Mexico Cap & Rays 8R SET

coinkat

Has a full set ever been assembled? Is it even possible to put together a full set? Any thoughts?

TwoKopeiki

Separately a year/mint set is very doable, since there are so many available out there, but every mintmark/assayer/year would take quite some time and resources. We're talking hundreds and hundreds of coins here.

CIVITAS

Probably not technically possible. There are some issues where mintage records exist for the coins, but all were destroyed or lost.

coinpictures

Would be a daunting task, especially given all the overdates and repunches out there. I'm guessing Krause probably isn't close to complete on all the possible variations.

mrpotatoheadd

From Mexican Coin Magic, 05/30/06

World’s Greatest Cap & Ray 8 Reales Collection To Be Sold

Rick Ponterio has been making a few, very discreet; phone calls to advanced collectors interested in Mexican Republican Cap & Ray 8 Reales. His message is simple, “Don’t spend all of your money on new material until this fall!”

Rick’s message is that a well-known, and older California collector who currently owns the most complete 8 Reales and 4 Reales collection has consigned his coins to Ponterio & Associates. This long-time collector supposedly needs only two DAMs (Date/Assayer/Mintmarks) to complete his collection of 8 Reales and having taken note of the great prices being attained in the current “Bull Market” for Mexican coins has decided to part with his collection.

shirohniichan

<< <i>Mark your calendars for September 8th 2006 at the Anaheim Show and April 2007 at the CICF show. Oh bye the way, you better save up your money… because I’m going to be there! >>



Well, we'll see what is left for the sale in April.

How comprehensive is the most thorough guide book on the Mexican cap & rays 8 reales? What is the title of the best reference, also?

I have an 1875 (can't remember the mintmark or assayer at the moment) with strong doubling on the snake. I'm wondering if doubled dies are even catalogued.

Ah, here was my thread about it.

coinpictures

I'm very curious as to how many coins are in each series of this collection to be sold, given that it's supposedly one of the most complete out there.

shirohniichan

<< <i>I'm very curious as to how many coins are in each series of this collection to be sold, given that it's supposedly one of the most complete out there. >>



Yea, verily.

Does anyone have a Ponterio catalog from the September sale?

TwoKopeiki

<< <i>

<< <i>Mark your calendars for September 8th 2006 at the Anaheim Show and April 2007 at the CICF show. Oh bye the way, you better save up your money… because I’m going to be there! >>



Well, we'll see what is left for the sale in April.

How comprehensive is the most thorough guide book on the Mexican cap & rays 8 reales? What is the title of the best reference, also?

I have an 1875 (can't remember the mintmark or assayer at the moment) with strong doubling on the snake. I'm wondering if doubled dies are even catalogued.

Ah, here was my thread about it. >>



Shirohniichan, the most in-depth reference on Cap'N'Rays that I am aware of is "RESPLANDORES - CAP & RAYS 8 REALES OF MEXICO 1823-1897" by Mike Dunigan and J. B. Parker.

~Roman

bidask

Has anyone ever seen a nice original slabbed MS 65 of this series?

WWW

Has anyone ever seen a nice original slabbed MS 65 of this series?
Yes. I once owned a rainbow toned 8R in a OGH PCGS MS65. An 1863 MO TH.

In fact, I showed it off as my first post to the WACF.
1863 Mexican 8 Reales In PCGS 65

coinkat

<< <i>Has anyone ever seen a nice original slabbed MS 65 of this series? >>



Yes... and even higher...

IstilllikeZARcoins

shirohniichan in reference to your question regarding the 1875 PI MH 8 Reales.

Resplandores says 'No major varieties are known for this issue'.

I would be interested in seeing a close up photo of the doubling that you talk about.

Zar

TwoKopeiki

Hey, ZAR, could you look-up what the book says about these 2 guys?





Thanks in advance I am waiting for a copy to hit EBay, so I can purchase it, as well.

IstilllikeZARcoins

<< <i>Hey, ZAR, could you look-up what the book says about these 2 guys?





Thanks in advance I am waiting for a copy to hit EBay, so I can purchase it, as well. >>



Hi Roman,

The first coin is the most interesting.

Briefly: Rarity = Scarce.

Date continues with Die Style of 1824-1847.

Condition: generally found in VF. Often more sharply struck then other coins from this period. AU grade can be obtained with patience. A few choice specimens are known.

Variety: 1830 3/2 JM - Overdate with standard eagle
1830 JM - Normal date with standard eagle
1830 JM - Normal date with 8 Escudos eagle

Your coin obviously has the normal date with standard eagle.

Your second coin:

Die Style: 1824 - 1847

Rarity: Common

Condition: All grades available. UNC examples are scare. Usually weakly struck, often with planchet defects. EF & AU with decent strikes are not too difficult to locate. Sharp UNC coins are very scarce.

Varieties: No major varieties are known for this issue.


Both look like very nice coins though. Nice pick ups.

TwoKopeiki

Sweet Thanks. Picked those up from a local dealer in Pittsburgh. There are adjustment marks on the planchet, but they are not deep ones, so I would still grade this an EF45.

So ... have you decided if you're keeping the book, yet ?

IstilllikeZARcoins

I have a feeling that I will keep it but maybe Mrs IstilllikeZARcoins will make me change my mind.

I will let you know however if you find a reasonably priced copy before I get back to you then by all means pick it up.

Bailathacl

Roman, on the 1830 piece, what's going on with the 3 in 1830?

TwoKopeiki

So ... how can I get in touch with Mrs. ZAR ?



<< <i>Roman, on the 1830 piece, what's going on with the 3 in 1830? >>



Nothing, I believe. I'll take a closer look once I get home tonight. I haven't given these an acetone soak, yet, so it might be dirt.

shirohniichan

<< <i>shirohniichan in reference to your question regarding the 1875 PI MH 8 Reales.

Resplandores says 'No major varieties are known for this issue'.

I would be interested in seeing a close up photo of the doubling that you talk about.

Zar >>



The snake's head and eagle's wing show the doubling the best.

TwoKopeiki

Shirohniichan, that definitely looks like doubling.

Here's a 1849 San Louis Potosi Cap'n'Ray I've picked up recently:



What do you guys thing - adjustment marks on and below the left wing?

TwoKopeiki

Actually, after looking at the marks (which appear to be raised) - perhaps scratched die?

coinkat

Die polishing

TwoKopeiki

Shirohniichan, I forwarded your question to an expert on the series (swamperbob) and he had this to say about it:



<< <i>
Hi Roman,

Punch and hub doubling of the 8R series is a work in progress. Like my project on counterfeit varieties - it is the "dream" of a collector on the west coast who has been compiling a list for years. Right now off the top of my head, I can't remember which fellow is doing it, but we have communicated in the past. I had a copy of his file at one time and I had sent him a copy of my counterfeits list. Most of my correspondence from 1999 to 2005 was lost in a PC crash and the backup discs are for some reason also corrupted, so I may have to wait for him to write again.

Anyway, many double hubs are out there and no one knows exactly how many there are. They range all the way from individual letters to full standard hub doubles. Like the star burst clashes, they are popular and carry a premium.

The coin your friend has 1875 is most likely a full hub coin. Most dies by the mid 1870s were made with partial to full hubs. It is a major undertaking to establish just how dies were made in each year because of the slow evolution of technology and the periods of degradation that set in at some branch mints. In the early 1820s dies were made with individual element punches. These punches might be a cactus pad or a laurel leaf or the right wing of the eagle. At one point Durango used at least 7 punches to make the eagle. Over time, as equipment progressed bigger and bigger elemental punches were used. In the early 1840s, John Riddell calls them "King Punches". The entire eagle or the entire Cap and Rays might be on one punch. Nearly full hubs arrived in 1830 at Guanajuato. These hubs were nearly complete lacking the last digit of the date and the assayer initials. Guanajuato later in the 1840s reverted to smaller elemental punches. Durango in 1832 introduced the French made full hubs which degraded over the 1830s until the coin dies got pretty ugly. The crest on the Durango eagle's head was altered - the dates were altered (because the Do hubs had full dates and assayer initials on them). I guess the French contractors assumed that Mexico would buy fresh hubs every year, but the Mexicans just redated the dies made from the hubs which is why Do has so many overdates.

But before Maximillian, finishing touches were common on dies. I once did a study of a couple dozen dies used to make the 1844 Go coins (from a hoard) and discovered that the eagle's eye, nostril, tongue and lower beak were all cut into the dies individually. The cactus spines were also added one at a time.

Oaxaca has produced perhaps the most spectacluar doubled dies. I sold a nice MS 63 1861 Oa with a widely doubled eagle a few years ago. It came from a hoard discovered in Northen Mexico that I had access to. The file (attached) is incorrectly titled 1864. It has adjustment marks, but you can see that the eagle punch was doubled and rotated. The grading was done by ANACS and the final grade surprised me. They sent it to Ponterio for a second opinion because of how widely doubled the bird was. He had seen only one other from this die pair. I sold it for $1700 to a specialist collector in New England.

By the 1870s, most mints had die making presses that could press an entire die in one step. So I think your friend might be able to spot other traces of double hubbing.

I find it a fascinating subject and one of the reasons that I love the series.

Bob
>>



This guy is amazing.

shirohniichan

Thanks for the info, TwoKopeiki.

I'll see if I can find the coin and photograph it better.

shirohniichan

I really need to learn how to photograph coins.

The entire reverse is indeed doubled. The star and "8RPI" on the obverse are also repunched. It's a nice BU coin, but it looks like it was struck from some really reworked dies.