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Which sellers admit that the TPG overgraded?

ccexccex Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭
I'm used to reading auction descriptions and print ads that say that a particular coin is PQ for the grade - an MS-65 in an MS-64 holder. The frequency of such descriptions might lead one to believe that a third to a half of all slabbed coins should have been graded higher. Yes I've bought a "PR-66" coin thinking it was PR-64 only to see it slabbed as "MS-63, old cleaning".

I'm also used to sellers passing on a slabbed coin, saying that the TPG was generouse, and that they would be a buyer only at Graysheet bid for the next grade down. Such are the opnions of coin dealers trying to remain profitable.

When I sell a coin, I try to disclose the negative points a buyer might notice, and have lost money by my honesty, even when the difference in grades is almost insignificant. Doesn't the ANA require such disclosure by its members? Yes, I could have sold many of my coins for more if I had graded as liberally as most sellers or if I hadn't mentioned the distractions on the coin which caused me to get rid of it. However, full disclosure of a coin's condition usually doesn't help the seller maintain a profitable coin business.

I wonder how many of you can name a dealer who gains collector friends by stating in his auctions or ads that the coin just barely makes the advertised grade or might be bodybagged for cleaning, environmental damage, AT, or other not-so-obvious problems. The first dealer I met who has the courage to state that a TPG overgraded a coin he's selling is Jack Beymer, who sometimes says something like "PCGS AU-50, should have been EF-45" even though he might sell the coin for more without his honest opinion. Very few sellers of 3rd or 4th tier slabbed coins dare offer an opinion as to the coin's grade in the opinion of an educated buyer (although I've seen a few auctions of ACG coins graded MS-6x which the corageous seller states should be MS-6x minus 2).

Other than Jack Beymer, (who is known for high asking prices) who has the courage to state that the coin was entombed in an overgraded slab by a respectable TPG?
"Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity" - Hanlon's Razor

Comments

  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm man enough to admit that I've only been man enough to admit it...once. image

    I had a dog of a Peace dollar in a PCGS 65 holder that should've either bodybagged or been in an MS61 holder. Actually, the coin was an MS65 for the most part, except for the gigantic slash across Liberty's forehead.

    Y'know how some office environments have "casual fridays" or special workdays like that? Apparently this Peace dollar went through PCGS on "blindfolded grading day".

    I mentioned something to this effect in my eBay auction, then some chucklehead came along and grossly overbid, either because he didn't read my description or look at the pictures (or perhaps was observing his personal "blindfolded bidding day"). He bid solid 65 money for it, as I recall. Which made me cringe, 'cause I knew he wasn't gonna be happy when he got the coin. Sure enough, he got the coin and began to weep and moan via email- not blaming me- he accepted responsibility for his mistake- but in the end I took pity on him. He wanted to return it but I told him to just keep it and refunded half his money. I didn't wanna see the thing again.

    Explore collections of lordmarcovan on CollecOnline, management, safe-keeping, sharing and valuation solution for art piece and collectibles.
  • gyocomgdgyocomgd Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭
    Running down the product you're selling is counterintuitive the entire concept of selling--at least selling for profit.

    I do not expect it from the sources I buy from. It literally would be impossible for anyone to make a living as a seller in this manner--how could any seller pay, say, 10% below greysheet for a holdered coin in MS63, then proceed to advertise it as "really a low-end 63--in fact, 62 is really more like it." It just doesn't make sense, because if the coin is PQ, there is no way they are going to get 64 money for the 63 coin (at least not often) to balance things out.

    It's an imperfect world. This sort of idealism would seem to me to be tantamount to professional suicide. And I'm not a coin dealer.
    All I ask for
    image
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Running down the product you're selling is counterintuitive the entire concept of selling--at least selling for profit.

    I do not expect it from the sources I buy from. It literally would be impossible for anyone to make a living as a seller in this manner--how could any seller pay, say, 10% below greysheet for a holdered coin in MS63, then proceed to advertise it as "really a low-end 63--in fact, 62 is really more like it." It just doesn't make sense, because if the coin is PQ, there is no way they are going to get 64 money for the 63 coin (at least not often) to balance things out.

    It's an imperfect world. This sort of idealism would seem to me to be tantamount to professional suicide. And I'm not a coin dealer. >>

    I wonder if this selling approach affects repeat business. Maybe one doesn't need repeat business to make a living?
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,556 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'm man enough to admit that I've only been man enough to admit it...once. image

    I had a dog of a Peace dollar in a PCGS 65 holder that should've either bodybagged or been in an MS61 holder. Actually, the coin was an MS65 for the most part, except for the gigantic slash across Liberty's forehead.

    Y'know how some office environments have "casual fridays" or special workdays like that? Apparently this Peace dollar went through PCGS on "blindfolded grading day".

