<< <i> Because someone admits they cheated they are to be scorned, but when they LIE and wont admit it we should look the other way and pretend they are innocent ?
I for one have far more respect for those who admitted they cheated, no matter what the circumstances in which they admitted it, than a guy who goes in front of congress and the American people and continues to run from the issue and deny. >>
How do you know he's lying? Are you privy to some insider information that you saw McGwire take steroids?
So tell me, how much respect do you have for Pete Rose? He admitted his wrong doing, would you admit him to the hall?
<< <i>I for one have far more respect for those who admitted they cheated, no matter what the circumstances in which they admitted it, than a guy who goes in front of congress and the American people and continues to run from the issue and deny. >>
I said the same somewhere in this thread and still feel the same way.
"I'm not going to go into the past and talk about my past."
"No habla Engles"
Translation:
I'm not going to commit perjury.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i> Because someone admits they cheated they are to be scorned, but when they LIE and wont admit it we should look the other way and pretend they are innocent ?
I for one have far more respect for those who admitted they cheated, no matter what the circumstances in which they admitted it, than a guy who goes in front of congress and the American people and continues to run from the issue and deny. >>
How do you know he's lying? Are you privy to some insider information that you saw McGwire take steroids?
So tell me, how much respect do you have for Pete Rose? He admitted his wrong doing, would you admit him to the hall? >>
Yes I would admit Pete Rose into the HOF.
And I know McGwire is lying because I have a brain and can see clear as day like anyone else with something other than empty space above their shoulders can.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Why do people so desperately want McGwire and others to admit wrong doing?
Let me ask those who do: do you forgive Pete Rose? He's admitted wrongdoing, is he hall eligible now? >>
"To err is human; to forgive is divine." - Alexander Pope
That about sums it up.
In general, people are decent, and will be far more willing to accept someone should they admit their faults. We all make mistakes, some more severe than others. To make mistakes and shy away from admitting them will always rub peoples good nature and ability to forgive the wrong way.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
McGwire never failed a test because steroid testing wasn't in effect when he was a player. He had a chance under oath to say that he never did steroids, rather he just didn't answer the question. He is not as bad as Raffy (he lied), but he is worse than Canseco. At least Jose admitted to it.
McGwire doesn't owe anything to the fans, but he could try to be a little better than Pete Rose and at least tell the truth. I'm sure McGwire wants to get back into baseball in come capacity. He won't be able to do it until he comes clean. No one wants to hire him.
When he gets elected into the Hall, he won't be able to hide. He will be grilled with questions about steroids. If he doesn't come clean, his acceptance speech is going to be a joke. He will be mocked by everyone.
<< <i>McGwire never failed a test because steroid testing wasn't in effect when he was a player. He had a chance under oath to say that he never did steroids, rather he just didn't answer the question. He is not as bad as Raffy (he lied), but he is worse than Canseco. At least Jose admitted to it.
McGwire doesn't owe anything to the fans, but he could try to be a little better than Pete Rose and at least tell the truth. I'm sure McGwire wants to get back into baseball in come capacity. He won't be able to do it until he comes clean. No one wants to hire him.
When he gets elected into the Hall, he won't be able to hide. He will be grilled with questions about steroids. If he doesn't come clean, his acceptance speech is going to be a joke. He will be mocked by everyone. >>
If McGwire didn't take steriods, NOW is the time to say it. He knows the cameras are going to be rolling and there's a huge cloud hanging over his head.
I will give him serious props if the question is asked and he responds with, "No habla Engles."
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
If it wasn't a big deal, and it was within the rules of baseball...then why would McGwire refuse to speak about it? Because he knows it was wrong. I don't know if there are many people in the world that reallly think McGwire took nothing, or that Sosa only took Flintstone vitamins(as he said).
This isn't court, a player doesn't have to be proven guilty without a doubt. I can proudly say that I called my brother within two minutes after Palmeiro waved his finger, and said that he was flat out lying. I knew first hand, because the adamant denial routine got me out of trouble quite often while sitting in the principal's offfice. Then the FBI pointed out that pointing the finger was a tell tale signal for lying. It is pretty evident as well why McGwire was not willing to talk.
It is pretty evident McGwire took them, but that really isn't the question everyone is asking.
<< <i>McGwire never failed a test because steroid testing wasn't in effect when he was a player. He had a chance under oath to say that he never did steroids, rather he just didn't answer the question. He is not as bad as Raffy (he lied), but he is worse than Canseco. At least Jose admitted to it. >>
Jose admitted to it not to shed light on the problem but to sell a book. He knew he had no chance of getting into the hall, so of course he said it. Do you think its coincidence that Canseco waited until he was out of baseball to say he used steroids?
<< <i>McGwire doesn't owe anything to the fans, but he could try to be a little better than Pete Rose and at least tell the truth. I'm sure McGwire wants to get back into baseball in come capacity. He won't be able to do it until he comes clean. No one wants to hire him. >>
Rose has admitted to betting on baseball...and yet he's still a pariah. People wanting McGwire to 'come clean' care less about his 'fessing up' than it is their chance to say 'a ha! I KNEW he cheated!'
<< <i>When he gets elected into the Hall, he won't be able to hide. He will be grilled with questions about steroids. If he doesn't come clean, his acceptance speech is going to be a joke. He will be mocked by everyone. >>
What, he's not already being mocked now? Who isn't crushing this guy in the media?
<< <i>If McGwire didn't take steriods, NOW is the time to say it. He knows the cameras are going to be rolling and there's a huge cloud hanging over his head. >>
He doesn't owe an explanation about his past to anyone. Whether he used or not is nobody's business. Why people are so fascinated and begging him to come clean is beyond me. Seems as if these are the same people who love to cheer when famous people fall down.
He's a first ballot HoFer, even if the retarded writers want to play moral police and keep him out. To say he's not a hall of famer is just ridiculous.
Fergie Jenkins got busted for marijuana and is in the HOF. Marijuana is illegal in the United States.
Mike Schmidt has admitted using amphetamines (they're illegal in the United States) in the 1970's, and also said he may have used steriods if they had been around while he was active, and he's in the HOF
Not to mention the countless others who probably also used something (possibly/probably illegal in the United States) while playing to keep themselves going or help their performance, with no proof or evidence ever appearing.
Mark McGwire might have used "something" (maybe illegal), but we don't know what or when. There's just NO evidence either way, except the Andro, which was legal in baseball and legal in the United States Justice System. So let's keep him out of the HOF
Sounds to me like we need to remove Fergie's and Schmidty's busts from the HOF, and while we're at it, start investigating EVERY OTHER HOFer and HOF eligible/worthy player ever! If any current HOFers turn up as having done ANYTHING ILLEGAL, TAKE THEIR BUSTS OUT OF THE HOF!
