How bad is your set?

QUIK

Well not bad just wondering how low the GPA on your current set is? Im very proud of my 1914 cracker jack sets 1.81 gpa and im at 40% complete! I was just curious what you guys had going in this lower range ? We always hear of the high grade sets well those are nice but cmon a low gpa set put together slowly now thats fun hope all are well Jeff

lostdart58

I think putting together an almost 100 year old set in ANY condition is an accomplishment.

RipublicaninMass

ted's collections
1911 T205 Gold Border


Weighted GPA: 3.00

XanaduNow

<< <i>I think putting together an almost 100 year old set in ANY condition is an accomplishment. >>



Completely agree. Sure, obtaining cards like that in high grade is great but I think we forget just how hard finding them at all is. The high grade stuff is just a matter of determining who has more disposable income. Your set sounds like it's being pieced together by a lover of the cards themselves and no one can take that away from you.

Congarts!

Arthur

benderbroeth

i have to agree with everyone here i mean all my older sets are low grade..that way i can afford the entire set..

Griffins

After reading Doug Allen's responses to what Mastro feels is legitimate restoration to cards ( This thread ) I think low grade is the safest way to go.

Davalillo

Anthony,

I think you can interpret the answers as being that the problem is at least as prevalent (if not more so) in lower to mid grade cards.

Jim

Griffins

Jim- I have no doubt you are right, and think it's much easier for someone to make a 2 into a 4 than a 7 into a 9. But the cost difference between lower grades is not nearly as big as on the higher ones, and it hurts the wallet a lot less. Either way the openness of some of the prime players in this episode is both astonishing and disturbing to me, and I think it's safe to say that one of my prime sources of cards over the last 7 years will certainly not be the prime source over the next 7.
Thank you for starting such a frank and honest discussion of arguably the main problem in the hobby today. Observing you ask key questions like this both in person and on message boards has taught me a lot, and benefitted me both inside and outside the hobby. Keep 'em coming.

thesplendidsplinter

<< <i>Thank you for starting such a frank and honest discussion of arguably the main problem in the hobby today. Observing you ask key questions like this both in person and on message boards has taught me a lot, and benefitted me both inside and outside the hobby. Keep 'em coming. >>



Cannot tell you how much I have learned in the last few days so I too repeat Anthony's thoughts. Thanks to opening up the classroom.

I am at 15.34% done with a 5.18 GPA on my '15 Cracker Jacks & after everything I have read this weekend, I may just be focusing on 3's & 4's from now on. SOOOO much easier on the pocketbook & won't be any questionable thoughts on my part.

Also, to get back to the original thought of the thread, ANY set over 50 years old completed in any condition is an accomplishment & makes you feel great!

Davalillo

Thank you guys.

I have learned a tremendous amount as well. I certainly underestimated the problem here.

I would not be surprised to see high end graded cards go down in value as a result of this and related discussions--which hurts me in the wallet--but it is for the good of the hobby (I think).

Jim

Griffins

Jim-
It only hurts you on paper in the short run. As you have stated that you don't plan on selling I doubt you'll ever feel it.
In the long run it's a different story. If this gets resolved someway, and collectors faith in there purchases remains strong, then everyone will benefit from a stronger, more confident market. If this continues it may well cause many to walk away and less to take up the hobby.

Bosox1976

It was a heckuva read. Honesty was refreshing. Silence generally indicates agreement, and in this case it speaks volumes on some who did not reply.

Jim - I got a kick out of your tongue-in-cheek line. Give 'em heck.

braves72078

I have always enjoyed low to mid grade cards. I am by no means rich enough to go after 9's and 10's (which may now be 7's and 8'????) but I still enjoy cards and collecting and by no means veiw them as an investment. Have FUN collecting is what its all about isn't it???

Bill

MorrellMan

Of course, the Doug Allen thread is incredibly interesting and of up-to-date importance to this hobby.
But in the interest of keeping this thread from being totally jacked, I submit my 1910 Obak set, 1/8 complete with a 4.07 gpa and a resounding 0.43 set rating.

Griffins

Mark, you're right. Jeff, I apologize for hijacking your thread.
I've got 11% of a T3 set, with a GPA of 1.87 Pinholes are very common in T3's, and get an automatic 1 from PSA. I'll take a set of sharp cornered pinholed PSA 1's anyday.

Slabbed

Guys wake up and smell the roses, Why do you think Tom Candioti and John Branca are trying to get out of the hobby. Where there is money to be made there is going to be somebody there trying to make it. As far as grading services it is not an exact science it is a persons opinion on a card.

