Mark McGwire does not deserve to be in the hall!

baseballjeff · November 28, 2006 12:03AM

Anyone else agree? If we let this clown in than we'll haev to let that Barry Bonds guy in.

ARGH!

Jeff

doncherry · November 28, 2006 12:06AM

official thread already started

mikeschmidt · November 28, 2006 12:08AM

MLB did not enforce any rule. I indict MLB, not McGwire explictly.

Unfortunately, unless you are willing to exclude an entire era of ballplayers -- then there is little that can be done. Could you not just as easily argue that perhaps Cal Ripken took steroids to improve his health and healing time from small, nagging injuries and that, but for those steroids, he would not have had his streak, his consistency, his performance, etc.

The entire era is clouded. Although suspicion is much higher on some rather than others, I frown upon MLB in general, and not players who happened to play during this time. Just remember -- over half of the players who have been officially caught are pitchers, and most of the players caught have been marginal players. You can't indict individuals -- you have to indict the entire era....

carew4me · November 28, 2006 12:26AM

Knuckles · November 28, 2006 12:30AM

yikes, that guy is about ready to burst..

VintageJeff · November 28, 2006 12:48AM

Kind of looks like McGwire.

julen23 · November 28, 2006 12:55AM

is that ex-brave pitcher terry forester?

hhehe ha ahaha

Julen

MikeyLikesIt · November 28, 2006 12:57AM

<< MLB did not enforce any rule. I indict MLB, not McGwire explictly.

Unfortunately, unless you are willing to exclude an entire era of ballplayers -- then there is little that can be done. Could you not just as easily argue that perhaps Cal Ripken took steroids to improve his health and healing time from small, nagging injuries and that, but for those steroids, he would not have had his streak, his consistency, his performance, etc.

The entire era is clouded. Although suspicion is much higher on some rather than others, I frown upon MLB in general, and not players who happened to play during this time. Just remember -- over half of the players who have been officially caught are pitchers, and most of the players caught have been marginal players. You can't indict individuals -- you have to indict the entire era.... >>

Bingo!

GlynRParson · November 28, 2006 1:14AM

<< MLB did not enforce any rule. I indict MLB, not McGwire explictly.

Unfortunately, unless you are willing to exclude an entire era of ballplayers -- then there is little that can be done. Could you not just as easily argue that perhaps Cal Ripken took steroids to improve his health and healing time from small, nagging injuries and that, but for those steroids, he would not have had his streak, his consistency, his performance, etc.

The entire era is clouded. Although suspicion is much higher on some rather than others, I frown upon MLB in general, and not players who happened to play during this time. Just remember -- over half of the players who have been officially caught are pitchers, and most of the players caught have been marginal players. You can't indict individuals -- you have to indict the entire era....

I could not agree more

Estil · November 28, 2006 2:28AM

As I said before, you're going to need much more convincing evidence to sway me over to the "no Big Mac in the HOF" side. He freely admits using what was at the time a perfectly legal nuturtional supplement, and the fact that that pre-Madonna Jose Canseco accused him and half his teammates of using 'roids just doesn't hold up in the credibility department. And as for that Congressional hearing, the fact McGwire basically chose to use the Fifth Amendment does NOT in any way shape or form imply guilt and it would be wrong to assume guilt. Any first year pre-law student can tell you that.

mikeschmidt · November 28, 2006 2:36AM

<< the fact McGwire basically chose to use the Fifth Amendment does NOT in any way shape or form imply guilt and it would be wrong to assume guilt. Any first year pre-law student can tell you that.

>>

Estil - this is not a court of law, and guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is not a standard that the HOF voting baseball writers are necessarily held to. Please do not confuse any legal admission or lack thereof as to having any particular sway as to whether or not baseball writers should or should not believe that McGwire took steroids.

I think McGwire will eventually be voted in, but not in the first year or two. Baseball writers believe he took steroids. The public believes he took steroids. The voters for the HOF, thus, are going to hold that against him (whether they should or not...). Eventually, though, I think most will come to the realization that it is the MLB that blindly turned its eye, more than anything else, that will allow McGwire entrance. Because you cannot single out individuals without, implicitly, indicted the entire era of baseball.

