Which sellers admit that the TPG overgraded?
ccex
Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭
I'm used to reading auction descriptions and print ads that say that a particular coin is PQ for the grade - an MS-65 in an MS-64 holder. The frequency of such descriptions might lead one to believe that a third to a half of all slabbed coins should have been graded higher. Yes I've bought a "PR-66" coin thinking it was PR-64 only to see it slabbed as "MS-63, old cleaning".
I'm also used to sellers passing on a slabbed coin, saying that the TPG was generouse, and that they would be a buyer only at Graysheet bid for the next grade down. Such are the opnions of coin dealers trying to remain profitable.
When I sell a coin, I try to disclose the negative points a buyer might notice, and have lost money by my honesty, even when the difference in grades is almost insignificant. Doesn't the ANA require such disclosure by its members? Yes, I could have sold many of my coins for more if I had graded as liberally as most sellers or if I hadn't mentioned the distractions on the coin which caused me to get rid of it. However, full disclosure of a coin's condition usually doesn't help the seller maintain a profitable coin business.
I wonder how many of you can name a dealer who gains collector friends by stating in his auctions or ads that the coin just barely makes the advertised grade or might be bodybagged for cleaning, environmental damage, AT, or other not-so-obvious problems. The first dealer I met who has the courage to state that a TPG overgraded a coin he's selling is Jack Beymer, who sometimes says something like "PCGS AU-50, should have been EF-45" even though he might sell the coin for more without his honest opinion. Very few sellers of 3rd or 4th tier slabbed coins dare offer an opinion as to the coin's grade in the opinion of an educated buyer (although I've seen a few auctions of ACG coins graded MS-6x which the corageous seller states should be MS-6x minus 2).
Other than Jack Beymer, (who is known for high asking prices) who has the courage to state that the coin was entombed in an overgraded slab by a respectable TPG?
I'm also used to sellers passing on a slabbed coin, saying that the TPG was generouse, and that they would be a buyer only at Graysheet bid for the next grade down. Such are the opnions of coin dealers trying to remain profitable.
When I sell a coin, I try to disclose the negative points a buyer might notice, and have lost money by my honesty, even when the difference in grades is almost insignificant. Doesn't the ANA require such disclosure by its members? Yes, I could have sold many of my coins for more if I had graded as liberally as most sellers or if I hadn't mentioned the distractions on the coin which caused me to get rid of it. However, full disclosure of a coin's condition usually doesn't help the seller maintain a profitable coin business.
I wonder how many of you can name a dealer who gains collector friends by stating in his auctions or ads that the coin just barely makes the advertised grade or might be bodybagged for cleaning, environmental damage, AT, or other not-so-obvious problems. The first dealer I met who has the courage to state that a TPG overgraded a coin he's selling is Jack Beymer, who sometimes says something like "PCGS AU-50, should have been EF-45" even though he might sell the coin for more without his honest opinion. Very few sellers of 3rd or 4th tier slabbed coins dare offer an opinion as to the coin's grade in the opinion of an educated buyer (although I've seen a few auctions of ACG coins graded MS-6x which the corageous seller states should be MS-6x minus 2).
Other than Jack Beymer, (who is known for high asking prices) who has the courage to state that the coin was entombed in an overgraded slab by a respectable TPG?
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor
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I had a dog of a Peace dollar in a PCGS 65 holder that should've either bodybagged or been in an MS61 holder. Actually, the coin was an MS65 for the most part, except for the gigantic slash across Liberty's forehead.
Y'know how some office environments have "casual fridays" or special workdays like that? Apparently this Peace dollar went through PCGS on "blindfolded grading day".
I mentioned something to this effect in my eBay auction, then some chucklehead came along and grossly overbid, either because he didn't read my description or look at the pictures (or perhaps was observing his personal "blindfolded bidding day"). He bid solid 65 money for it, as I recall. Which made me cringe, 'cause I knew he wasn't gonna be happy when he got the coin. Sure enough, he got the coin and began to weep and moan via email- not blaming me- he accepted responsibility for his mistake- but in the end I took pity on him. He wanted to return it but I told him to just keep it and refunded half his money. I didn't wanna see the thing again.
I do not expect it from the sources I buy from. It literally would be impossible for anyone to make a living as a seller in this manner--how could any seller pay, say, 10% below greysheet for a holdered coin in MS63, then proceed to advertise it as "really a low-end 63--in fact, 62 is really more like it." It just doesn't make sense, because if the coin is PQ, there is no way they are going to get 64 money for the 63 coin (at least not often) to balance things out.
It's an imperfect world. This sort of idealism would seem to me to be tantamount to professional suicide. And I'm not a coin dealer.
All I ask for
<< <i>Running down the product you're selling is counterintuitive the entire concept of selling--at least selling for profit.
