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1823-The fourteenth informative picture thread covering Capped Bust Half series. Join the fun.
ldhair
Posts: 7,124 ✭✭✭✭✭
This is the fourteenth in a series of informative picture threads covering the lettered edge Capped Bust Half Dollars from 1807-36 in reverse year order.
General guidelines:
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
4. Have fun.
The 1823 sure had a lot of varieties. After a lot of looking at old auctions, I think this might be the O-104.
Please correct me as I’m probably wrong. The look of the date made me first think it was the O-111, but the reverse was wrong. I posted a couple of images at the bottom, of the dates from my coin and an O-111.
They look so much alike it confuses me.
This is also a great example of machine doubling. Many years ago Coin World imaged this coin for an article on the subject. I don’t think it was ever published.
These are the date images that confuse me. The first is my coin and the second is the O-111. Note the weak spot in the 8, the 2, and the 3 look the same on both coins. That made me think it was the same die but the dentils don’t line up the same to the date. What am I missing?
General guidelines:
1. Members can simply post pictures, or include pertinent information like Overton marriage and diagnostics, or just ask for information about their pictured coin from other members. Please keep picture file sizes within reason for dial up members.
2. Ultimately, we would like to see at least one example pictured for each Overton marriage.
3. Thread starts are only on Thursdays and Sundays.
4. Have fun.
The 1823 sure had a lot of varieties. After a lot of looking at old auctions, I think this might be the O-104.
Please correct me as I’m probably wrong.
The look of the date made me first think it was the O-111, but the reverse was wrong. I posted a couple of images at the bottom, of the dates from my coin and an O-111.They look so much alike it confuses me.
This is also a great example of machine doubling. Many years ago Coin World imaged this coin for an article on the subject. I don’t think it was ever published.
These are the date images that confuse me. The first is my coin and the second is the O-111. Note the weak spot in the 8, the 2, and the 3 look the same on both coins. That made me think it was the same die but the dentils don’t line up the same to the date. What am I missing?
Larry
0
Comments
Your double profile 1823 is indeed the 104 that you decided on. As to your question regarding the date placement...
There are a couple of differences in the dates between this and the 111. (Regretably, I don't own an example to show but more than likely someone else will post it). Anyway, on the 104 the 2 is lower than the 18_3; on 111 the date is fairly even. On the 104 the 82 is closer together than either 18 or 23; again on the 111 the date is fairly evenly spaced.
Of course, there are also difference in star placement which are easier to recognize than the date differences.
Here is my entry for the year. (obverse lightened to show detail)
O-101 The "Broken 3" Note how the 3 is heavily canted towards the right.
Thanks for starting this thread, looks good.
===================================================================
Some diagnostics for 1823 O-103 R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower edge of dentil. Star 7 is high and close to cap, and points between dentils. Date is low, with bold curled “3” leaning left. Indented centering dot on neck.
Reverse: Fine vertical, and some diagonal, die lines between eagle’s left wing and head. “A” has a defective right base which is higher than “M”. Right sides of “I” and “T” in line.
no double profile,so I guess this will be a shameless TTT for an excellent series of threads.
For me, this is one of the more difficult years because of those darn 3's.
But interestingly, the 104 that you posted looks like it could be called a broken 8,2, and 3
which I think is very telling about the die states and the date punches used that year, but I'm too dumb to know what it tells!
Just another tidbit of info for that year:
This is the Sub Design Type #4 of 1817-1825 according to Souders.
The engraver is ? for this year because Scot was ill and Kneass not yet appointed.
The variety I'm posting is the 108a. It is actually a late state of Overton 108 in which the "3" was reworked (again) in order to strengthen it. It was thought that the "3" punch broke (the 'broken 3' variety) and was eventually patched (the 'patched 3 variety). I guess this is called the 'reworked' 3.
I don't have the coin handy so I blew up the date and it's a little out of focus, but I hope you get the idea.
Also, some neat die cracks are visible.
