ever After-----The End.

FoundingFather

This is simple. He asked how it happened and that question was ignored/not answered.

IrishMike

You have two choices, A or B. In case A we are dealing with human beings and someone made a mechanical error or choice B, the graders were unaware of the previous grade and this timed didn't think it was FBL.

So he was left with 2 answers and not having the coin in hand how could he answer the question? How would you have answered the question? This is the problem with these so called designations, some are borderline.

JRocco

<< <i>Well....did MadMonk try calling Customer Service first? No?
Coinking, who I am sure is quite busy, did answer the question...it would seem that the appropriate next step for MadMonk would be to contact customer service *now* since the question has been resolved. >>



and you are darn good at it too

Frankcoins

About 10 years ago, Bill Yates asked if PCGS would slab early copper preserved with Care...The answer was "if we will, we will, and if we won't, we won't"

tmot99

<< <i>You have two choices, A or B. In case A we are dealing with human beings and someone made a mechanical error or choice B, the graders were unaware of the previous grade and this timed didn't think it was FBL.

So he was left with 2 answers and not having the coin in hand how could he answer the question? How would you have answered the question? This is the problem with these so called designations, some are borderline. >>



Well, seems how I don't make PCGS policy it would be hard for me to make an official answer. But my answer would have been something along the lines of "It was obviously missed when the insert was made and not caught in QC. We guarantee the grade and the designation and therefore your grade should be a 66FBL. Send the coin to me with a copy of this thread and I'll take care of it. I will also look into why this type of mistake happened and see if we can implement a change to our system to make sure these type of errors happen less often, or ideally, not at all. Sorry for the mistake."

TwoSides2aCoin

a wise man once told me :

Happiness is a choice to avoid misery
while misery is a choice to avoid happiness.