I do not expect it from the sources I buy from. It literally would be impossible for anyone to make a living as a seller in this manner--how could any seller pay, say, 10% below greysheet for a holdered coin in MS63, then proceed to advertise it as "really a low-end 63--in fact, 62 is really more like it." It just doesn't make sense, because if the coin is PQ, there is no way they are going to get 64 money for the 63 coin (at least not often) to balance things out.
It's an imperfect world. This sort of idealism would seem to me to be tantamount to professional suicide. And I'm not a coin dealer. >>
I wonder if this selling approach affects repeat business. Maybe one doesn't need repeat business to make a living?
<< <i>I'm man enough to admit that I've only been man enough to admit it...once.
I had a dog of a Peace dollar in a PCGS 65 holder that should've either bodybagged or been in an MS61 holder. Actually, the coin was an MS65 for the most part, except for the gigantic slash across Liberty's forehead.
Y'know how some office environments have "casual fridays" or special workdays like that? Apparently this Peace dollar went through PCGS on "blindfolded grading day".
I mentioned something to this effect in my eBay auction, then some chucklehead came along and grossly overbid, either because he didn't read my description or look at the pictures (or perhaps was observing his personal "blindfolded bidding day"). He bid solid 65 money for it, as I recall. Which made me cringe, 'cause I knew he wasn't gonna be happy when he got the coin. Sure enough, he got the coin and began to weep and moan via email- not blaming me- he accepted responsibility for his mistake- but in the end I took pity on him. He wanted to return it but I told him to just keep it and refunded half his money. I didn't wanna see the thing again. >>
If it was a large $$$ item, you should have "grade guaranteed" it. I did that to a coin once. I was happy.
As for the OP's question.... I have seen Ira Stein, Mark Feld, and Russ, among others, be honest on the coin no matter what the label said (ie....PCGS/NGC/ANACS coin was labelled higher than they stated they would grade it ... in their listings)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Another is Empire (also of Scottsdale -- could be the same company or somehow related for all I know). Same thing with telling what they believe is the truth about actual grade and even mention of problems not noted on slabs (like "light cleaning not noted on this SEGS AU-50 slab"). Their web site: Empire
Here are a couple of my recent listings. The pics are gone now, but the narratives give my opinions. - Preussen
link 1
link 2
Which sellers admit that the TPG has overgraded based on the standards of that TPG?
The thing I find sort of disturbing is that the whole purpose of a TPG was supposed to be that you had some confidence in the grade. IMHO, part of the problem is the minute grading levels (e.g., MS-68 vs. 69 vs. 70, or even AU-53 vs. AU-55) and the disproportionate price difference between these nuanced grades. IMO, when you get to levels that fine, you might as well be blindfolded.
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions
Looking for Denmark 1874 20-Kroner. Please offer.
I don't put a slabbed coin in my case at a show if I do not agree with the grade. Either it is off to a grading service for an upgrade or it has been liquidated.
I once had a raw key date coin (good cond) in an ebay auction with a problem (counting mark) that was not obvious on the scan or without magnification (for certain ANACS would have "detailed" it). I accurately described the problem as best I could, discounted the coin, marked it "make offer" and got an offer way over what I would have taken for it. I even had this description of the prob written on the holder (for show customers).
Parker
all of a coins possible detriments when he auctions
or sells a coin.It is such integrity that builds confidence
in a dealer over the long term.
Camelot
<< <i>The quadry of how to describe a crappy coin is exactly why many reputable dealers wholesale these coins instead of selling them directly. The crappy coins then work their way down the Wannabe Dealer foodchain. >>
Just because a coin is overgraded doesn't necessarily mean that it's "crappy". It might be very nice for its true grade and it may be worth close to the grade shown on the label.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I do agree that most sellers will not admit a TPG overgraded but they love to say the TPG undergraded.
Why step over the dollar to get to the cent? Because it's a 55DDO.
<< <i>Apparently this Peace dollar went through PCGS on "blindfolded grading day". >>
They only do that on days that end in "Y".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Obscurum per obscurius
<< <i>Also, since the grading companies use their own standards, stating that a grading company overgraded it could cause a potential liability. >>
A liability for who? Most of the time when someone says a TPG overgraded, it's an opinion and I don't think there's anything wrong with opinions. It also seems fairly common knowledge that the grading standards at TPGs change often enough to make resubmissions worthwhile.
<< <i><< Also, since the grading companies use their own standards, stating that a grading company overgraded it could cause a potential liability. >>
A liability for who? >>
You need to bear in mind that's coming from a dealer and consider it accordingly.
Russ, NCNE
My friend James at EarlyUS.com always has given his grading opinion, even if lower than that assigned by a TPG. Here's a current example straight off of his web site: overgraded colonial I do the same thing, although I try by best to avoid buying overgraded slabbed material.
A liability for who? Most of the time when someone says a TPG overgraded, it's an opinion and I don't think there's anything wrong with opinions. It also seems fairly common knowledge that the grading standards at TPGs change often enough to make resubmissions worthwhile. >>
You DO remember the lawsuits from a Florida grading company concerning "opinions" about their grading accuracy?