FORGET THAT!!!!!
MARK MCGWIRE DESERVES TO BE INDUCTED INTO THE HALL OF FAME DAMN IT, SO DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Without steroids, McGwire is a lifetime .250 hitter with about 450 homers, maybe, and little else to argue for his HOF induction. He may have "saved" baseball with his and Sosa's juice-tainted Home Run Chase, but that shouldn't be reason to induct him into the Hall.
However, his stats are what they are, and I think he will probably get in eventually, just not for a couple of years. He certainly won't be a "first ballot" HOFer, that much is clearly evident at this point, especially with Ripken and Gwynn on the ballot.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Without steroids, McGwire is a lifetime .250 hitter with about 450 homers, maybe, and little else to argue for his HOF induction. He may have "saved" baseball with his and Sosa's juice-tainted Home Run Chase, but that shouldn't be reason to induct him into the Hall. >>
How do you know that? How can you stand there and make those kind of judgements, when you don't even know for sure he used steroids?
<< <i>However, his stats are what they are, and I think he will probably get in eventually, just not for a couple of years. He certainly won't be a "first ballot" HOFer, that much is clearly evident at this point. >>
His not being a first ballot HoFer, when these same moronic voters who heralded the McGwire/Sosa HR chase are now chastising McGwire and saying 'you may not pass!!!'
How do you know that? How can you stand there and make those kind of judgements, when you don't even know for sure he used steroids?
I suppose you also believe O.J. Simpson was innocent, too.
His not being a first ballot HoFer,
He'll be lucky to get 50% of the vote this year.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Huh? What's with the OJ reference? Please stay on topic.
Tell me how you KNOW he would have only hit 450 HRs, and how you KNOW he didn't take steroids. If you KNOW he took steroids (i.e. saw him take it) why isn't the national media interviewing you?
Tell me how you KNOW he would have only hit 450 HRs, and how you KNOW he didn't take steroids. If you KNOW he took steroids (i.e. saw him take it) why isn't the national media interviewing you?
I can't possibly debate you if you even think for a second that Mark McGwire wasn't using steroids.
It's a moot point anyway, he won't get in this year, and probably not for a couple of years at least, and I agree with that. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion, however misguided.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Huh? What's with the OJ reference? Please stay on topic.
Actually, the O.J. reference is very relevant here, because it illustrates that a person can be correctly perceived as guilty even if they are not actually convicted of the act. I doubt anyone other than you and Tony LaRussa believe McGwire is clean.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I suppose you also believe O.J. Simpson was innocent, too. >>
Actually, that's an excellent point.
Unless they say otherwise, we must assume one is 100% innocent, regardless of the overwhelming evidence against him?
Guess so... Heck, OJ is probably playing golf as I type this.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
A no vote for McGwire For this voter, Cardinal's sins are unforgivable on election day By Bob Ryan, Globe Columnist | November 28, 2006
The time has come, and the answer is no.
Mark McGwire may get into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the first ballot, but it won't be unanimous. I know one vote he's not getting.
This is the voting hot potato we've been waiting for, and now it's here with the release of the ballot yesterday . A while back, I would have said "dreading." But I dread no longer. I'm comfortable with my decision. If someone wants to vote for him, fine. But I'm not going to do it. I'll also wager that more people are thinking my way than are thinking the other way. I doubt that he'll get in, at least this time.
To those who will ask, "Where were you in '98, when he was hitting baseballs into places baseballs had never been hit before?" I answer, "Watching and enjoying." I was sent to St. Louis for that Labor Day weekend when he was breaking the Roger Maris record of 61 home runs. I enjoyed it all. I told people it was the most fun event of its type I had ever been around.
It was a weekend celebration of baseball. The Cardinals were playing the Reds and the Cubs, and none of them were in a pennant race. It was all about Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa, and mostly about Mark McGwire, who had come home from a road trip with 59 home runs.
What I loved about that weekend was the way everyone was into it. McGwire was into it. Sosa was into it. Tony La Russa was into it. Reds manager Jack McKeon was so into it he proclaimed that he would deviate from his normal policy and pitch to McGwire, regardless of circumstance. Cubs skipper Jim Riggleman was into it, stating, "We have a fascination with power." We sure did.
Everything was temporarily subservient to McGwire's quest for the record. Aside from McGwire's at-bats, I remember nothing about the games themselves. Did the Cardinals win or lose? I'd have to look it up. I truly have no idea.
What I do know is that Mark McGwire hit No. 60 off Cincinnati lefthander Dennis Reyes , No. 61 off Chicago veteran righthander Mike Morgan , and the record-breaking No. 62 off Chicago righthander Steve Trachsel . I remember the strange nature of No. 62, a low liner that, at a measured 341 feet, was McGwire's shortest of the season. I remember him almost missing first base. I remember him being greeted by his son. I remember him embracing Sosa. I remember him going into the stands to be congratulated by the Maris family. I remember even the most cynical members of the press being enormously moved and entertained by the whole thing.
Steroids were not an issue.
That seems difficult to believe now; I realize that. I had read about Associated Press writer Steve Wilstein seeing the bottle of androstenedione in McGwire's locker, but I paid that story little attention. I just didn't follow up on it. Sorry. I do recall being struck by the size of McGwire's biceps and forearms during one of his news conferences, but I attributed that to weight training and went onto other matters.
Call that approach to the issue naive, and I won't argue. Call it ignorant, and I won't argue. Call it inexcusable and what am I supposed to say? It probably was. I'm neither cynical nor suspicious by nature, except when it comes to things people say. My long years of experience in this business have taught me that owners, administrators, coaches, and players far too frequently either lie or find nothing wrong with being laughably disingenuous. I must report to you that in the world of sport, honesty and candor are not exactly valued traits.
Anyway, Mark McGwire hit his 70 homers in 1998 and his 65 in 1999 before beginning his quick decline, which we came to learn was almost undoubtedly due to the harm he had done his body by use of something that turned out to be very bad for him. I don't know what he was on, but it became clear to me, and many others, that he was on something sinister.
I don't know for sure when he started going on the juice, but if you look at his record, you notice a dramatic increase in home run frequency in 1995, when he hit 39 homers in 317 at-bats, thus reversing a decline dating from 1992. You can either take it at face value that he just got healthy that year, or you can put 2 and 2 together. I opt for the arithmetic.
We will never know how many home runs he hit that would have died at the warning track absent the extra oomph provided by the juice. 10? 30? 50? 100? It's impossible to say. I know that some voters will do an estimate and say, "OK, we'll subtract that total from the 583 he hit and, hey, he still would have hit (fill in the blank) 450, 500, however many. That's a lot of homers, and I'm voting for him." And that's their call. It's just not going to be mine.