(I'm also confused about the emission sequences, because according to Souders, the 108 came out before the 101, wierd).
<< <i>The variety I'm posting is the 108a. It is actually a late state of Overton 108 in which the "3" was reworked (again) in order to strengthen it. It was thought that the "3" punch broke (the 'broken 3' variety) and was eventually patched (the 'patched 3 variety). I guess this is called the 'reworked' 3.
(I'm also confused about the emission sequences, because according to Souders, the 108 came out before the 101, wierd).
>>
Mike,
Several different 3 punches were used for the dates on the 1823...many of which were poorly executed. Along with the one used on your 108 (and later reworked to make stronger rather than having it break) and the broken 3 used on the 101 (later patched and used on 101a and 102) there was the 3 used on 112 which is totally oversized compared to the other numbers (and 3's used on other dies) of the date.
As for emission sequence, the obverse die for your 108 was the first to bear the 1823 date--even before the last 2 varieties of 1822 (112, which used the same reverse die of 1823-108, and 113, which first used the reverse die later used for 1823-109)--it was reworked and used on your 108 "a" and the 109 before being retired.
So here is the sequence...
1823-108 using 2 new dies.
1823-108 'a' using a reworked obverse die
1822-112 using a new obverse die and the reverse die from 1823-108
1822-113 using 2 new dies
1823-109 using the obverse die from 1823 108 'a' and the reverse die from 1822-113.
<< <i>Nice DP, ain't she cute?
She is a fine looking lady.
Thanks to all for the kind words.
It was a lot of fun and I learned a great deal along the way.
Welcome to our Lettered Edge Capped Bust Half Dollar series. You are number 64 in the list of series contributors. Sorry, no prize.
Your O-105 attribution looks correct. I like your Bustie
Welcome back to the CBH series. You are correct with calling your coin O-112. Looks great!
Great job on the thread and thanks for stepping up and kicking this one off
Here is another 1823 O-103
Mozin did a great job with the characteristics of this variety.
This is the coin that somehow got into top plastic with obvious wiping lines.
Some diagnostics for 1823 O-105 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to the center of a dentil. “2” is low. “3” has a broad curled top, and the bottom is open and thin. There is a tiny indented centering dot on the neck.
Reverse: Fourth crossbar is too short, with a very large centering dot to its left. Right sides of “I” and “T” in line.
Some diagnostics for Broken 3 1823 O-101 R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. “3” leans to the right, and looks broken at center. This is the only 1823 obverse that has the “3” leaning right. (Obverse is shared with O-102.)
Reverse: “50” leans to the left. Two lower arrowheads are close, and attached to the shafts above. “I” centered under left side of “T”, and “A” has normal serifs.
Link to all Capped Bust Half Dollar series threads
Obverse: Stars 8 and 13 just 1/4 mm from cap and curl. Long thin serifs on 1 and slender curls on 23.
Reverse: Late die states show a die crack from edge below 5 that circles upward across 2 pair of olive leaves, UNITED STATES and to milling above OF. Die defcet bar between the two upper talons of the right claw.
Capped Bust Half Series
Capped Bust Half Dime Series
Some diagnostics for 1823 O-104 R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower edge of dentil. “2” is low. Indented centering dot on neck. Star 7 points to center of dentil, and to upper edge of headband. A LDS exists with a crack from star 7, to headband, then to curls. In the LDS the shield may be clashed below the ear
Reverse: Lowest crossbar extends into right wing. Large centering dot between crossbars 4 & 5 at left. “A’s” have no inside serifs on the right. “I” centered under right side of “T”.
Here is an 1823 O110, appears to be transitioning to the O110a. The die crack that leads to the ugly three has formed but the metal has yet to chip out
Some diagnostics for 1823 O-106a R2:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of dentil. In this late die state, the too tall “3” has been modified to strengthen the joint connecting the top and bottom loops. In this late die state, there is a crack joining stars 11-12-13 to the curl.
