The "Raw Coin" Collecting Era!!

BAJJERFAN

This statement from another thread.

<< I can't accept the reason for TPGs existence tied to "95-99% of collectors/investors/dealers can't grade technically". Prior to TPGs one was at the mercy of the "market maker" a/k/a the coin dealer. Regardless of your own grading skills, there was no base line other than the "dealer" saying your coin was graded too liberally and his coin was graded just right. If you wanted to buy or sell you were at the mercy of the dealer agreeing with your grade. This forum is filled with many stories of people getting ripped off on raw coin deals. TPGs gave a commonality, a reference point that no longer put the collector at a disadvantage. The reference points became the same for both collector and dealer. The playing field is now more level. >>


So in your opinion could the average collector grade better when all coins were unslabbed or would you say that there hasn't been much change in grading ability one way or the other?

drwstr123

"So in your opinion could the average collector grade better when all coins were unslabbed or would you say that there hasn't been much change in grading ability one way or the other? "

I think he's saying that one party has less ability to lie, embellish, or con.

roadrunner

I'd say there's been a large improvement in the grading skills of the overall skilled collector and dealer base. The average buyer is much more skilled in recognizing the fine points of grading and valuation. However the coin doctor technology has advanced at least at the same pace as well. We've also split the MS points into such a fine gradation since 1985 that most are still at risk determining what the TPG grade would be (or at least the valuation).

Pre-1986 you didn't have to split the choice MS grade into so many pieces. Today you really have 3 to 5 splits for each of the grades from MS63 to MS65. That was not really the case in the raw era.
Or at least it was not as critical an input to determining value as it is today.

The TPG's on average are only 60-80% repeatable on their own skills. Why would we expect the majority to be better than that?

roadrunner

ziggy29

<< <i>I'd say there's been a large improvement in the grading skills of the overall skilled collector and dealer base. The average buyer is much more skilled in recognizing the fine points of grading and valuation. However the coin doctor technology has advanced at least at the same pace as well. We've also split the MS points into such a fine gradation since 1985 that most are still at risk determining what the TPG grade would be. >>

True. And the more "splits" you have, the more opportunities there are for disagreements and the more we see the crackout game played.

When it was only 60, 65 and 70, for example, if a coin was 64 or 66 (by today's scale) there was little doubt about whether the coin was a 60, 65 or a 70. If you submitted it 10 times, it probably comes back as 65 all ten times.

Even when 63 and 67 were added, while it did add a little more room for disagreement about the grade, it was fairly manageable. But with 11 different mint state grades, each successive grade only very slightly nicer than the previous? Not so much. And some people want to add fractions??

JRocco

Reading this statement:
<<"Regardless of your own grading skills, there was no base line other than the "dealer" saying your coin was graded too liberally and his coin was graded just right. If you wanted to buy or sell you were at the mercy of the dealer agreeing with your grade">>

Do we forget that the buyer has the option of WALKING AWAY from such a dealer. D'OH

If gas is selling in my area for $2.50 a gallon on average and 1 gas "dealer" in town charges $3.50 claiming that his gas is better--I am faced with a decision-----

I HAVE THE OPTION OF CHOOSING WHERE I SPEND MY MONEY...........

Dealers that do as you claim -will, and should eventually see less and less sales and the honest dealer----yes there are a few out there-- should see a bump in business due to their honesty/integrity etc.

We do not need to live in a socialist coin dealing/selling community where our hand is held and the poor poor ignorant buyer who is preyed upon by those wolves that sell coins needs to be protected..................come-on STOP THE CRAP ALREADY

Take charge of yourselves and buy properly or you deserve these nuclear options described.

stev32k

I dislike slabs, but agree that TPGs have helped level the playing field. The TPGs are not perfect, but at least they offer some measure of objectivity and most will try not to grade an XF coin as AU58 (or worse)which still happens with a lot of raw coins.