Axtell · November 28, 2006 2:42AM

Where does this 'they didn't enforce any specific rule' regarding steroids come from?

Steroids are a federally banned substance - just like, say, cocaine is. While there is no rule specifically stating a player cannot use cocaine, there is one stating using any banned substances (like cocaine or steroids) are punishable.

The problem is, of course, proof. While we all know deep down that McGwire juiced, how do you keep someone out on speculation alone? Bonds is a different case - he's on record admitting to (albeit 'unknowingly') taking steroids. Sosa and McGwire? No proof other than widespread speculation.

But if we want to keep the whole lot of them out, why are we just stopping at the hitters? Pitchers gain just as much (if not more) of an advantage from using than hitters, so shall we also exclude the great pitchers of the era like Clemens as well?

It's a slippery slope to walk down, handing out widespread indictments like that.

Alfonz24 · November 28, 2006 2:42AM

<< And as for that Congressional hearing, the fact McGwire basically chose to use the Fifth Amendment does NOT in any way shape or form imply guilt and it would be wrong to assume guilt. Any first year pre-law student can tell you that.

>>

At the same hearings, Palmeiro flat out denied (with a waving finger) using steriods. Several months later he was suspended on a sample that was several months old.

But back to the topic, I believe that Mac should eventually be voted in to the HOF. I think the steriods issue is overblown in regards to strength. It is used more for recooperation of injury and fatigue. It still comes down to hand/eye coordination when hitting.

My .02 worth!

storm888 · November 28, 2006 3:43AM

Let him in.

But, ONLY if you let Pete Rose in, too.

bigfische · November 28, 2006 4:51AM

<< the fact that that pre-Madonna Jose Canseco accused him

>>

I Never knew Canseco would later go on to become Madonna, thats amazing!

(prima donna)

theczar · November 28, 2006 5:19AM

look at his body and his stats in his rookie season. with gwynn and ripken locks they will make mcgwire wait, but for long.

FavreFan1971 · November 28, 2006 5:34AM

I read an article yesterday from a HOF writer (voter). He is not going to vote for any players of this era on their first ballot. There is a big difference between a first ballot HOFer or a multiple ballot HOFer.

I like that.

Munson15 · November 28, 2006 5:43AM

What about the numbers, does he even have the stats to make it in? Sure 583 HR but 263 ba...

Brian48 · November 28, 2006 6:02AM

I was listening to WEEI this morning and this one sport writer (forgot this name) was saying that he was NOT going to vote for McGwire.

To add, in addition to all the other users that have been associated with this issue (ie. Bonds, Palmiero, etc..), he was going to lump in players like Clemens and Randy Johnson, whom he admitted does not have one shred of anecdotal evidence one way or the other. His reasoning is that even if they are completely innocent, they are guilty of falling in line with the Player's Union and could have spoken out about the problem when they had the chance. Instead, they just went along with the crowd, thereby they do not get a voite.

I think this is unfair, but this may be the cop out that a lot voters will be taking with various players from this era (evidence or not).

MikeyLikesIt · November 28, 2006 6:12AM

<< I read an article yesterday from a HOF writer (voter). He is not going to vote for any players of this era on their first ballot. >>

Does that include Gwynn? Was he not from this "era"? If so, that's silly. I actually have wondered if Gwynn will break Seaver's record of highest percentage of votes (98.84%)

Axtell · November 28, 2006 6:23AM

I don't get the whole 'I'm not going to vote them in on the first ballot' thing.

If a guy's hall worthy, he's hall worthy. If he's not, he's not.

They should make guys eligible for one year, 5 years after they retire. Didn't get in? Too bad.

None of this making them wait for years and years crap...I mean, they certainly didn't play any games in that time after they retired, so how can a guy suddenly make it after years and years of waiting?

bigfische · November 28, 2006 6:29AM

<< I don't get the whole 'I'm not going to vote them in on the first ballot' thing.

If a guy's hall worthy, he's hall worthy. If he's not, he's not.

They should make guys eligible for one year, 5 years after they retire. Didn't get in? Too bad.

None of this making them wait for years and years crap...I mean, they certainly didn't play any games in that time after they retired, so how can a guy suddenly make it after years and years of waiting? >>

I agree with this completely, they get to vote for up to ten people so what are the chances that ten Hall worthy people are going to retire in the same season? Not very good in my opinion.