    I mentioned something to this effect in my eBay auction, then some chucklehead came along and grossly overbid, either because he didn't read my description or look at the pictures (or perhaps was observing his personal "blindfolded bidding day"). He bid solid 65 money for it, as I recall. Which made me cringe, 'cause I knew he wasn't gonna be happy when he got the coin. Sure enough, he got the coin and began to weep and moan via email- not blaming me- he accepted responsibility for his mistake- but in the end I took pity on him. He wanted to return it but I told him to just keep it and refunded half his money. I didn't wanna see the thing again. >>




    If it was a large $$$ item, you should have "grade guaranteed" it. I did that to a coin once. I was happy.

    As for the OP's question.... I have seen Ira Stein, Mark Feld, and Russ, among others, be honest on the coin no matter what the label said (ie....PCGS/NGC/ANACS coin was labelled higher than they stated they would grade it ... in their listings)

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,507 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can answer YES to this thread. It's sort of why I have voiced strong opinions against NGC's grading when it comes to $5 Indians (1908-1929). It is also the reason many of my auctions never reach the PCGS price guide level while I witness inferior coins being sold at astronomical prices. It goes to show you that people believe what they read ! I've seen excellent feedback left for some really DOGGY coins I'd watched on ebay...image some things just defy logic.
  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,510 ✭✭✭✭✭
    GR Coins (Scottsdale) describes slabbed coins that are overgraded by offering an assessment of what they think the true grade is. They send out a catalog every month or so and have a web site: GR Coins

    Another is Empire (also of Scottsdale -- could be the same company or somehow related for all I know). Same thing with telling what they believe is the truth about actual grade and even mention of problems not noted on slabs (like "light cleaning not noted on this SEGS AU-50 slab"). Their web site: Empire
  • PreussenPreussen Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭
    I'm not a dealer, but I do occasionally sell darkside coins on ebay. I try to describe my coins accurately, and if I think they're overgraded, I say so.

    Here are a couple of my recent listings. The pics are gone now, but the narratives give my opinions. - Preussen

    link 1
    link 2
    "Illegitimis non carborundum" -General Joseph Stilwell. See my auctions
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,590 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Since there is no ironclad grading standard for coins it may be better to ask the question as follows:

    Which sellers admit that the TPG has overgraded based on the standards of that TPG?

    All glory is fleeting.
  • All I can honestly say is that this has never come up for me. Not because all my slabbed coins have been graded correctly, necessarily, but more likely because at the time I was selling them I didn't know any better. In retrospect, I have a couple of coins in my collection that are more weakly-struck than the TPG grade would indicate.

    The thing I find sort of disturbing is that the whole purpose of a TPG was supposed to be that you had some confidence in the grade. IMHO, part of the problem is the minute grading levels (e.g., MS-68 vs. 69 vs. 70, or even AU-53 vs. AU-55) and the disproportionate price difference between these nuanced grades. IMO, when you get to levels that fine, you might as well be blindfolded.
    If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.

    -- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows


    My Ebay Auctions
    image
  • USCGCraigUSCGCraig Posts: 1,008 ✭✭
    The dealer I used to work for in Seattle would tell potential buyers if he thought the coin was over-graded. Very refreshing.
    Coast Guard Craig

    Looking for Denmark 1874 20-Kroner. Please offer.
  • I don't know any dealers who tell potential buyers a certified coin in their stock is overgraded. Seems like a contradiction in goals.

    I don't put a slabbed coin in my case at a show if I do not agree with the grade. Either it is off to a grading service for an upgrade or it has been liquidated.

    I once had a raw key date coin (good cond) in an ebay auction with a problem (counting mark) that was not obvious on the scan or without magnification (for certain ANACS would have "detailed" it). I accurately described the problem as best I could, discounted the coin, marked it "make offer" and got an offer way over what I would have taken for it. I even had this description of the prob written on the holder (for show customers).
    You can't win an arguement with a crazy.

    Parker
  • ConnecticoinConnecticoin Posts: 13,090 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The quadry of how to describe a crappy coin is exactly why many reputable dealers wholesale these coins instead of selling them directly. The crappy coins then work their way down the Wannabe Dealer foodchain.
  • BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    In addition to those mentioned is Coinlt, he also mentions

    all of a coins possible detriments when he auctions

    or sells a coin.It is such integrity that builds confidence

    in a dealer over the long term.
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,720 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The quadry of how to describe a crappy coin is exactly why many reputable dealers wholesale these coins instead of selling them directly. The crappy coins then work their way down the Wannabe Dealer foodchain. >>