Reverse: Lower end of line 1 of stripe 5 is defective, and not connected properly to shield margin. “R” & “I” nearly touch. “I” is centered under “T”.
There are two 1823 Patched 3 die marriages. The "common" O-101a and its fraternal twin the "very scarce" O-102.
First of all, I wish all Bust Half sellers, specifically eBay sellers, would memorize the fundamental fact: ALL 1823 Broken 3's and Patched 3's have the 3 leaning to the right. On the Ugly 3 (the O-110a) and ALL of the other 1823's, the 3 does NOT lean to the right.
Secondly, I wish all Bust Half buyers would remember that the 3's on the Broken and Patched 3 die marriages lean to the right.
A SIDENOTE BEFORE I TALK ABOUT THESE COINS: Not too long ago I became frustrated with (most [?]) 1823 eBay sellers when I picked up a Bustie buyer off of my eBay sales. This was an older gentleman, 75 years old, who had decided that he wanted to---with limited funds---complete a Redbook Set of Lettered Edge Bust Halves before he passed away.
We became friends via e-mail and I managed to sell him a couple of more Busties outside the eBay system. Before we met he was buying Busties like crazy off of eBay. He wanted to share his past success with me and one day proudly sent me scans of his low grade, hairlined 1823 Broken and Patched 3's that he had purchased on eBay. You can guess it. The sellers sold him coins that were not the Broken and Patched 3's---even though they were listed on eBay as such. I, with as much grace as possible, broke the news to him about his coins---explaining about the 3's leaning to the right. It was too late for him to return coins. He thanked me and I did not hear from him for about two weeks. When he finally e-mailed me back, it was to show me a scan of a new Patched 3 that he had just won on eBay---it was in route to him. He was excited. Again, you can guess it. He forgot about the leaning 3. ...and this new coin---advertised as a Patched 3---was NOT a Patched 3.
After this he forwarded the eBay listings to me of every coin he wanted to bid on BEFORE he placed the bid. I double-checked the attribution and/or variety for him. Now he is 76 years old and his Redbook Set is as complete as he can afford it to be. (You can't buy an 1815/12 on a SSI income---he will have to skip this one.)
OK, back to business:
The O-101a Patched 3 die marriage was struck using the Obverse die 1-s2 (previously used on the O-101 Broken 3 as obverse die 1). The difference between the two dies (die 1 and die 1-s2) is that a small punch was inserted at the junction of the two halves of the 3 to strengthen the connection. A well-written, several page long, explanation of all of the 1823 3's begins on page 223 of Souders' "Bust Half Fever II."
There is no quick diagnostic identifier for the obverse. Either you have a Patched 3 (which leans to the right---don't confuse this with the Ugly 3), or you don't.
The reverse of the O-101a was struck using Reverse die A. Obviously this is the same reverse die used on the O-101 Broken 3. I can find nothing in the diagnostics that would explain why this die was only used on the O-101 die marriage and then removed from service. It must have simply worn out.
The quick diagnostic for this reverse is that the right side of the A in STATES has both serifs. (Not so on the O-102 Patched 3.)
Photo of the 1823 O-101a, R1 Patched 3:
**************
The O-102 Patched 3 die marriage.
This is the hardest Patched 3 die marriage to find. It took me a while to find my own set piece at an affordable (to me) price. Classified as a R4, it is defined as "very scarce."
The obverse was struck with Obv. die 1-s2. This was the last usage of this die.
The reverse was struck with Rev. die B. This was the only use of this die. Most O-102's have a fine die crack through ED ST. They all have a die crack joining the olive leaves.
Late Die States of this coin---struck before the die broke up---have the die crack at the legend running through ED STATES OF AM.
The top of the S in PLURBIS is filled on most specimens.
Quick identifier for this die marriage (if you cannot remember the T to I relationship):
Unlike the O-101a, the inner right serif of the A in STATES is almost completely missing.