Knuckles · November 28, 2006 6:41AM

One year they should just induct all of the misfits in all at once including Pete Rose to just get it over with.

NewJerseyMeatHook · November 28, 2006 10:54AM

One year they should just induct all of the misfits in all at once including Pete Rose to just get it over with.

Amen.

80sJunkie · November 28, 2006 10:58AM

<<None of this making them wait for years and years crap...I mean, they certainly didn't play any games in that time after they retired, so how can a guy suddenly make it after years and years of waiting?>>

Thats because it is like politics the writers that vote change or the old wont vote any guy his first time voters and so on. plus you have fan clubs who actually campaign to some of the writers to try to get there votes. There is a BIG MAC for the hall group here in california who actually get toghether and write letters to some of the writers who get to vote. I like macgwire but I feel that is pathetic.
A players stats are there stats there should really be some stadards to get in not does the voter like you or not

Munson15 · November 28, 2006 12:33PM

Amen!!! There should be a committee who elects the players into the Hall of Fame. Made up of former players, managers, writers, a nice mix and either you are in or you are out. Goose Gossage is still waiting to this day and the man hasn't picked up a ball since I was 10....and my son is 13!!!!!!!! (well you get the point)

Carew29 · November 28, 2006 12:38PM

Heck i threw out all of my McGwire stuff when he dummied up it front of Congress and took all to the dump. Hopefully i created a shortage of McGwire cards in the marketplace.

braves72078 · November 28, 2006 1:02PM

I question whether any player from the "juice" era should be worthy of induction. I think many of those that were "bending" the rules did more to set the game back than Rose did and he is not in?????

Just my .02

Bill

Carew29 · November 29, 2006 3:51AM

I see your .02 cents and raise you a nickel.

jgarci11 · December 28, 2006 7:24PM

Man, all of you are just BS-ing! You know you still have your Big Mac stuff that you bought from Don on the Shop at Home Network 8 years ago! The longer Mcgwire is not elected to the hall, the more popular his cards become! THEN if enough time passes, the issue will center on Palmiero and Eventually Bonds. Should these guys get in, the case against Mcgwire starts to look weak, fast. Since enough hype has surrounded the controversy, more people will demand his cards. So in essence, who ever is upset about Mcgwire should realize that Players have been cheating in baseball since the beginning. It is horrible that they cheat, yet because we cheer for them,we are a big part of the problem. I think that what Mark Mcgwire did in 1998 helped me in my life back then. Things were not going good for me, and his homerun race (whether creatine, hgh, or Deca inspired) helped my mind to feel better in the face of the setbacks I was encountering. Amid all the pressure, Mcgwire hit those homers and worked hard to embrace Sosa, the Maris family and all of America in the event. Sometimes Leaders must use a bad thing in order to build solidarity and national greatness. Mcgwire did what he did and instead of seeking fame, fortune, and self-centered attention, he strived to help millions of people feel good with his bat, just as Cal Ripken did with his back!

Carew29 · December 30, 2006 9:22AM

I would like to reply to jdarci---I moved up here to Vancouver,WA, 2 years ago. After unpacking my stuff and hearing Big Mac dummy up in front of Congress, I promptly grabbed all of my McGwire stuff(cards included) and threw them out in the dumpster. So if you feel like digging through a year or more of trash at the local dump here, be my guest. Hopefully i have created a shortage of McGwire cards. Should be interesting now that the government has the "pee" list. I may be cleaning out even more of my collection.

RipublicaninMass · December 30, 2006 9:29AM

<< Heck i threw out all of my McGwire stuff when he dummied up it front of Congress and took all to the dump. Hopefully i created a shortage of McGwire cards in the marketplace.