    Just because a coin is overgraded doesn't necessarily mean that it's "crappy". It might be very nice for its true grade and it may be worth close to the grade shown on the label.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • Recently I ebay'd a couple of PCI & ACG coins (only because they were part of a large collection we bought). I believe they were slabbed MS65, I advised in my description that I believed they were MS63 at best.
  • GooberGoober Posts: 980 ✭✭✭
    My local dealer is great, but because I live in a small area I have to purchase from others if I want anything "special". So here's my plug for Carl W. I've only purchased one coin from him, but out of all the internet buys I've completed he has been the only truthful one when it comes to a slabbed coin. He sold me an ANACS 84-O MS65DMPL Morgan way below what it could have sold for had he sold it based on the grade. He honestly said it was more of an PL coin to him. It has the most beautiful rose colored DMPL cameo to me, and will stay with me 'til death do us part.

    I do agree that most sellers will not admit a TPG overgraded but they love to say the TPG undergraded.
    Prost!

    Why step over the dollar to get to the cent? Because it's a 55DDO.
  • FrankcoinsFrankcoins Posts: 4,571 ✭✭✭
    The Bluesheet, which is firm bids for the most ugly examples imaginable, already sets a floor price for low-end material. Also, since the grading companies use their own standards, stating that a grading company overgraded it could cause a potential liability.
    Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,720 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Apparently this Peace dollar went through PCGS on "blindfolded grading day". >>



    They only do that on days that end in "Y". image

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • shirohniichanshirohniichan Posts: 4,992 ✭✭✭
    Karl Stephens and Alpine Numismatics regularly give their unvarnished opinions, even if it means a coin in an "MS61" holder is really AU55 in their opinions.
    image
    Obscurum per obscurius
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Also, since the grading companies use their own standards, stating that a grading company overgraded it could cause a potential liability. >>

    A liability for who? Most of the time when someone says a TPG overgraded, it's an opinion and I don't think there's anything wrong with opinions. It also seems fairly common knowledge that the grading standards at TPGs change often enough to make resubmissions worthwhile.
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 14,010 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I just sold an NTC-65 Morgan on eBay that I said in the description I didn't think was a 65.
    When in doubt, don't.
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭


    << <i><< Also, since the grading companies use their own standards, stating that a grading company overgraded it could cause a potential liability. >>

    A liability for who? >>



    You need to bear in mind that's coming from a dealer and consider it accordingly.

    Russ, NCNE
  • numismanumisma Posts: 3,877 ✭✭✭✭

    My friend James at EarlyUS.com always has given his grading opinion, even if lower than that assigned by a TPG. Here's a current example straight off of his web site: overgraded colonial I do the same thing, although I try by best to avoid buying overgraded slabbed material.
  • OldnewbieOldnewbie Posts: 1,425 ✭✭
    Dick Osburn will point out overgraded as well as undergraded coins in his descriptions.
  • FrankcoinsFrankcoins Posts: 4,571 ✭✭✭
    >>

    A liability for who? Most of the time when someone says a TPG overgraded, it's an opinion and I don't think there's anything wrong with opinions. It also seems fairly common knowledge that the grading standards at TPGs change often enough to make resubmissions worthwhile. >>



    You DO remember the lawsuits from a Florida grading company concerning "opinions" about their grading accuracy?
    Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
  • Andy from Angeldees bought an overgraded (NGC MS 68) 1996-W Roosevelt dime from me and priced it on his website accordingly...he had 2 listed, both MS 68, but the price differences reflected the overgrading on the one I sold him...so I trust him to be fair and honest with his certified coins.
  • gyocomgdgyocomgd Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Running down the product you're selling is counterintuitive the entire concept of selling--at least selling for profit.

    I do not expect it from the sources I buy from. It literally would be impossible for anyone to make a living as a seller in this manner--how could any seller pay, say, 10% below greysheet for a holdered coin in MS63, then proceed to advertise it as "really a low-end 63--in fact, 62 is really more like it." It just doesn't make sense, because if the coin is PQ, there is no way they are going to get 64 money for the 63 coin (at least not often) to balance things out.

    It's an imperfect world. This sort of idealism would seem to me to be tantamount to professional suicide. And I'm not a coin dealer. >>

    I wonder if this selling approach affects repeat business. Maybe one doesn't need repeat business to make a living? >>



    I'm talking about PCGS/NGC/ANACS holdered coins. A dealer saying that an NTC-graded MS65 Morgan is really only MS63 is no feat of high morality--it's just a given that they're two grades off.
    But if you're suggesting that you, as a dealer, consistently tell your customers that your PCGS-graded MS64 coin is really only MS63, I don't think repeat business is an issue. Because you will be out of business before long--unless, of yourse, you bought that MS64 coin for MS62 money. image
    image
  • gyocomgdgyocomgd Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Running down the product you're selling is counterintuitive the entire concept of selling--at least selling for profit.

    I do not expect it from the sources I buy from. It literally would be impossible for anyone to make a living as a seller in this manner--how could any seller pay, say, 10% below greysheet for a holdered coin in MS63, then proceed to advertise it as "really a low-end 63--in fact, 62 is really more like it." It just doesn't make sense, because if the coin is PQ, there is no way they are going to get 64 money for the 63 coin (at least not often) to balance things out.

    It's an imperfect world. This sort of idealism would seem to me to be tantamount to professional suicide. And I'm not a coin dealer. >>

    I wonder if this selling approach affects repeat business. Maybe one doesn't need repeat business to make a living? >>



    I'm talking about PCGS/NGC/ANACS holdered coins--PCGS was held up as the example in the first post. A dealer saying that an NTC-graded MS65 Morgan is really only MS63 is no feat of high morality--it's just a given that they're two grades off. I wouldn't thank them for their "honesty," that's like praising a man for not robbing a bank.

    Anyway, if you're suggesting that you, as a dealer, consistently tell your customers that your PCGS-graded MS64 coins are really only MS63, I don't think repeat business will be an issue for long. Because you will eventually be out of business--unless, of yourse, you bought that MS64 coin for MS62 money. image >>

    image
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'm talking about PCGS/NGC/ANACS holdered coins. A dealer saying that an NTC-graded MS65 Morgan is really only MS63 is no feat of high morality--it's just a given that they're two grades off.
    But if you're suggesting that you, as a dealer, consistently tell your customers that your PCGS-graded MS64 coin is really only MS63, I don't think repeat business is an issue. Because you will be out of business before long--unless, of yourse, you bought that MS64 coin for MS62 money. image >>

    I haven't heard anyone suggest that PCGS consistently overgrades. Where are you getting this?

    The issue is when the occasional overgrading happens.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>A liability for who? Most of the time when someone says a TPG overgraded, it's an opinion and I don't think there's anything wrong with opinions. It also seems fairly common knowledge that the grading standards at TPGs change often enough to make resubmissions worthwhile. >>

    You DO remember the lawsuits from a Florida grading company concerning "opinions" about their grading accuracy? >>

    I'm not familiar with this case but I wasn't suggesting TPG employees give contrary opinions of their company's grades. The issue is whether dealers can offer opinions about TPG grades.
  • gyocomgdgyocomgd Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I'm talking about PCGS/NGC/ANACS holdered coins. A dealer saying that an NTC-graded MS65 Morgan is really only MS63 is no feat of high morality--it's just a given that they're two grades off.
    But if you're suggesting that you, as a dealer, consistently tell your customers that your PCGS-graded MS64 coin is really only MS63, I don't think repeat business is an issue. Because you will be out of business before long--unless, of yourse, you bought that MS64 coin for MS62 money. image >>

    I haven't heard anyone suggest PCGS coins are consistently overgraded. Where are you getting this?

    The issue is when the occasional overgrading happens. >>



    I'm not saying PCGS consistently overgrades their coins--that's nuts. I'm with you on the occasional overgrading.

    But as every coin is either high end, low end or smack in the middle in terms of the assigned grade, in theory a third of the holdered coins by any top TPG are either low end or else overgraded an entire grade--correct? With that I'm suggesting that a dealer who touts 33% of his top-TPG holdered coins as being low end or else overgraded, may have a tough go of it.

    Tell me if this logic is flawed; as I said I am not a dealer. But I do know I rarely encounter dealers who volunteer outright that their PCGS/NGC/ANACS coins--those that are are occasionally low end or overgraded--are anything less than smack in the middle.
    image
  • FrankcoinsFrankcoins Posts: 4,571 ✭✭✭
    Q]I'm not familiar with this case but I wasn't suggesting TPG employees give contrary opinions of their company's grades. The issue is whether dealers can offer opinions about TPG grades. >>




    They CAN....but a lot of dealers and collectors with families to feed are pretty hesitant these days


    ANA Stuppler
    Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
  • It would seem (to me, at least) counterproductive to opine that a TPG slabbed coin is overgraded. Not because you want to sell that particular coin (which you do, obviously, even though you want to be honest about it), but because every time you talk down a TPG-slabbed coin, you undermine your customers' confidence in the TPGs. And when you do that, I think you run the risk of having a customer say, "Why should I pay that much for a coin? How can I be sure it is what he says it is, when obviously there's such a wide variance of opinion?". In short, you're basically creating a situation where your slabbing fees might as well have been thrown into a bonfire. Isn't that true?
    If you haven't noticed, I'm single and miserable and I've got four albums of bitching about it that I would offer as proof.

    -- Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows


    My Ebay Auctions
    image

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