Photos of the 1823 O-102, R4 Patched 3:
Alright, now I am really having a hard time believing that with all the 23 varieties out there this is the best we can do.
Anybody have any more wild looking 3's out there ????
How about some LDS's of the ugly and broken varieties ???
I am in the process of scanning my 1823's now and I ran across another O-104 that you might like to see.
This is the Late Die State of this die marriage.
The Overton/Parsley book says: "Some show a small crack at star 7."
I don't know what is meant by the words "some" and "small."
The LDS of this coin (not listed separately as an "a model" in the book, that is, an O-104a) has a die crack that runs from milling to star 7 to headband to curls to the eye. The LDS may show clashing of the shield below the ear.
The die crack is hard to see in my photo. I will mark its location with the red arrows. There is die clashing below the ear---it may not be easily seen in the photo.
You might want to check your O-104's to see if they are the EDS or LDS.
Photos of the Late Die State 1823 O-104, R3:
Edgar
1823 O-101, Broken 3 (leans right). An easy ID.
Right below it is the same marriage after is was "patched" - The O-101 "a model".
Edgar
O-101a Patched 3
Edgar
Some diagnostics for Ugly 3 1823 O-110a R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points to lower half of a dentil. “3” has been crudely repunched at its center. This specimen displays a double profile.
Reverse: Die dot between stripes 1 and 2 near top. Base of “A” is above base of “M”. “A” almost touches upper arrowhead. Left sides of “I” and “T” are in line.
This die marriage was struck using Obverse die 9 and Reverse die J. This was the only use of these dies. Both dies cracked and broke up while striking this die marriage.
Quick identifiers for this die marriage are:
(1) Star 7 has a small spike protruding left from the lower point. (on some LDS die states, this is missing)
(2) The 23 is larger and lower than the 18
(3) The 5 has a curved top and is higher than the 0
(4) There is a straight fine die line across inside of the C.
Photos of my 1823 O-111, R3:
***********************
The "a model" of this die marriage is identical to the O-111 except for die cracks.
(1) On the obverse there is a die crack beginning at the first four stars, gradually extending to the milling by star 5 and down across the bust to the 1.
(2) On the reverse there are two die cracks beginning at A2 that encircle the reverse, crossing at below the lowest pair of leaves and then going to the milling.
SIDENOTE: On Late Die States of the O-111a there is an additional die crack at the right stars. It runs from star 9 down across the curls to the 18. This die crack is not present on my coin.
Photos of my 1823 O-111a, R2:
Some diagnostics for 1823 O-112 R1:
Obverse: Star 1 points to the lower half of a dentil. 23 is larger and lower than 18, and 3 is extra tall. Exterior double profile is not diagnostic.
Reverse: The first line of stripe 6 extends upwards to the fourth crossbar. Right sides of I and T are in line.
This die state is not mentioned in the Overton Parsley book.
It it listed in Steve Herrman's Auction Mail Bid Price Records (AMBPR). In the AMBPR there have been 2 reported sales since 1999.
Even though Herrman suggests a R6 rarity rating, the rating may drop as more people are aware of this VERY RARE die state and begin to look for it.
The O-103'a' is the same as the O-103 except on the reverse there is a fine hairline die crack running through the letters on the reverse. (Red Arrows mark its location on my coin.)
I am not aware of the greatest known extent of this die crack. On my coin it runs from D STATES OF AM.
Photos of my 1823 O-103'a', R6?:
This is an unusal die state of this die marriage and I wanted to show it here before I put the coin on the market in the near future.
The O/P book states that on this die state the 3 has been "tampered with" and there is a die crack through stars 11 - 12 -13.
On my "special coin" there is the tampered 3, but there is NO die crack.
It is interesting to try to visualize how this die state came to exist.
Imagine that this DM was struck in 10 stages of die wear. As the die began to wear, slight changes could be seen in the coins being struck. How many exact number of pieces struck in each stage is irrelevant in my senario. (Note that the O-106 is R3 and the O-106a is R2, so, if the rarity rating is correct, there were less O-106's struck.)