>>

I am sure there were no refractors in there so I think you really crearted a shortage
>sarcasm on

80sJunkie · December 31, 2006 1:37AM

<<Man, all of you are just BS-ing! You know you still have your Big Mac stuff that you bought from Don on the Shop at Home Network 8 years ago! The longer Mcgwire is not elected to the hall, the more popular his cards become! THEN if enough time passes, the issue will center on Palmiero and Eventually Bonds. Should these guys get in, the case against Mcgwire starts to look weak, fast. Since enough hype has surrounded the controversy, more people will demand his cards. So in essence, who ever is upset about Mcgwire should realize that Players have been cheating in baseball since the beginning. It is horrible that they cheat, yet because we cheer for them,we are a big part of the problem. I think that what Mark Mcgwire did in 1998 helped me in my life back then. Things were not going good for me, and his homerun race (whether creatine, hgh, or Deca inspired) helped my mind to feel better in the face of the setbacks I was encountering. Amid all the pressure, Mcgwire hit those homers and worked hard to embrace Sosa, the Maris family and all of America in the event. Sometimes Leaders must use a bad thing in order to build solidarity and national greatness. Mcgwire did what he did and instead of seeking fame, fortune, and self-centered attention, he strived to help millions of people feel good with his bat, just as Cal Ripken did with his back! >>

Well said JG

I whole heartedly agree. If it wasn't for the summer of 98 I'd probably be the guy with a closet full of cards from my childhood and thats it. Instead in 98 i was 21 and got right back into the hobby and never turned back.
The main reason is like JG said Mcgwire embraced what he was doing and we loved him for it. Not like a certain Barry who doesn't care what we think he just wants to be number one and thats why we hate barry.
Whatever your feelings are on this one cant deny what was the summer of 98. It brought me back to the hobby and me and my dad alot closer. As we watched Mac and Sosa I heard so many great stories of 61 and mantle and maris chasing each other.

So lets stop bashing Mac for im sure we were all watching and enjoying what he did with his bat no matter the outcome

ajw · December 31, 2006 5:32AM

<< 
Steroids are a federally banned substance - just like, say, cocaine is. While there is no rule specifically stating a player cannot use cocaine, there is one stating using any banned substances (like cocaine or steroids) are punishable.
>>

I assume you'd like to see Paul Molitor removed from the Hall of Fame.

ajw · December 31, 2006 5:43AM

<< Goose Gossage is still waiting to this day and the man hasn't picked up a ball since I was 10....and my son is 13!!!!!!!! (well you get the point) >>

Your son was born when you were 9 years old?

Estil · January 5, 2007 8:36AM

<< 

<< the fact that that pre-Madonna Jose Canseco accused him

>>

I Never knew Canseco would later go on to become Madonna, thats amazing!

(prima donna)

>>

Well, they he did date Madonna at one time!

MiniMaster · January 6, 2007 4:56PM

Yes that is the best point made so far. Look back to the 98 season. How many of those bashing McGwire now were very much into the home run chase then. Nobody was to interested in placing any blame then? Why no questioning how McGwire's muscle mass had grown to such preportions then? Like MLB had no knowledge of what was going on? Please..... how gullable are you people bashing McGwire? This is not a single person issue by a long shot. MLB did nothing to curb what was happening for good reason. Baseball was in serious trouble with the fans and so they just let it happen. All these home runs were helping the game regain it's popularity with the fans and MLB loved it. When the media got a hold of this steroid business they spread blame on individuals instead of MLB and many fans turned on the exposed players without due process. What a sham. Have you all forgotten McGwire hit 49 home runs in his rookie season! He wasn't very pumped up then! This whole steriod business would have just gone away had MLB took the bulls by the horn and dealt with it a long time ago! You want to blame? Blame MLB.

math4cards · January 6, 2007 5:07PM

It also would have went away had McGwire had the balls Giambi has. I haven't heard one thing about Giambi since he admitted his illegal substance use. Had McGwire, or Sosa (who on top of steroid allegations, uses corked bats too), or Palmeiro, or even Bonds came forward in the beginning - they'd be hailed as baseball heroes. Not only would they be free to chase records - they'd be able to instruct the youngsters of today about the dangers of steroids. Instead McGwire hid - he denied all allegations - tried moving past the subject - and took himself right out of baseball. Yes, he deserves to be inducted because he is one of the top home run hitters of all time and one of the most beloved players to play the game. Not to mention he bashed over 500 home runs, had a couple of seasons over 60 homers, and yes, showed his incredible promise when he belted the 49 homers as a rookie. We all remember the bash brothers - we all remember the 1918esque world series against the Dodgers. For those of you who saw 8 men out...I had McGwire circled, I had Eckersley circled, I had Canseco circled...

ToppsCo1lector · January 6, 2007 5:12PM

<< I don't get the whole 'I'm not going to vote them in on the first ballot' thing.

If a guy's hall worthy, he's hall worthy. If he's not, he's not.

They should make guys eligible for one year, 5 years after they retire. Didn't get in? Too bad.

None of this making them wait for years and years crap...I mean, they certainly didn't play any games in that time after they retired, so how can a guy suddenly make it after years and years of waiting? >>

Weren't you the same guy who argued that Craig Biggio would eventually get in but shouldn't(and you don't believe he will) on the first ballot? Hmm.

McGwire deserves to be in the HOF. Patrick Mac said it best on Cold Pizza a few days ago "Either the whole era gets an asterick or no one does, it's impossible to do a case by case evaluation when many more than we know were using".

grote15 · January 6, 2007 5:29PM

Weren't you the same guy who argued that Craig Biggio would eventually get in but shouldn't(and you don't believe he will) on the first ballot? Hmm.

Topps,

He's going by a different handle now (after being banned, of course).

math4cards · January 6, 2007 5:35PM

Who thought Biggio would get in? First he's never going to retire. Secondly there isn't a spot in the hall of fame for getting hit by pitches - otherwise open up another spot for Mr. Don Baylor.

grote15 · January 6, 2007 5:42PM

Who thought Biggio would get in? First he's never going to retire. Secondly there isn't a spot in the hall of fame for getting hit by pitches - otherwise open up another spot for Mr. Don Baylor.

Don Baylor and Biggio for the HOF in the same sentence?

It's almost laughable how little you know about baseball.

Axtroll rides again!

ToppsCo1lector · January 6, 2007 6:02PM

<< Weren't you the same guy who argued that Craig Biggio would eventually get in but shouldn't(and you don't believe he will) on the first ballot? Hmm.

Topps,

He's going by a different handle now (after being banned, of course).

>>

Really? That's funny stuff, I just got back home after traveling since the week of Thanksgiving. All up and down the East coast from Schenectady NY to Atlanta and more than a few places in between. Good times good times. Not suprising he got banned.

ToppsCo1lector · January 6, 2007 6:10PM

<< Who thought Biggio would get in? First he's never going to retire. Secondly there isn't a spot in the hall of fame for getting hit by pitches - otherwise open up another spot for Mr. Don Baylor. >>

Well lets see;
Soon to have 3000 hits
400+ stolen bases
1100+ RBIs
nearly 300 home runs(he's at 281 right now with a strong indication that he'll pass 300 this next season if his career trends continue)
9th alltime with 637 doubles

math4cards · January 6, 2007 6:12PM

You make a valid point...but it was your buddy grote that challenged it...Biggio makes Ozzie Smith look like Dan Pasqua.

math4cards · January 6, 2007 6:24PM

There are so many worthy candidates out there. And the line that divides who should get in and who shouldn't get in gets thinner everyday. They let Koufax in because of his incredible dominance before injuries derailed his career...yet they won't let Mattingly in under the same conditions.

They let Ozzie Smith get in because of his incredible defense, but you know Vizquel isn't getting in...yet his defense is also incredible, he has also won double digit gold glove awards and he has more hits, home runs and a higher batting average than Ozzie.

Tony Gwynn is a no brainer, but Rose had more hits - far more hits - and yet he gambled on his team so stats don't matter in his case.

Then you have a handful of guys with 400 or more home runs that have no chance to get in like your Kingmans and your Darrell Evans, and your Andre Dawsons.

It's so subjective - yeah the guy had 400 home runs but he batted .230...well yeah that guy only batted .260 but he could play defense...and yeah that guy had over 4200 hits but didn't he bet on baseball?

Don't get me started on football...they have a LIMIT on how many players can get in each year...this past year there are as many as 3 players that should have gotten in as well...but I guess we don't want to overload the Hall of Fame...we don't want to bum rush Canton. There shouldn't be a limit - if players deserve to get in...then they should or shouldn't based on ability - not on if they reached the max for the year. Sorry Thurman Thomas - you had incredible numbers - but we already have 6.

Mark McGwire does not deserve to be in the hall!

Comments