However, I believe the whole grading system(s) need to be taken one step further by certifying the graders. I would like to see someone like the ANA set-up a certification process based on individuals correctly grading a set of standards. The standards themselves would be slabbed coins that a panel of experts have graded and agreed on the assigned grade. The graders could be certified for each series of coins i.e. seated types, Morgans, Bust types, etc. They would have to pass a hands-on test to be certified for each series of coins.

I know this has a lot of problems and not all the TPGs would want to take part, but I believe it would help consistency of grading within each TPG organization and from TPG to TPG.

DRUNNER

Answering the question in the OP . . .

I don't believe that much has changed in the skill of the average collector. Although we have greater technical possibility to excel in grading through education (ANA) , literature, and the chance to see MANY coins through the internet, we at the same time, get lazy by trusting a grading service to make the decision for us.

Off the original topic . . .

The financial difference in many coins between fine determinations of grade, possibly non-repeatable even by the world's best graders, has made the art (or science) of grading somwhat mute. It is now a concern of plastic . . . not grade. I agree with the posts yesterday . . . I would NEVER crack out my keys or higher grade non-keys . . . . they have value due to the plastic, regardless of my ability to grade. I would not risk that value out of the plastic.

Grading is now (or still ???) either AU, 60, 63, or 65 at the average coin shop for a raw coin. The only way added value gets put on is if the piece is in a slab with a number. Hence . . . the plastic game. Is your average local shop going to call a Morgan a 66 and charge 66 money if it is raw? Not the ones I visit. You may pay full 65 money and maybe even a touch of a premium, but not 66 money. The plastic adds the value.

It was the same way 10, 20 or 30 years ago . . . when raw.

Drunner

bhartman35

<< <i>We do not need to live in a socialist coin dealing/selling community where our hand is held and the poor poor ignorant buyer who is preyed upon by those wolves that sell coins needs to be protected..................come-on STOP THE CRAP ALREADY

Take charge of yourselves and buy properly or you deserve these nuclear options described. >>





If you think a dealer overgrades their own coins and undergrades yours, you've got the option of walking away, which people routinely do on Ebay every day of the week. How many raw coins on Ebay are graded accurately by sellers? You pay what you think a coin is worth, not what the seller thinks. If you can't agree, you walk away.

roadrunner

The price of admission into the coin hobby prior to TPG's was pretty costly if you were into higher grade coins. The majority of collectors got smoked badly as they learned their craft. There had to be a better way. Slabs are an improvement but no panacea. While it's easy to say just become an expert, very few attain that level. Imagine if you had to know how to read stock certificates themselves for bogus fine print, and other type of legalese that would be rampant if stocks were not controlled by an SEC? 95% of stock buyers don't know the details, but they have laws and the SEC to some extent to protect them. One can walk away from low offers on their coins, the problem is that you may have to do a lot of walking and accept a lot of low balls before you find the right buyer.
The uninitiated (with passed down collections) don't know this and do sell to the first low-ball they stop at.

When it was only 60, 65 and 70, for example, if a coin was 64 or 66 (by today's scale) there was little doubt about whether the coin was a 60, 65 or a 70. If you submitted it 10 times, it probably comes back as 65 all ten times.

The 11 mint state grades were there essentially as soon as the 60/65/70 numbers were put out. While those were the only 3 recognized numbers, the leading dealers that attended the auctions
were grading on a far more detailed scale. In comparing notes after a sale with some of them, they typically would have grades of
60, 60+, 60++, 60+++, 65, 65+, 65++, 70 (8 MS points). It wasn't too long before 63 and 67 were tossed into the mix so now you had
60, 60+, 60++, 63, 63+, 63++, 65, 65+, 65++, 67, 67+. In fact all 11 points where there very early on. It was just a matter of removing a + sign and substituting in 61, 64, 66, 68 to complete the series...but for they most part they had always been there.

Even before numbers were heavily used in the mid-1970's the grading still had multiple points with just adjectives:

UNC, UNC+, Ch UNC, CH UNC+, Gem UNC, Gem UNC+, etc.
And based on the choice/gem coins accumulated by Pittman, Elisaberg, Norweb, etc. it's clear that in the 40's through 60's, there was something beyond just UNC or PF, or even nice UNC or nice PF.
And these collectors paid premiums for that quality.

Today we have an "11 point system" broken down by many into a 30 or more points system. Decimal grading has been here for decades, just not officially called that.

roadrunner

fcloud

All I know is when you sold a coin back then to a dealer they would always low ball the their price to purchase from you. (They all did it in my area.) You could go back into the shop a few days later, and the coin they insisted was only AU and would only pay you AU money would show up in their case as Choice or Gem BU. I'll take the third party grading system any day over the old days of dealer rip offs. Now they either need to compete or you can sell your stuff on your own.

fcloud

I forgot to add some of the dealers here won't even purchase coins in third party holders because they feel they are a rip off. Yea, it takes their ability to rip you off away. LOL!

PerryHall

The collector today can grade much better thanks to TPGS's. For example, a serious Morgan collector has the opportunity to study thousands of Morgans in top tier slabs. He can get a good feel for what a raw Morgan should grade based on this experience. This was NOT an option in the past. Every dealer had a different grading standard and most had two standards---one when buying and one when selling.

roadrunner

My best recollections of trying to sell in the pre-slab era was that most local dealers NEVER wanted to see their "gem" coins back again. You know, the coins they bought as BU or Ch Bu but sold to you as Gem, for full retail. When I went back with those coins they had no more customers for them, or didn't recognize the coins as theirs, or were low on cash. Other than a brief window in late '79 or early '80, it was tough to sell a coin back to any locals. They made a living buying low from Peter as BU and selling high to Paul as gem BU. In no way do they want to have to buy back from Paul at a gem level. For one, most of the coins were not gem. Needless to say I cut ties with most of those locals. I would agree that slabdom has helped to even up the score.

Raw coins get sold on the 61,62,63,64,65 scale quite frequently at my local shops. By the 66 level they are probably being sent out for grading.

roadrunner

ram1946

I authored the comments on another post that spurned this post. Yes, the buyer always had (and always will have) the choice to walk away. I'm not advocating leaving the thought process to the TPGs. In fact, one of the most fascinating traits of our hobby is the debate as to the aesthetics of the coin. I grew up collecting raw coins and had a great old time dealer in Bridgeport, CT that really taught me how to grade. My beef with the raw coin era was the snake oil that most dealers tried to peddle. If one wanted to sell typical collector coins back to the dealer (for a host of reasons), it seemed the coin was never as good as when you bought it. There was always a "problem". Talk about becoming disenchanted with the collection of coins! TPGs, love 'em or hate 'em, give a central starting point. This, coupled with a more fluid market (internet), greatly reduces the vig between the dealer and the collector. While there still are lots of snake oil salesmen, their camaflogue is wearing thin.

topstuf

The "skills" have been simplified. If it can get by the %&$%'s at PCGS, the grade is okay.

An excerpt from a fellow DEALER's email: "it got slabbed by the fussy bassards at
PCGS"

And time after time it is REproven. Just from the posts about crossovers and "standards"
PCGS grades ...DIFFERENTLY.... from the other TPGs.

Fact.

And we all know it even though we protest from time to time. Until it's in the PCGS slab, it's "tainted."

JRocco

<< <i>All I know is when you sold a coin back then to a dealer they would always low ball the their price to purchase from you. (They all did it in my area.) You could go back into the shop a few days later, and the coin they insisted was only AU and would only pay you AU money would show up in their case as Choice or Gem BU. I'll take the third party grading system any day over the old days of dealer rip offs. Now they either need to compete or you can sell your stuff on your own. >>



Did you challenge them on this or did you just ask them to use a little more KY next time ????????

Coxe

Grading is not the only area that TPGs have changed in the hobby. The single most important contribution has been authentication. The second is in discriminating sliders (detecting and reporting wear). And the third is in weeding out problem coins (cleaning, repairs, ...).

Authentication is the most important one and the area apparently where consistency is quite high. In fact, if this point ever failed significantly, that would kill third party grading as we know it, guarantees or no guarantees. Sliders, IMHO are still a bit of a problem. We all are aware that some coins in MS60-MS62 are aruguably uncirculated, with excuses made for cabinet friction and similar. With occasional contradictions, problem coins have largely been stopped in their tracks by TPGs. Yes, there is some allowance for light cleaning on some coins and some do slip through the cracks, but they do pretty well here. Generally, they grade to the market on that anyway.

Still, the main service we should and do depend on TPGs for is the authentication of our coins. That is why I believe also that the future for TPGs will be in attributing die varieties and die states. I would hate to see them be too slow on that opportunity for their business and to help sustain the inertia of that intellectual side of the market.

The 100 point scale was not a good idea IMO, though some folks whom I hold in high regard will disagree with me. The granularity in technical grading is fine enough as it stands. The rest of us can value on asthetics from there. The point that having slabs with grade tags on them in the face of collectors as helping to teach them to grade was an important point that someone brought up in this thread and one I hadn't considered much. It's kind of like taping index cards with multiplication problems around the house to help a school kid absorb their multiplication table. I still think there are a lot more collectors today who are both lazy and insecure in grading coins themselves, in deferrence to the TPG tags. However, the pint is taken and undoubtedly the TPGs have helped many (not all) become better graders themselves.

PerryHall

If you want to know about the raw coin era, talk to someone who sent in their best coins to be slabbed and got back a bunch of body bags.

topstuf

ANACS started with the ...authentication. They deserve kudos for that.

SLABBING started when coins went to pot in the mid 80's and all ....ACCEPTED.... grades were deflated to CONCEAL the FACT that the market was crapping out.

Plain and simple.

Ask anyone who sent in the finest known 1871 seated dollar and got a 64 on it.

fcloud

<< <i>Did you challenge them on this or did you just ask them to use a little more KY next time ???????? >>



Of course I challenged this particular dealer, but the attitude was buyer beware (and still is). Like I stated above, they don't like slabs (and my guess is because it is too hard to rip people off).

One example (about 1984). I had to raise some quick funds. The coin in question a 1914-D $20.00 Gold. Purchased as Gem a few years earlier (and it was an absolute Gem). I was offered $300.00. We argued over the price. As I was leaving he said they offered $700.00 on commission. When I went back to the store two weeks later. They laughed in my face as they sold the coin for $2000.00. I am not against someone making a living; however, I don't like the KY!

They only got me once. After that I took the stuff I had to sell to a dealer in a major city and was able to negotiate for what we both thought were acceptable prices. The other end of the story is how much sales have they lost to people like me, as I am sure I am not the only one.

I'm sure there are many people who don't even know they were given the KY. I wonder how many widows have been taken by class acts like this dealer.

JRocco

I agree, and contrary to the impression I may give- I like the fact that TPG's came to market to help balance out the crooks out there.
I hope that top TPG's continue to be a force in our hobby and that they sure do add a layer of protection---that said we are all still libel for our own purchasing decisions.
I will not pay 65 money for a coin I think is less than gem just because one of the top TPG's slab it as a 65- that is my biggest grief with the thoughts that TPG's are the ultimate ruling on a coin. When I see a coin at a show in a dealers case in an overgraded slab I offer less than going rate for that grade and I am amazed at the number of dealers that say ridiculous things like "of course its a 65--look at the label". Here is where we have to take responsibility for our own buying decisions. If a true 65 coin finally "made" a 66 label after 5 tries thru the system it is still a 65 no matter what the label says. To me this paragraph is a no brainer---yet there are so many yokum's that will argue the point that PCGS or NGC have to be right-------Donkey Dust !!!