Stage 1: Obv. die 5 and Rev. die F are mated to strike the EDS of the O-106.
Stages 2 thru 3: The O-106 continues to be struck. ...but the coins are not "sharp enough" to be called the EDS of this DM.
Stage 4 (or approx.): The 3 is tampered with (i.e. altered to be made stronger). Possibly a die chip developed. Experts are not sure which. Once the 3 changes, the die state is now called the O-106a. Obv. die 5 is now called Obv. die 5-s2. (AT THIS POINT there is no obverse die crack.)
Stage 5 or 6 (or approx.): A die break appears at star 13.
Stage 7 or 8 (or approx.): The die break becomes a die crack extending from star 13 to star 12. (My other O-106a set piece is this die state.)
Stage 9 (or approx.): The crack extends now from star 13 to star 12 almost to star 11.
Stage 10 (the final stage): The die crack now extends completely from star 13 to star 12 to star 11. This is the LDS as described in the O/P book. The die is now removed from usuage after striking many of these coins.
Photos of my IDS 1823 O-106a, R2 struck around Stage 4 of my senario above: (...and freed from a PCGS EF-45 holder)
A die state that is known to only a few is 23 105 w/obverse cracks. I'll see if I can find the image on Heritage. It sold in late 2000 or '01.
I need to win the Lottery first.
...and then find one available, second.
As usual, I'd be interested to know which variety this one is, and your thoughts on the grade. The actual coin is even darker, I wanted the beautiful toning to show up. When I saw this at a local coin store, I passed on it once (reluctantly), then went back and bought it. Just too irresistible!
Edit to add: I don't know much about CBHs yet, but I do want to learn a whole lot more. Based on some of the other posts, I've additional images of this coin, and would really appreciate it if some of you who are more knowledgeable could elaborate on it. Thanks!
Joe G.
Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
Nice 1823 O-108 R2.
Joe G.
Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
<< <i>Everybody, I've added some additional pics to my post a few items above, would appreciate your input. Thanks! >>
BUMP
Joe G.
Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
This is the Early Die State example of this coin with a break in the 3 showing a slight gap between the upper and lower loops of the 3. I am not sure how clear the break will be in this photo:
Photos of my 1823 O-110, R2:
Some diagnostics for Broken 3 1823 O-101 R3:
Obverse: Star 1 points between dentils. 3 leans to the right, and looks broken at center. This is the only 1823 obverse that has the 3 leaning right. (Obverse is shared with O-102.)
Reverse: 50 leans to the left. Two lower arrowheads are close, and attached to the shafts above. I centered under left side of T, and A has normal serifs.
<< <i>I've been wanting to post this one for a while now, just got a chance to shoot some pics:
As usual, I'd be interested to know which variety this one is, and your thoughts on the grade. The actual coin is even darker, I wanted the beautiful toning to show up. When I saw this at a local coin store, I passed on it once (reluctantly), then went back and bought it. Just too irresistible!
Edit to add: I don't know much about CBHs yet, but I do want to learn a whole lot more. Based on some of the other posts, I've additional images of this coin, and would really appreciate it if some of you who are more knowledgeable could elaborate on it. Thanks!
Joe G.
Great BST purchases completed with commoncents123, p8nt, blu62vette and Stuart. Great coin swaps completed with rah1959, eyoung429 and Zug. Top-notch consignment experience with Russ.
Some diagnostics for Patched 3 1823 O-101a R1:
Reverse: 50 leans to the left. Two lower arrowheads are close, and attached to the shafts above. I centered under left side of T, and A has normal serifs.
Regards,
Edgar
(...but you do it in such a nice, albeit tenancious way.)
Here's a well circulated and scratched 1823 O-109, R5+
The obverse die cracks should be easy to see. It is the LDS coin with an additional die crack from rim to star 1: