Scary conversations on the network 54 vintage boards...
Skinpinch
Posts: 1,531
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1164306390/last-1164498993/Questions+for+Doug+Allen
This link is for questions to Mastro about card restoration.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1164482301/last-1164498360/Questions+for+Scott+Gaynor
This link is for questions to Gaynor about the same...
I know a few old time collectors, and Gaynor's comment about not kidding oneself has a bit of truth to it. Scary if you are holding a bunch of high end stuff.
This link is for questions to Mastro about card restoration.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1164482301/last-1164498360/Questions+for+Scott+Gaynor
This link is for questions to Gaynor about the same...
I know a few old time collectors, and Gaynor's comment about not kidding oneself has a bit of truth to it. Scary if you are holding a bunch of high end stuff.
0
Comments
<< <i>http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1164306390/last-1164498993/Questions+for+Doug+Allen
This link is for questions to Mastro about card restoration.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1164482301/last-1164498360/Questions+for+Scott+Gaynor
This link is for questions to Gaynor about the same...
I know a few old time collectors, and Gaynor's comment about not kidding oneself has a bit of truth to it. Scary if you are holding a bunch of high end stuff. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1164306390/last-1164498993/Questions+for+Doug+Allen
This link is for questions to Mastro about card restoration.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1164482301/last-1164498360/Questions+for+Scott+Gaynor
This link is for questions to Gaynor about the same...
I know a few old time collectors, and Gaynor's comment about not kidding oneself has a bit of truth to it. Scary if you are holding a bunch of high end stuff. >>
>>
I believe it is an overeaction. I would think that it would be extremely difficult to get any of these restored cards passed PSA. chaz
<< <i>You are saying that in the ironic style popularized by Da Big Hurt, right? >>
PSA grades hand cut cards, BGS grades sheet cuts. Keep it real, Yawie.
<< <i>
<< <i>You are saying that in the ironic style popularized by Da Big Hurt, right? >>
PSA grades hand cut cards, BGS grades sheet cuts. Keep it real, Yawie. >>
That's right boopotts. I could not have said it any better. chaz
http://sportsfansnews.com/author/andy-fischer/
<< <i>Well Doug allen addmittedly presses out creases("light surface wrinkles") to get past psa, i for one think that is a huge problem in itself. >>
If those wrinkles come back, he's got a big problem then because those cards will be traced right back to him. chaz
mastro president called out joe orlando in regards to the "wrinkle vs crease" alteration and felt it was 'acceptable' to 3rd party grading companies. don't know if mr. orlando will chime in, but i would hope his stance is exactly what psa grading standards state.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
I did read the thread there though and it was interesting. Again...the regular PSA bashers over there, a number of which got kicked off the CU board, blame PSA for certain things when it is obviously other people's greed for the problem of card alteration such as pressing out wrinkles - then the wrinkles can have a "memory" and resurface on the card within the slab.
How PSA could detect this without using some kind of "electron microscope" adding greatly to the cost of card grading, I have no idea? I think the answer to this problem to discourage people from doing it may be to make a small "wrinkle" a qualifier rather than an automatic severe reduction in grade. I mean a possible 10 going to say a 5 because of a little tiny wrinkle many of them are inherent in the card manufacturing process itself - that never made total sense to me.
I do feel that card grading doesn't have to be a stagnant process...that it should be dynamic in making adjustments to a changing marketplace - and PSA in my opinion will adapt to these changes. Say for a tiny wrinkle a card could be PSA 9 with a "tiny wrinkle" qualifier.
A few more qualifiers are needed, especially to point out things such as pinholes in PSA 1 cards. I would also like to see slabbing dates stamped on the holder labels.
-
<< <i>You are saying that in the ironic style popularized by Da Big Hurt, right? >>
Good question. Depends on how good the card "doctor" is I guess. chaz
<< <i>The real question for MASTRO is does Dave Forman consign SGC graded cards to the last several auctions that he owns? >>
Mastro's has a know it all former grader from SGC named Derek. I wonder how that could be a conflict of interest?
<< <i>Amazing. I had no idea card doctoring was so prevalent. >>
If there's money to be made...
Not only IS the doctor in but the doctor makes housecalls!
Well let's just say a little birdie told me. So they will collect an additional 20 percent ontop of what there cards will go for. Some sets i don't think they will get back what they invested into them though. Even with the 20 percent being added.
@ed me off when i found this out because i'm sure they can see what people have actually bid on the auction unlike us.
If somebody say puts in a bid at 10,000 and nobody else bids and the bid is say at 7,000, what is stopping them to bid
there own cards up??? NOTHING !!
I'm done bidding on Mastro's stuff this time around. I bid on over 20 items and said screw it once i heard that MOSH is Mastro.
Steve
PS. Now you know why they raised it to 20 percent, because they are getting zero commission on there own sets and cards !!
Jeremy--the jig is up--time to confess all.
Jim
<< <i>Here's one that's even better, MOSH is actually Mastro auctions selling there cards for themselves. People often wondered who MOSH was.
Well let's just say a little birdie told me. So they will collect an additional 20 percent ontop of what there cards will go for. Some sets i don't think they will get back what they invested into them though. Even with the 20 percent being added.
@ed me off when i found this out because i'm sure they can see what people have actually bid on the auction unlike us.
If somebody say puts in a bid at 10,000 and nobody else bids and the bid is say at 7,000, what is stopping them to bid
there own cards up??? NOTHING !!
I'm done bidding on Mastro's stuff this time around. I bid on over 20 items and said screw it once i heard that MOSH is Mastro.
Steve
PS. Now you know why they raised it to 20 percent, because they are getting zero commission on there own sets and cards !! >>
I think you have your rumors mixed up..MOSH has a few of their sets in the latest Mastro auction, but MOSH=MASTRO is incorrect to my knowledge. I've dealt with the MOSH crew quite a bit, buying, selling and trading as Jeremy can attest...I've also purchased items from Mastro throughout the years and none of the people, names, numbers, addresses or e-mails are the same...It's possible MOSH has a new partnership with Mastro to auction some of their sets, but MOSH and Mastro simply aren't the same people or same organization...
Jason
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
<< <i>So thats it--i was wondering who this MOSH was with his 400 plus sets and unlimited supply of cash--and I thought it was funny I was getting outbid all the time. No wonder he is known as the Evil Empire. Boy, it would have saved me a lot of money if I knew I was bidding against Mastro . >>
Jim,
You should pose this question to Doug Allen on the 54 board. This would fit in with full disclosure of sets owned by an auction house.
This thread looks like a Tyson fight that's gone about 15 rounds (with a few ears bitten off and spit out)...
To soak or not to soak
I'm sure most of them are nice, decent guys, but I just don't get all the hate and anger about high grade cards, so what??
There's high grade of anything...packs, photos, programs, pins.
I got a PSA 8 '39 Playball last week. It's extremely common to find them with fat borders (in the famous/infamous PSA condom). I guess the trimmer didn't shave enough off the card I got....
It's interesting that the T206 set comes up alot on there as an example.
There's been 67,000 cards graded. 3,700 7's, 2,100 8's, 255 9's. That's about 6,000 high grade cards from the set. And you know a certain percent have been cracked and re-graded. Say the real number is 4,000-4,500.
There's an aweful lot of low grade T206's out there that have never been graded. You can bet your life it's multiples of the PSA 1-2 figure. If you conservatively add 20-30,000 more ungraded cards to the mix, you've got 4% of all T206's out there that survived in high grade. 2.1% being PSA 8's, a whopping 1/4th of 1 percent in PSA 9. And 13 PSA 10's out of 100,000.
It's funny, that's such a huge set (524 cards). 30,000 more cards = approx 60 ungraded examples of each card. It might well be 10-20-30 times that amount. Who knows. If you assume just 1,000 of each player still in existance, you're at 500,000 cards with less than 1 percent in high grade. It's a joke.
i would flip if my 1981 topps psa 7 mike tyson came back doctored ...
julen
RIP GURU
<< <i>Soaking a card is altering a card, and should not be allowed. End of story. >>
James
For the second time. SOAK THE ENTIRE CARD! There will be no halo or staining. I have been using tap water for 30 years so I know it works just fine. Baltimore tap water I use. I know different cities have different grades of city water so I can understand the distilled approach. I am just stating what works for me and I have thousands of cards to back me up. How many have you done? My point exactly. Face down or face up has never made a difference, the water dries out from both sides as the cloth is present on both sides. My T206 Plank has been soaked, 1933 Lajoie, 1910 Baltimore News. My only disaster, my 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. I soaked him too long and he floated into 2 pieces! The top and bottom came apart. I elmers glued it back together and it resides in an SGC holder. Dan.
<< <i>
For the second time. SOAK THE ENTIRE CARD! There will be no halo or staining. I have been using tap water for 30 years so I know it works just fine. Baltimore tap water I use. I know different cities have different grades of city water so I can understand the distilled approach. I am just stating what works for me and I have thousands of cards to back me up. How many have you done? My point exactly. Face down or face up has never made a difference, the water dries out from both sides as the cloth is present on both sides. My T206 Plank has been soaked, 1933 Lajoie, 1910 Baltimore News. My only disaster, my 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. I soaked him too long and he floated into 2 pieces! The top and bottom came apart. I elmers glued it back together and it resides in an SGC holder. Dan. >>
That is appalling.
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
<< <i>I'd love to see what PSA's response would be to the erasing/soaking of cards issue. I hope the PSA graders are adept at detecting these forms of alterations. >>
Sean
I could see bleaching since you can detect it by smell and black light I believe.
But soaking? It's done with distilled water - there'ld be no way to detect it IMO.
Also, I could see them missing erasing if distracted.
mike
Anyone who genuinely loves pre war cards because they think the cards are beautiful should give the whole third party grading industry the finger and just collect trimmed cards. I look at those Mayo Cut Plugs and I'm struck by the fact that I don't care about the flip. You get into cards that are that old, that are dripping with that kind of history, and the pictrure on the front becomes the point. The rest of the BS-- dimensions of the border and so on-- just become surface noise.
<< <i>
<< <i>
For the second time. SOAK THE ENTIRE CARD! There will be no halo or staining. I have been using tap water for 30 years so I know it works just fine. Baltimore tap water I use. I know different cities have different grades of city water so I can understand the distilled approach. I am just stating what works for me and I have thousands of cards to back me up. How many have you done? My point exactly. Face down or face up has never made a difference, the water dries out from both sides as the cloth is present on both sides. My T206 Plank has been soaked, 1933 Lajoie, 1910 Baltimore News. My only disaster, my 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. I soaked him too long and he floated into 2 pieces! The top and bottom came apart. I elmers glued it back together and it resides in an SGC holder. Dan. >>
That is appalling. >>
And also probably a lie. Anyone want to give me + odds that the yahoo who made this post actually soaked down 3 of the 10 most important cards in the hobby?
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
My father lost HUNDREDS of cards from a flood. Cards from the late 40s up to the early 60s.. Had them in a shoebox for over 30 years, in almost perfect condition, only to see them turn black, warp, and stuck together.
And people are "soaking" them on purpose?
They deserve to be drawn and quartered
<< <i>I just read the entire thread on soaking(I'm bored). I agree that it is altering the card. The post below is the one that disturbed me the most. The 52 Mantle thing really bothers me.
James
For the second time. SOAK THE ENTIRE CARD! There will be no halo or staining. I have been using tap water for 30 years so I know it works just fine. Baltimore tap water I use. I know different cities have different grades of city water so I can understand the distilled approach. I am just stating what works for me and I have thousands of cards to back me up. How many have you done? My point exactly. Face down or face up has never made a difference, the water dries out from both sides as the cloth is present on both sides. My T206 Plank has been soaked, 1933 Lajoie, 1910 Baltimore News. My only disaster, my 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle. I soaked him too long and he floated into 2 pieces! The top and bottom came apart. I elmers glued it back together and it resides in an SGC holder. Dan. >>
So many unscrupulous people alterring cards. Sometimes people in this hobby make me sick.
<< <i>Chaz, I agee with you for the most part. It seems though that these card doctors are getting cards past Joe Orlando and PSA. People like the guys who post on the Network 54 Forum ruin the hobby for everyone. >>
How?? How can you detect it if the experts at PSA can't?? And if they can't detect it, who says that the card has been messed with at all? Now we look at every graded card like it's been messed with? That's ridiculous. If PSA stands by the grade, then that's good enough for me. Just because a bunch of knuckleheads go on Network 54 and brag that they got a card passed PSA graders I detect some vindictiveness by the knuckleheads possibly because they received lower than expected grades from PSA. chaz
I would be interested to hear why people think this kind of behavior 'ruins' the hobby if the alterations being discussed are all but undetectable.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Chaz, I agee with you for the most part. It seems though that these card doctors are getting cards past Joe Orlando and PSA. People like the guys who post on the Network 54 Forum ruin the hobby for everyone. >>
How?? How can you detect it if the experts at PSA can't?? And if they can't detect it, who says that the card has been messed with at all? Now we look at every graded card like it's been messed with? That's ridiculous. If PSA stands by the grade, then that's good enough for me. Just because a bunch of knuckleheads go on Network 54 and brag that they got a card passed PSA graders I detect some vindictiveness by the knuckleheads possibly because they received lower than expected grades from PSA. chaz >>
LOL! I can almost guarantee you that you'll never get an answer to that question, chaz, because nobody can explain why they're so concerned about alterations if said alterations cannot be detected. >>
This whole thread is like chasing a ghost. Where is the proof???????? If it's altered, prove it. What about all the creases and wrinkles that are supposed to be "reappearing" and PSA has to "buy back" the card(s)? They all get traced back to the original submitter right? So, if it is such a huge problem and PSA has to "buy back" all these altered cards, then guess who they are going after? You guessed it....the original submitter and he's goin' down then. But guess what, it's not happening because PSA hasn't bought back hardly any cards (I know this for a fact) and alot of this is BULLCHIT. chaz
<< <i>If a car dealership rolls back odometers and no one can tell the difference, this is still considered unethical and illegal. >>
Not truly a valid comparison. Cars have wear and tear. A car with 75,000 miles on it has a lot more wear and tear (and is closer to the end of its useful life) than a car with 25,000 miles on it.
A card that has been soaked to remove scrapbook residue on the back simply is a card that had something added to it that was subsequently removed. A more valid comparison would be a car dealership that removed bumper stickers from trade-ins before selling them. That doesn't seem so bad, now does it?
<< <i>If a car dealership rolls back odometers and no one can tell the difference, this is still considered unethical and illegal. >>
I know what your saying Koby.....but HOW DO YOU KNOW????????? It's a GHOST ! chaz
Unlike dusting off an antique lamp or removing a bumper sticker on a car, removing paper can significantly improve the value of a card. The value could easily go up 5-10x by doing this.
I think there's also a difference in how easily you'd disclose this to a buyer.
If I sell an antique lamp on ebay, dusting it off won't mean much to the buyer. You wouldn't be the least bit hesitant to put that in your description. Same if you just washed your car, or put a coat of wax on. Or removed bumper sticker residue.
But would a card seller be so quick to disclose...oh by the way, this PSA 7 would have been a PSA 3, but I soaked it in some water to remove paper on the back. I was also worried about a "halo effect" but I got rid of that.
By default, if you're doing something to a card, and you worry about an adverse effect (a halo effect), don't you think you're screwing around with the integrity of the cardboard? Trying to get rid of or minimize something you've done to a card doesn't sound very good.
If I found a T206 Wagner in an attic with dust on it, I'd dust it off. Nobody would care about that in the least. There's no "wrong" way to dust off a card. You can't mess it up. You don't need a special duster to get the job done.
If I found a Wagner with a piece of the paper on the back. What would be your first reaction? Well how do I do it right? I hope I don't "mess it up". That's a clear fundamental difference between dusting.
If I'm worried about the type of water used, and worried about soaking it for too long, and worried about a "halo", and worried about him breaking into 2 pieces because I screwed up...those guys are going to down a dangerous moral road.
Warning signs to pay attention to....
-Worrying about messing up.
-Worrying about the right kind of solution
-Worying about doing it for too long
-Doing something to card that results in it ending up in 2 pieces.
And the big one for me, doing something to card that you want removed or that's "bad"or asking "how do I fix this".
Elmer glueing a Mantle back together and sticking it into an SGC holder is outrageously unethical. LOL, and SGC is always touted as the holy leader of pre war.