That glorious weekend in St. Louis eight years ago? I now feel I was used. And I'm sorry, but I cannot get past that sad day in March 2005 when Mark McGwire appeared before the House Government Reform Committee and became the first American citizen to invoke the 4 1/2 Amendment. Asked if he had used performance-enhancing substances, he said, "My lawyers have advised me that I cannot answer these questions without jeopardizing my friends, my family, and myself."
And then there was this classic: "I'm not here to talk about the past," he whimpered.
Well, Mark, if you can't bring yourself to talk about your past, I don't see any reason why we should waste time evaluating it. Tony Gwynn, Cal Ripken, Jim Rice, Goose Gossage, Dave Concepcion, and perhaps one or two others will get my vote. You won't.
Bob Ryan is a Globe columnist. His e-mail address is ryan@globe.com.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Where was Bob Ryan's outrage during the steroid era? Where was his call for testing when Brady Anderson was hitting 50 HRs? Where was his outrage then?
For him to sit there in judgement when he sat in silence as it was happening (and reaping the benefits of it), then, to come back, and rip McGwire for not testing positive for anything, is rubbish.
As far as the OJ reference, please tell me what evidence you have that would convict McGwire in a court of law if he went on trial and steroid use was the accusation?
<< <i>I don't know what he was on, but it became clear to me, and many others, that he was on something sinister. >>
So in addition to being a sports writer, Bob's found time to get his degree in medicine and become a doctor? Wow! What a guy! I had no idea he was so talented.
This holier than thou attitude these arrogant writers want to bestow on those they deem 'unworthy' is simply sickening.
<< <i>its not a holier than thou perspective, it's more like hindsight is 20/20
I thought it was a decent article and it probably reflects a substantial majority of the sportswriters out there. >>
Come on, do you honestly believe that?
Does anyone really believe these sportswriters, who are closer to the athletes than any one else, didn't notice huge differences from the end of one season the start of the next spring training? How many writers, or baseball people in general said ANYTHING?
Now they want to hold up their hands and say 'hold on fellas. You can't go in'? What a crock.
To those who failed drug tests, or admitted they used steroids: you're out. That's you Mr. Bonds. You too Mr. Sheffield. Mr Giambi, outta here. Raffy? Sit the F down.
Should we give Raffy a pass? I mean, his steroid use was also during the same time as all the other alleged major leaguers. The finding of steroids was from an older sample, am I right? Don't we assume that a high percentage of major leaguers were juicing during that time? Weren't there other older samples and not just Raffy's? Was Raffy targeted because of his actions in the hearing? There are lots of questions that will never be answered....and essentially if you give one guy a pass from that era, should you give them all a pass?
Was it an era of steroids that was MLB's fault and not the players? I suppose if you really wanted to throw blame it should be on both MLB AND the Players Association because from what I understand, the bargaining contract limited testing. Both their faults for allowing such a negotiation.
All these guys are going to be known for being part of the "steroid era". Will that be punishment enough? And yes, Im including even Bonds(as much as I cant stand him), Giambi, Sheffield, etc...I would imagine that there will be a certain shame to players from this era, whether they juiced or not. Sorry Ripken and Griffey. (Assuming neither juiced)
If McGwire gets a free pass, then so should everyone. Just because Bonds, Giambi, and Sheff testified, in a sealed federal trial mind you, that means they are not allowed in the Hall? People are doing jail time for not disclosing how they got the information.
But since McGwire wasn't there to "talk about the past" and Sosa forgot how to speak English, they are 100% innocent and get a free pass.
That's the definition of hyprocritical.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
McGwire, Bonds, Giambi, and Sheffield never failed a drug test. It is totally hypocritical to say McGwire should be given a free pass and the others should be kept out. The latter three were supposed to have immunity and privacy in exchange for their testimony. At least they admitted to something.
The "I don't want to focus on the past" crap is a weasal move. That is why McGwire is lumped in with the rest. Pete Rose is still on the fringes because he shows no remorse for betting on baseball. People were ready to forgive him until he started doing book signings at casinos.
<< <i>McGwire, Bonds, Giambi, and Sheffield never failed a drug test. It is totally hypocritical to say McGwire should be given a free pass and the others should be kept out. The latter three were supposed to have immunity and privacy in exchange for their testimony. At least they admitted to something. >>
Sheffield and Bonds admitted under oath they took steroids - too bad for them, they cheated, they admitted as such, they're done. McGwire did none of those things - he should be in.
<< <i>The "I don't want to focus on the past" crap is a weasal move. That is why McGwire is lumped in with the rest. Pete Rose is still on the fringes because he shows no remorse for betting on baseball. People were ready to forgive him until he started doing book signings at casinos. >>
Here's what is the definition of hypocritical - people in this thread saying McGwire 'should fess up to what he did!', then they'd say it's ok for him to be in, when these same people still want to hold Rose out, even though he's admitted to what he's done. THAT is the definition of hypocritical.
People clamoring for McGwire to admit what he's done has NOTHING to do with them wanting to see McGwire come clean - and EVERYTHING to do with their perverse hunger to see greats of the game crumble (as long as it's a division rival, mind you).
<< <i>Here's what is the definition of hypocritical - people in this thread saying McGwire 'should fess up to what he did!', then they'd say it's ok for him to be in, when these same people still want to hold Rose out, even though he's admitted to what he's done. THAT is the definition of hypocritical. >>
What Rose did is completely different. He flat out denied it for years only to come clean when his book came out. He should display some remorse for what he did, and then and only then, should he be considered into the Hall.
<< <i>People clamoring for McGwire to admit what he's done has NOTHING to do with them wanting to see McGwire come clean - and EVERYTHING to do with their perverse hunger to see greats of the game crumble (as long as it's a division rival, mind you). >>
What in the world are you talking about? Division rivals? Uh, McGwire is retired so I don't know where you are trying to go with that.
And just for clarification, McGwire saying he did OR didn't would cast him in a better light than where he is now, in my opinion.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
I gotta say, youve been providing me with some good laughs in this thread.
Had McGwire played in NY you would be saying he is a first class cheater and liar who wouldnt come clean AND a one dimentional player who doesnt deserve a second thought for the HOF.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Yup, guys who tell the truth are worse than guys that avoid telling the truth. Bonds, Giambi, Sheff, and McGwire were all under oath. Only one decided to weasal out.
1. I do not think Mcgwire will get more than 45% of the vote.
2. Pete Rose is not eligible to be voted for because he has been banned from baseball. He isn't on the ballot for reasons that take more than a few sentences to explain. It does not matter whether a voter wants to vote for him or not. This applies to no one else in the discussion.
3. The only HOF worthy aspect of Mcgwire's game was his power, which is the main skill improved by steroids. If he excelled in more phases of the game, the issue may be trickier.
4. I am not a fan of Barry Bonds, but he was a 3 time MVP before steroids, and after he was like Gretzky on... well, steroids.
5. The legal system of the US is not the same as the process for voting for the Baseball HOF. We do not need to "prove" anything in a court of law. Being inducted into the HOF is not a right of every citizen, nor is not voting for someone a violation of their rights.
6. Eventually many players from this era will get in to the HOF. Some will have used steroids, others not. Some will have used steroids and people will not have had the perception that they did.
7. This era is tainted for a slew of reasons that will not be sorted out, in perception, for generations to come.
8. With all of this steroid use with all of the big stars, how much greater does this make Griffey Jr appear in his prime. Stack his numbers out there against the other non-users and see how legendary he looks.
9. I have wondered how successful a pro sports league would be in say, Amsterdam, where all drugs are legal for use by the players. The biggest fastest humans all taking whatever they want. Would it be kind of interesting since at least we knew it was a level playing field for all? Like the "All Drug Olympics" or something?
10. Are we doing the same thing today with Pujols as we did with the Mcgwires and Sosas and Bonds? Looking the other way and assuming he is more like Ruth than he is like Bonds? The players are always going to be one step ahead if they want to be. Pujols sure looks really big compared to his first few years. Like George Bush says "Fool me once, shame on you. But...uh..you can't... um...you can't fool a fool ...er... you can't fool a fool again...
I am buying and trading for RC's of Wilt Chamberlain, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Bob Cousy! Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Isn't it strange how the perception of Mcgwire has shifted, almost completely? There was no more beloved figure in sports for those few years, and now even the picture the media uses of him in the stories is a stoic, almost angry looking portrait.
I am buying and trading for RC's of Wilt Chamberlain, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Bob Cousy! Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
<< <i>Isn't it strange how the perception of Mcgwire has shifted, almost completely? There was no more beloved figure in sports for those few years, and now even the picture the media uses of him in the stories is a stoic, almost angry looking portrait. >>
That's what happens when you have a dark cloud hanging over your head
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i> That's what happens when you have a dark cloud hanging over your head >>
No dark cloud for McGwire, nothing that rabid 'fans' and an overzealous media has put there.
He owes no one any explanation of his past, nor any apology of any sort. Those who demand he give one simply need to see greats of the game fall in order to feel better about their own miserable, pathetic lives. These are the same people who get off on watching Springer and say 'my life sucks but it's better than this guy's!'
<< <i>No dark cloud for McGwire, nothing that rabid 'fans' and an overzealous media has put there.
He owes no one any explanation of his past, nor any apology of any sort. Those who demand he give one simply need to see greats of the game fall in order to feel better about their own miserable, pathetic lives. These are the same people who get off on watching Springer and say 'my life sucks but it's better than this guy's!' >>
That's your opinion, which may be shared by a very small minority, but I see it differently.
I would have more respect and see him in a better light if he gave a straight answer. As of right now, he's lower than Rose ever was.
Yes I did or no I did not. It's really not that difficult.
By saying "I'm not here to talk about the past" implies (at least to me and a majority of baseball fans) that he did take steroids.
Until he does admit either way, that cloud will forever be over his head.
Agree to disagree, don't flame.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Shows like Springer, all the celebrity rags are popular because of people's need to feel their lives are better than the celebrities they worship.
People saying that McGwire needs to 'come clean' and then he'll be 'forgiven' are just nuts. People said the same thing about Rose, then said 'well...he'd didn't reall MEAN that apology!' For the clowns who rail for McGwire to admit to steroid use, all they'll say is 'well, he did come clean, but it too him too long' or some other BS excuse to keep him down.
Where is the outrage over Mike Schmidt saying he took 'greenies' many, many times (especially the day after a night game)? Shall we kick him out of the hall, too?
What about the current crop of players? Anyone notice how quickly the Pujols steroid rumors and allegations disappeared?
It's rubbish to demand McGwire come clean. Judge him based on what he did on the field. Throw in he was a tremendous ambassador to the game, he never failed a drug test, and the worst thing he did was not be prepared for the congressional testimony.
Anyone notice how quickly the Pujols steroid rumors and allegations disappeared?
I am very curious as to why no one is asking aloud the question about Pujols. With all of the people saying the whole world "looked the other way" during those steroid glory years, why are we not asking it aloud of Pujols or other bulky stars of today?
I am buying and trading for RC's of Wilt Chamberlain, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Bob Cousy! Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
Mark didnt want to talk about the past. do you know what hall of famers are known for? talking about the past. What they did in 32 or 49 or 69 or 72 or 83. if mark doesn't want to talk about the past, so be it.
pujols is dedicated. that is why he is so popular. if pujols is a roid fiend, i give up. Pujols is the best thing that has happened to us since ozzie smith. mcgwire is not a cardinal as far as im concerned its like saying gretzkey is a bluenote becasue he played a season in st louis.
<< <i>pujols is dedicated. that is why he is so popular. if pujols is a roid fiend, i give up. Pujols is the best thing that has happened to us since ozzie smith. mcgwire is not a cardinal as far as im concerned its like saying gretzkey is a bluenote becasue he played a season in st louis. >>
McGwire, not a cardinal? Are you serious?
Let me ask you this, and please be honest in your response: were you, or were you not, there cheering for McGwire during his games? Were you not cheering as McGwire battled with Sosa that summer on his way to 70 HRs?
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Let me ask you this, and please be honest in your response: were you, or were you not, there cheering for McGwire during his games? Were you not cheering as McGwire battled with Sosa that summer on his way to 70 HRs?
That's exactly the point. All of us marveled at Big Mac during that season, but none of us realized that he was cheating and taking steroids to achieve those numbers. It's the betrayal of public trust that has, in large part, contributed to the negative perception of McGwire among baseball fans. Fans cheered wildly for Barry Bonds when he hit 73 HRs, too, but now that the truth has come to light, Barry has become one of the most unpopular players in baseball history
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Sheffield and Bonds admitted under oath they took steroids - too bad for them, they cheated, they admitted as such, they're done. McGwire did none of those things - he should be in.
>>
So, award Big Mac for lying. Yeah, thats just great.
It's rubbish to demand McGwire come clean. Judge him based on what he did on the field. Throw in he was a tremendous ambassador to the game, he never failed a drug test, and the worst thing he did was not be prepared for the congressional testimony. >>
HA HA! Big Mac never failed one of those "drug tests" that were given when he played? Do you mean those really really strict drug tests that would have a hard time finding Tylenol
From 70 down to 65 and then all the way down to 32 and 29.
Steroid scandal breaks out and then suddenly, he retires.
"I'm not here to talk about the past"
Right. Sure. Whatever you say.
:snickers:
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
I wouldnt normally bother to mention this, but it seems appropriate since there is this overwhelming defense of McGwire.
It was pointed out that he bulked up over a 12 year span, and steroids had nothing to do with it. My contention is that McGwire was doing steroids before he even entered the major leagues, and what we saw as a young guy was just a sign of things to come with him.
An acquatance of mine, who is a police officer now, played division I college football. As most of us can agree, steroids were a fairly common thing amongst football players, especially 10-20 years ago.
Well, he mentioned to me years back that he had friends who also played football in CA, and gave him story after story of McGwire juicing with fellow SC athletes while he was still in college.
Now of course he didnt see this first hand and it was only info he was given by close friends of his, but I find no reason not to believe him. He isnt the type of guy who would go around telling stories like that for any other reason than it being a fact that was well established.
Im sure that by mentioning this I will receive all sorts of replies about proof, evidence, story telling, jealousy, etc. it wont change my gut feeling that everything I was told was 100% fact.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Comments
<< <i>
Because someone admits they cheated they are to be scorned, but when they LIE and wont admit it we should look the other way and pretend they are innocent ?
I for one have far more respect for those who admitted they cheated, no matter what the circumstances in which they admitted it, than a guy who goes in front of congress and the American people and continues to run from the issue and deny. >>
How do you know he's lying? Are you privy to some insider information that you saw McGwire take steroids?
So tell me, how much respect do you have for Pete Rose? He admitted his wrong doing, would you admit him to the hall?
<< <i>I for one have far more respect for those who admitted they cheated, no matter what the circumstances in which they admitted it, than a guy who goes in front of congress and the American people and continues to run from the issue and deny. >>
I said the same somewhere in this thread and still feel the same way.
"I'm not going to go into the past and talk about my past."
"No habla Engles"
Translation:
I'm not going to commit perjury.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Because someone admits they cheated they are to be scorned, but when they LIE and wont admit it we should look the other way and pretend they are innocent ?
I for one have far more respect for those who admitted they cheated, no matter what the circumstances in which they admitted it, than a guy who goes in front of congress and the American people and continues to run from the issue and deny. >>
How do you know he's lying? Are you privy to some insider information that you saw McGwire take steroids?
So tell me, how much respect do you have for Pete Rose? He admitted his wrong doing, would you admit him to the hall? >>
Yes I would admit Pete Rose into the HOF.
And I know McGwire is lying because I have a brain and can see clear as day like anyone else with something other than empty space above their shoulders can.
-- Yogi Berra
Let me ask those who do: do you forgive Pete Rose? He's admitted wrongdoing, is he hall eligible now?
<< <i>Why do people so desperately want McGwire and others to admit wrong doing?
Let me ask those who do: do you forgive Pete Rose? He's admitted wrongdoing, is he hall eligible now? >>
"To err is human; to forgive is divine." - Alexander Pope
That about sums it up.
In general, people are decent, and will be far more willing to accept someone should they admit their faults. We all make mistakes, some more severe than others. To make mistakes and shy away from admitting them will always rub peoples good nature and ability to forgive the wrong way.
-- Yogi Berra
McGwire doesn't owe anything to the fans, but he could try to be a little better than Pete Rose and at least tell the truth. I'm sure McGwire wants to get back into baseball in come capacity. He won't be able to do it until he comes clean. No one wants to hire him.
When he gets elected into the Hall, he won't be able to hide. He will be grilled with questions about steroids. If he doesn't come clean, his acceptance speech is going to be a joke. He will be mocked by everyone.
<< <i>McGwire never failed a test because steroid testing wasn't in effect when he was a player. He had a chance under oath to say that he never did steroids, rather he just didn't answer the question. He is not as bad as Raffy (he lied), but he is worse than Canseco. At least Jose admitted to it.
McGwire doesn't owe anything to the fans, but he could try to be a little better than Pete Rose and at least tell the truth. I'm sure McGwire wants to get back into baseball in come capacity. He won't be able to do it until he comes clean. No one wants to hire him.
When he gets elected into the Hall, he won't be able to hide. He will be grilled with questions about steroids. If he doesn't come clean, his acceptance speech is going to be a joke. He will be mocked by everyone. >>
If McGwire didn't take steriods, NOW is the time to say it. He knows the cameras are going to be rolling and there's a huge cloud hanging over his head.
I will give him serious props if the question is asked and he responds with, "No habla Engles."
This isn't court, a player doesn't have to be proven guilty without a doubt. I can proudly say that I called my brother within two minutes after Palmeiro waved his finger, and said that he was flat out lying. I knew first hand, because the adamant denial routine got me out of trouble quite often while sitting in the principal's offfice. Then the FBI pointed out that pointing the finger was a tell tale signal for lying. It is pretty evident as well why McGwire was not willing to talk.
It is pretty evident McGwire took them, but that really isn't the question everyone is asking.
<< <i>McGwire never failed a test because steroid testing wasn't in effect when he was a player. He had a chance under oath to say that he never did steroids, rather he just didn't answer the question. He is not as bad as Raffy (he lied), but he is worse than Canseco. At least Jose admitted to it. >>
Jose admitted to it not to shed light on the problem but to sell a book. He knew he had no chance of getting into the hall, so of course he said it. Do you think its coincidence that Canseco waited until he was out of baseball to say he used steroids?
<< <i>McGwire doesn't owe anything to the fans, but he could try to be a little better than Pete Rose and at least tell the truth. I'm sure McGwire wants to get back into baseball in come capacity. He won't be able to do it until he comes clean. No one wants to hire him. >>
Rose has admitted to betting on baseball...and yet he's still a pariah. People wanting McGwire to 'come clean' care less about his 'fessing up' than it is their chance to say 'a ha! I KNEW he cheated!'
<< <i>When he gets elected into the Hall, he won't be able to hide. He will be grilled with questions about steroids. If he doesn't come clean, his acceptance speech is going to be a joke. He will be mocked by everyone. >>
What, he's not already being mocked now? Who isn't crushing this guy in the media?
<< <i>If McGwire didn't take steriods, NOW is the time to say it. He knows the cameras are going to be rolling and there's a huge cloud hanging over his head. >>
He doesn't owe an explanation about his past to anyone. Whether he used or not is nobody's business. Why people are so fascinated and begging him to come clean is beyond me. Seems as if these are the same people who love to cheer when famous people fall down.
He's a first ballot HoFer, even if the retarded writers want to play moral police and keep him out. To say he's not a hall of famer is just ridiculous.
Fergie Jenkins got busted for marijuana and is in the HOF. Marijuana is illegal in the United States.
Mike Schmidt has admitted using amphetamines (they're illegal in the United States) in the 1970's, and also said he may have used steriods if they had been around while he was active, and he's in the HOF
Not to mention the countless others who probably also used something (possibly/probably illegal in the United States) while playing to keep themselves going or help their performance, with no proof or evidence ever appearing.
Mark McGwire might have used "something" (maybe illegal), but we don't know what or when. There's just NO evidence either way, except the Andro, which was legal in baseball and legal in the United States Justice System. So let's keep him out of the HOF
Sounds to me like we need to remove Fergie's and Schmidty's busts from the HOF, and while we're at it, start investigating EVERY OTHER HOFer and HOF eligible/worthy player ever! If any current HOFers turn up as having done ANYTHING ILLEGAL, TAKE THEIR BUSTS OUT OF THE HOF!
FORGET THAT!!!!!
MARK MCGWIRE DESERVES TO BE INDUCTED INTO THE HALL OF FAME DAMN IT, SO DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Steve
However, his stats are what they are, and I think he will probably get in eventually, just not for a couple of years. He certainly won't be a "first ballot" HOFer, that much is clearly evident at this point, especially with Ripken and Gwynn on the ballot.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Without steroids, McGwire is a lifetime .250 hitter with about 450 homers, maybe, and little else to argue for his HOF induction. He may have "saved" baseball with his and Sosa's juice-tainted Home Run Chase, but that shouldn't be reason to induct him into the Hall. >>
How do you know that? How can you stand there and make those kind of judgements, when you don't even know for sure he used steroids?
<< <i>However, his stats are what they are, and I think he will probably get in eventually, just not for a couple of years. He certainly won't be a "first ballot" HOFer, that much is clearly evident at this point. >>
His not being a first ballot HoFer, when these same moronic voters who heralded the McGwire/Sosa HR chase are now chastising McGwire and saying 'you may not pass!!!'
Hypocritical.
I suppose you also believe O.J. Simpson was innocent, too.
His not being a first ballot HoFer,
He'll be lucky to get 50% of the vote this year.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Tell me how you KNOW he would have only hit 450 HRs, and how you KNOW he didn't take steroids. If you KNOW he took steroids (i.e. saw him take it) why isn't the national media interviewing you?
I can't possibly debate you if you even think for a second that Mark McGwire wasn't using steroids.
It's a moot point anyway, he won't get in this year, and probably not for a couple of years at least, and I agree with that. Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion, however misguided.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Just had to put that there...big Lord of the Rings fan here!
Actually, the O.J. reference is very relevant here, because it illustrates that a person can be correctly perceived as guilty even if they are not actually convicted of the act. I doubt anyone other than you and Tony LaRussa believe McGwire is clean.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I suppose you also believe O.J. Simpson was innocent, too. >>
Actually, that's an excellent point.
Unless they say otherwise, we must assume one is 100% innocent, regardless of the overwhelming evidence against him?
Guess so... Heck, OJ is probably playing golf as I type this.
Link
A no vote for McGwire
For this voter, Cardinal's sins are unforgivable on election day
By Bob Ryan, Globe Columnist | November 28, 2006
The time has come, and the answer is no.
Mark McGwire may get into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the first ballot, but it won't be unanimous. I know one vote he's not getting.
This is the voting hot potato we've been waiting for, and now it's here with the release of the ballot yesterday . A while back, I would have said "dreading." But I dread no longer. I'm comfortable with my decision. If someone wants to vote for him, fine. But I'm not going to do it. I'll also wager that more people are thinking my way than are thinking the other way. I doubt that he'll get in, at least this time.
To those who will ask, "Where were you in '98, when he was hitting baseballs into places baseballs had never been hit before?" I answer, "Watching and enjoying." I was sent to St. Louis for that Labor Day weekend when he was breaking the Roger Maris record of 61 home runs. I enjoyed it all. I told people it was the most fun event of its type I had ever been around.
It was a weekend celebration of baseball. The Cardinals were playing the Reds and the Cubs, and none of them were in a pennant race. It was all about Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa, and mostly about Mark McGwire, who had come home from a road trip with 59 home runs.
What I loved about that weekend was the way everyone was into it. McGwire was into it. Sosa was into it. Tony La Russa was into it. Reds manager Jack McKeon was so into it he proclaimed that he would deviate from his normal policy and pitch to McGwire, regardless of circumstance. Cubs skipper Jim Riggleman was into it, stating, "We have a fascination with power." We sure did.
Everything was temporarily subservient to McGwire's quest for the record. Aside from McGwire's at-bats, I remember nothing about the games themselves. Did the Cardinals win or lose? I'd have to look it up. I truly have no idea.
What I do know is that Mark McGwire hit No. 60 off Cincinnati lefthander Dennis Reyes , No. 61 off Chicago veteran righthander Mike Morgan , and the record-breaking No. 62 off Chicago righthander Steve Trachsel . I remember the strange nature of No. 62, a low liner that, at a measured 341 feet, was McGwire's shortest of the season. I remember him almost missing first base. I remember him being greeted by his son. I remember him embracing Sosa. I remember him going into the stands to be congratulated by the Maris family. I remember even the most cynical members of the press being enormously moved and entertained by the whole thing.
Steroids were not an issue.
That seems difficult to believe now; I realize that. I had read about Associated Press writer Steve Wilstein seeing the bottle of androstenedione in McGwire's locker, but I paid that story little attention. I just didn't follow up on it. Sorry. I do recall being struck by the size of McGwire's biceps and forearms during one of his news conferences, but I attributed that to weight training and went onto other matters.
Call that approach to the issue naive, and I won't argue. Call it ignorant, and I won't argue. Call it inexcusable and what am I supposed to say? It probably was. I'm neither cynical nor suspicious by nature, except when it comes to things people say. My long years of experience in this business have taught me that owners, administrators, coaches, and players far too frequently either lie or find nothing wrong with being laughably disingenuous. I must report to you that in the world of sport, honesty and candor are not exactly valued traits.
Anyway, Mark McGwire hit his 70 homers in 1998 and his 65 in 1999 before beginning his quick decline, which we came to learn was almost undoubtedly due to the harm he had done his body by use of something that turned out to be very bad for him. I don't know what he was on, but it became clear to me, and many others, that he was on something sinister.
I don't know for sure when he started going on the juice, but if you look at his record, you notice a dramatic increase in home run frequency in 1995, when he hit 39 homers in 317 at-bats, thus reversing a decline dating from 1992. You can either take it at face value that he just got healthy that year, or you can put 2 and 2 together. I opt for the arithmetic.
We will never know how many home runs he hit that would have died at the warning track absent the extra oomph provided by the juice. 10? 30? 50? 100? It's impossible to say. I know that some voters will do an estimate and say, "OK, we'll subtract that total from the 583 he hit and, hey, he still would have hit (fill in the blank) 450, 500, however many. That's a lot of homers, and I'm voting for him." And that's their call. It's just not going to be mine.
That glorious weekend in St. Louis eight years ago? I now feel I was used. And I'm sorry, but I cannot get past that sad day in March 2005 when Mark McGwire appeared before the House Government Reform Committee and became the first American citizen to invoke the 4 1/2 Amendment. Asked if he had used performance-enhancing substances, he said, "My lawyers have advised me that I cannot answer these questions without jeopardizing my friends, my family, and myself."
And then there was this classic: "I'm not here to talk about the past," he whimpered.
Well, Mark, if you can't bring yourself to talk about your past, I don't see any reason why we should waste time evaluating it. Tony Gwynn, Cal Ripken, Jim Rice, Goose Gossage, Dave Concepcion, and perhaps one or two others will get my vote. You won't.
Bob Ryan is a Globe columnist. His e-mail address is ryan@globe.com.
For him to sit there in judgement when he sat in silence as it was happening (and reaping the benefits of it), then, to come back, and rip McGwire for not testing positive for anything, is rubbish.
As far as the OJ reference, please tell me what evidence you have that would convict McGwire in a court of law if he went on trial and steroid use was the accusation?
<< <i>I don't know what he was on, but it became clear to me, and many others, that he was on something sinister. >>
So in addition to being a sports writer, Bob's found time to get his degree in medicine and become a doctor? Wow! What a guy! I had no idea he was so talented.
This holier than thou attitude these arrogant writers want to bestow on those they deem 'unworthy' is simply sickening.
I thought it was a decent article and it probably reflects a substantial majority of the sportswriters out there.
<< <i>its not a holier than thou perspective, it's more like hindsight is 20/20
I thought it was a decent article and it probably reflects a substantial majority of the sportswriters out there. >>
Come on, do you honestly believe that?
Does anyone really believe these sportswriters, who are closer to the athletes than any one else, didn't notice huge differences from the end of one season the start of the next spring training? How many writers, or baseball people in general said ANYTHING?
Now they want to hold up their hands and say 'hold on fellas. You can't go in'? What a crock.
To those who failed drug tests, or admitted they used steroids: you're out. That's you Mr. Bonds. You too Mr. Sheffield. Mr Giambi, outta here. Raffy? Sit the F down.
Sosa? McGwire? Come on down.
Should we give Raffy a pass? I mean, his steroid use was also during the same time as all the other alleged major leaguers. The finding of steroids was from an older sample, am I right? Don't we assume that a high percentage of major leaguers were juicing during that time? Weren't there other older samples and not just Raffy's? Was Raffy targeted because of his actions in the hearing? There are lots of questions that will never be answered....and essentially if you give one guy a pass from that era, should you give them all a pass?
Was it an era of steroids that was MLB's fault and not the players? I suppose if you really wanted to throw blame it should be on both MLB AND the Players Association because from what I understand, the bargaining contract limited testing. Both their faults for allowing such a negotiation.
All these guys are going to be known for being part of the "steroid era". Will that be punishment enough? And yes, Im including even Bonds(as much as I cant stand him), Giambi, Sheffield, etc...I would imagine that there will be a certain shame to players from this era, whether they juiced or not. Sorry Ripken and Griffey. (Assuming neither juiced)
Just a thought.....
But since McGwire wasn't there to "talk about the past" and Sosa forgot how to speak English, they are 100% innocent and get a free pass.
That's the definition of hyprocritical.
The "I don't want to focus on the past" crap is a weasal move. That is why McGwire is lumped in with the rest. Pete Rose is still on the fringes because he shows no remorse for betting on baseball. People were ready to forgive him until he started doing book signings at casinos.
<< <i>McGwire, Bonds, Giambi, and Sheffield never failed a drug test. It is totally hypocritical to say McGwire should be given a free pass and the others should be kept out. The latter three were supposed to have immunity and privacy in exchange for their testimony. At least they admitted to something. >>
Sheffield and Bonds admitted under oath they took steroids - too bad for them, they cheated, they admitted as such, they're done. McGwire did none of those things - he should be in.
<< <i>The "I don't want to focus on the past" crap is a weasal move. That is why McGwire is lumped in with the rest. Pete Rose is still on the fringes because he shows no remorse for betting on baseball. People were ready to forgive him until he started doing book signings at casinos. >>
Here's what is the definition of hypocritical - people in this thread saying McGwire 'should fess up to what he did!', then they'd say it's ok for him to be in, when these same people still want to hold Rose out, even though he's admitted to what he's done. THAT is the definition of hypocritical.
People clamoring for McGwire to admit what he's done has NOTHING to do with them wanting to see McGwire come clean - and EVERYTHING to do with their perverse hunger to see greats of the game crumble (as long as it's a division rival, mind you).
It's a disgusting display of hypocrisy.
<< <i>Here's what is the definition of hypocritical - people in this thread saying McGwire 'should fess up to what he did!', then they'd say it's ok for him to be in, when these same people still want to hold Rose out, even though he's admitted to what he's done. THAT is the definition of hypocritical. >>
What Rose did is completely different. He flat out denied it for years only to come clean when his book came out. He should display some remorse for what he did, and then and only then, should he be considered into the Hall.
<< <i>People clamoring for McGwire to admit what he's done has NOTHING to do with them wanting to see McGwire come clean - and EVERYTHING to do with their perverse hunger to see greats of the game crumble (as long as it's a division rival, mind you). >>
What in the world are you talking about? Division rivals? Uh, McGwire is retired so I don't know where you are trying to go with that.
And just for clarification, McGwire saying he did OR didn't would cast him in a better light than where he is now, in my opinion.
I gotta say, youve been providing me with some good laughs in this thread.
Had McGwire played in NY you would be saying he is a first class cheater and liar who wouldnt come clean AND a one dimentional player who doesnt deserve a second thought for the HOF.
-- Yogi Berra
1. I do not think Mcgwire will get more than 45% of the vote.
2. Pete Rose is not eligible to be voted for because he has been banned from baseball. He isn't on the ballot for reasons that take more than a few sentences to explain. It does not matter whether a voter wants to vote for him or not. This applies to no one else in the discussion.
3. The only HOF worthy aspect of Mcgwire's game was his power, which is the main skill improved by steroids. If he excelled in more phases of the game, the issue may be trickier.
4. I am not a fan of Barry Bonds, but he was a 3 time MVP before steroids, and after he was like Gretzky on... well, steroids.
5. The legal system of the US is not the same as the process for voting for the Baseball HOF. We do not need to "prove" anything in a court of law. Being inducted into the HOF is not a right of every citizen, nor is not voting for someone a violation of their rights.
6. Eventually many players from this era will get in to the HOF. Some will have used steroids, others not. Some will have used steroids and people will not have had the perception that they did.
7. This era is tainted for a slew of reasons that will not be sorted out, in perception, for generations to come.
8. With all of this steroid use with all of the big stars, how much greater does this make Griffey Jr appear in his prime. Stack his numbers out there against the other non-users and see how legendary he looks.
9. I have wondered how successful a pro sports league would be in say, Amsterdam, where all drugs are legal for use by the players. The biggest fastest humans all taking whatever they want. Would it be kind of interesting since at least we knew it was a level playing field for all? Like the "All Drug Olympics" or something?
10. Are we doing the same thing today with Pujols as we did with the Mcgwires and Sosas and Bonds? Looking the other way and assuming he is more like Ruth than he is like Bonds? The players are always going to be one step ahead if they want to be. Pujols sure looks really big compared to his first few years. Like George Bush says "Fool me once, shame on you. But...uh..you can't... um...you can't fool a fool ...er... you can't fool a fool again...
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<< <i>Like the "All Drug Olympics" or something? >>
A classic SNL skit
Edited to add link -----> here
<< <i>Like George Bush says "Fool me once, shame on you. But...uh..you can't... um...you can't fool a fool ...er... you can't fool a fool again... >>
Our Leader
-- Yogi Berra
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
<< <i>Isn't it strange how the perception of Mcgwire has shifted, almost completely? There was no more beloved figure in sports for those few years, and now even the picture the media uses of him in the stories is a stoic, almost angry looking portrait. >>
That's what happens when you have a dark cloud hanging over your head
<< <i>
That's what happens when you have a dark cloud hanging over your head
No dark cloud for McGwire, nothing that rabid 'fans' and an overzealous media has put there.
He owes no one any explanation of his past, nor any apology of any sort. Those who demand he give one simply need to see greats of the game fall in order to feel better about their own miserable, pathetic lives. These are the same people who get off on watching Springer and say 'my life sucks but it's better than this guy's!'
<< <i>No dark cloud for McGwire, nothing that rabid 'fans' and an overzealous media has put there.
He owes no one any explanation of his past, nor any apology of any sort. Those who demand he give one simply need to see greats of the game fall in order to feel better about their own miserable, pathetic lives. These are the same people who get off on watching Springer and say 'my life sucks but it's better than this guy's!' >>
That's your opinion, which may be shared by a very small minority, but I see it differently.
I would have more respect and see him in a better light if he gave a straight answer. As of right now, he's lower than Rose ever was.
Yes I did or no I did not. It's really not that difficult.
By saying "I'm not here to talk about the past" implies (at least to me and a majority of baseball fans) that he did take steroids.
Until he does admit either way, that cloud will forever be over his head.
Agree to disagree, don't flame.
Shows like Springer, all the celebrity rags are popular because of people's need to feel their lives are better than the celebrities they worship.
People saying that McGwire needs to 'come clean' and then he'll be 'forgiven' are just nuts. People said the same thing about Rose, then said 'well...he'd didn't reall MEAN that apology!' For the clowns who rail for McGwire to admit to steroid use, all they'll say is 'well, he did come clean, but it too him too long' or some other BS excuse to keep him down.
Where is the outrage over Mike Schmidt saying he took 'greenies' many, many times (especially the day after a night game)? Shall we kick him out of the hall, too?
What about the current crop of players? Anyone notice how quickly the Pujols steroid rumors and allegations disappeared?
It's rubbish to demand McGwire come clean. Judge him based on what he did on the field. Throw in he was a tremendous ambassador to the game, he never failed a drug test, and the worst thing he did was not be prepared for the congressional testimony.
I am very curious as to why no one is asking aloud the question about Pujols. With all of the people saying the whole world "looked the other way" during those steroid glory years, why are we not asking it aloud of Pujols or other bulky stars of today?
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
do you know what hall of famers are known for?
talking about the past.
What they did in 32 or 49 or 69 or 72 or 83.
if mark doesn't want to talk about the past,
so be it.
if pujols is a roid fiend, i give up. Pujols is the best thing that has happened to us since ozzie smith.
mcgwire is not a cardinal as far as im concerned its like saying gretzkey is a bluenote becasue he played a season in st louis.
<< <i>pujols is dedicated. that is why he is so popular.
if pujols is a roid fiend, i give up. Pujols is the best thing that has happened to us since ozzie smith.
mcgwire is not a cardinal as far as im concerned its like saying gretzkey is a bluenote becasue he played a season in st louis. >>
McGwire, not a cardinal? Are you serious?
Let me ask you this, and please be honest in your response: were you, or were you not, there cheering for McGwire during his games? Were you not cheering as McGwire battled with Sosa that summer on his way to 70 HRs?
That's exactly the point. All of us marveled at Big Mac during that season, but none of us realized that he was cheating and taking steroids to achieve those numbers. It's the betrayal of public trust that has, in large part, contributed to the negative perception of McGwire among baseball fans. Fans cheered wildly for Barry Bonds when he hit 73 HRs, too, but now that the truth has come to light, Barry has become one of the most unpopular players in baseball history
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>No physical difference, eh? >>
Hey, stown, how many years difference between those 2 photos?
hahaha
You're funny.
<< <i>
Sheffield and Bonds admitted under oath they took steroids - too bad for them, they cheated, they admitted as such, they're done. McGwire did none of those things - he should be in.
>>
So, award Big Mac for lying. Yeah, thats just great.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
It's rubbish to demand McGwire come clean. Judge him based on what he did on the field. Throw in he was a tremendous ambassador to the game, he never failed a drug test, and the worst thing he did was not be prepared for the congressional testimony. >>
HA HA! Big Mac never failed one of those "drug tests" that were given when he played? Do you mean those really really strict drug tests that would have a hard time finding Tylenol
My goodness are you naive Ax
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
From small to huge to small again.
From 70 down to 65 and then all the way down to 32 and 29.
Steroid scandal breaks out and then suddenly, he retires.
"I'm not here to talk about the past"
Right. Sure. Whatever you say.
:snickers:
It was pointed out that he bulked up over a 12 year span, and steroids had nothing to do with it. My contention is that McGwire was doing steroids before he even entered the major leagues, and what we saw as a young guy was just a sign of things to come with him.
An acquatance of mine, who is a police officer now, played division I college football. As most of us can agree, steroids were a fairly common thing amongst football players, especially 10-20 years ago.
Well, he mentioned to me years back that he had friends who also played football in CA, and gave him story after story of McGwire juicing with fellow SC athletes while he was still in college.
Now of course he didnt see this first hand and it was only info he was given by close friends of his, but I find no reason not to believe him. He isnt the type of guy who would go around telling stories like that for any other reason than it being a fact that was well established.
Im sure that by mentioning this I will receive all sorts of replies about proof, evidence, story telling, jealousy, etc. it wont change my gut feeling that everything I was told was 100% fact.
-- Yogi Berra