<< <i>
<< <i>Running down the product you're selling is counterintuitive the entire concept of selling--at least selling for profit.
I do not expect it from the sources I buy from. It literally would be impossible for anyone to make a living as a seller in this manner--how could any seller pay, say, 10% below greysheet for a holdered coin in MS63, then proceed to advertise it as "really a low-end 63--in fact, 62 is really more like it." It just doesn't make sense, because if the coin is PQ, there is no way they are going to get 64 money for the 63 coin (at least not often) to balance things out.
It's an imperfect world. This sort of idealism would seem to me to be tantamount to professional suicide. And I'm not a coin dealer. >>
I wonder if this selling approach affects repeat business. Maybe one doesn't need repeat business to make a living? >>
I'm talking about PCGS/NGC/ANACS holdered coins. A dealer saying that an NTC-graded MS65 Morgan is really only MS63 is no feat of high morality--it's just a given that they're two grades off.
But if you're suggesting that you, as a dealer, consistently tell your customers that your PCGS-graded MS64 coin is really only MS63, I don't think repeat business is an issue. Because you will be out of business before long--unless, of yourse, you bought that MS64 coin for MS62 money.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Running down the product you're selling is counterintuitive the entire concept of selling--at least selling for profit.
I do not expect it from the sources I buy from. It literally would be impossible for anyone to make a living as a seller in this manner--how could any seller pay, say, 10% below greysheet for a holdered coin in MS63, then proceed to advertise it as "really a low-end 63--in fact, 62 is really more like it." It just doesn't make sense, because if the coin is PQ, there is no way they are going to get 64 money for the 63 coin (at least not often) to balance things out.
It's an imperfect world. This sort of idealism would seem to me to be tantamount to professional suicide. And I'm not a coin dealer. >>
I wonder if this selling approach affects repeat business. Maybe one doesn't need repeat business to make a living? >>
I'm talking about PCGS/NGC/ANACS holdered coins--PCGS was held up as the example in the first post. A dealer saying that an NTC-graded MS65 Morgan is really only MS63 is no feat of high morality--it's just a given that they're two grades off. I wouldn't thank them for their "honesty," that's like praising a man for not robbing a bank.
Anyway, if you're suggesting that you, as a dealer, consistently tell your customers that your PCGS-graded MS64 coins are really only MS63, I don't think repeat business will be an issue for long. Because you will eventually be out of business--unless, of yourse, you bought that MS64 coin for MS62 money.
<< <i>I'm talking about PCGS/NGC/ANACS holdered coins. A dealer saying that an NTC-graded MS65 Morgan is really only MS63 is no feat of high morality--it's just a given that they're two grades off.
But if you're suggesting that you, as a dealer, consistently tell your customers that your PCGS-graded MS64 coin is really only MS63, I don't think repeat business is an issue. Because you will be out of business before long--unless, of yourse, you bought that MS64 coin for MS62 money.
I haven't heard anyone suggest that PCGS consistently overgrades. Where are you getting this?
The issue is when the occasional overgrading happens.
<< <i>
<< <i>A liability for who? Most of the time when someone says a TPG overgraded, it's an opinion and I don't think there's anything wrong with opinions. It also seems fairly common knowledge that the grading standards at TPGs change often enough to make resubmissions worthwhile. >>
You DO remember the lawsuits from a Florida grading company concerning "opinions" about their grading accuracy? >>
I'm not familiar with this case but I wasn't suggesting TPG employees give contrary opinions of their company's grades. The issue is whether dealers can offer opinions about TPG grades.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm talking about PCGS/NGC/ANACS holdered coins. A dealer saying that an NTC-graded MS65 Morgan is really only MS63 is no feat of high morality--it's just a given that they're two grades off.
But if you're suggesting that you, as a dealer, consistently tell your customers that your PCGS-graded MS64 coin is really only MS63, I don't think repeat business is an issue. Because you will be out of business before long--unless, of yourse, you bought that MS64 coin for MS62 money.
I haven't heard anyone suggest PCGS coins are consistently overgraded. Where are you getting this?
The issue is when the occasional overgrading happens. >>
I'm not saying PCGS consistently overgrades their coins--that's nuts. I'm with you on the occasional overgrading.
But as every coin is either high end, low end or smack in the middle in terms of the assigned grade, in theory a third of the holdered coins by any top TPG are either low end or else overgraded an entire grade--correct? With that I'm suggesting that a dealer who touts 33% of his top-TPG holdered coins as being low end or else overgraded, may have a tough go of it.
Tell me if this logic is flawed; as I said I am not a dealer. But I do know I rarely encounter dealers who volunteer outright that their PCGS/NGC/ANACS coins--those that are are occasionally low end or overgraded--are anything less than smack in the middle.
They CAN....but a lot of dealers and collectors with families to feed are pretty hesitant these days
ANA Stuppler
-- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows
My Ebay Auctions