Mitochondria

Wow! That thread on card restoration was pretty insightful. To hear that an auction house participates in the rehabilitation of an item(s) that is cosigned to it including directly interacting with grading companys gives a whole new meaning to comprehensive service. Nevertheless, I still believe that third party grading has brought trust back into the hobby. I don't buy the argument that the "high prices" have created an escalation in card tampering. It is probable that the opposite has happened. The pressure that third party graders have brought to bear on unscrupulous individuals who seek to doctor and artificially overgrade cards has created confidence in the collecting community. I have been burned with the purchase of overgraded cards in third party holders, but this has been a rarity. Overall, I am very pleased with the state of our hobby compared to the way things were before independent card grading came along.

My 2 cents,

Ron Sanders

Davalillo

Ron,

That is an interesting perspective and one I happen to agree with. Things were far worse pre-grading companies when collectors lost complete faith in the hobby because of the widespread alteration of cards.

However, lets assume that Rob Lifson and others are right and that there is "sophisticated" restoration of cards going on here by employees of auction companies. You also have the president of the biggest auction house in the hobby admitting to taking light creases out of the cards before submitting them. If the ability to restore cards advances to the level at which the PSA and SGC cannot detect it then we are back in a bad situation where collectors will once again lack confidence in graded cards. I am not saying we are there--my goal is to get all major dealers to talk about what they will and will not do to cards and to get people like Dave Forman and Joe Orlando involved as well--I see them as the good guys here.

Jim

interchanges

I just started a 1935 Goudey set in the PSA 3 range.

Ya know what? It's fun!

Sheez, you get all wound up with high grade sets, how much should I snipe? Will I ever get #265 in an 8? What about MOSH? He's gonna make me pay. This is costing me a fortune, I'll never finish it. I'll be forced to sell at 50%.
Not with low graders.
I just got a SGC VG common for $9.99!

fandango

Jim, not sure if i was sad or mad about reading that thread.....

The main problem i have with the thread is that people simply want to add a Disclosure to the auctions, stating that the cards were altered (creases removed)....However, when the card is sold the next time, where is the disclosure? Eventually (10-20 years from now) these altered Auction House cards will be dispersed throughout the world in all different collections, but does the "disclosure" follow these card around?
The answer is NO.....so what the industry will be left with is high end cards that were doctored by the auction houses, in HIGH END HOLDERS. but nobody will know in 20 years that a card was sold with a disclosure...you see the problem?

It is starting to seem that the biggerst "doctorers" of cards is the auction houses..what a shame.....

PSA needs to be better as finding these doctored cards (and not give preferential treatment to auction houses) or we are all in trouble....

koby

Someone should be arrested.

hofcollectoronly

Just have to ask and not that I condone it but is restoring a vintage card illegal? It's not like conterfieting US dollars and if the grading companies let it slip through there system then it is them to be at fault. With technology available today you would think that the grading companies would come to the 21st century and use some equipment to verify the cards. There has to be a machine that can measure the thinkness of a card to determine if it has been pressed or wrinkles ironed out.

Griffins

From what I understand altering a card and selling it in California without disclosure is fraud. Not sure about other states.

Goodsport40

Slabbed, where did you see that Candioti is getting out of the hobby? I must have missed that. Wasn't he featured in the SMR magazine this past year? Just curious.

Robert

1954

When I read through the Network 54 topic of altered cards, I was not shocked one bit on the information given. Altering cards has been around for a long time and this will continue for many more years to come. It is important to know who you buy from at all times, but more importantly you need to buy the card and not the holder. Jim, you are a huge collector and have tons of money invested into your collection. I believe that a large percent of your collection has not been "worked" on because your primary part of your collection ranges from 1952-1969 and also because you had these sets raw before grading was a fad. There are many cards today that are being graded that has had some sort of alteration to it. If you consider alteration as a pressed down corner then you will find many cards as altered on Ebay, in your collection and in dealers inventory. Pressing down a corner or removing a wax stain with panty hose has been done for years and your are never going to be able to tell that this has been done - not PSA, SGC or GAI. Giving a card a little trim job is considered "altering" and should be frowned on by us as collectors.
Have you ever been to a dealers table and noticed that every one of their PSA 8's look just as good as their PSa 9/10? When I first noticed this back about 5 years ago, I thought to myself "why aren't these dealers resubmitting these?" The reason is they "perform" the same alterations to all the cards mid to high grade. They all have this incredible gloss or have the sharpest corners but fall short of a PSA 9/10. Has anyone ever cracked out any of these high quality 8's before? Most of these come back trimmed.
I believe PSA and SGC are doing the best they can to prevent these from being holdered, however the laying down of a corner is just not going to be caught by a grading company. If any of this bothers you, you need to leave the card collecting now so you don't get your feelings hurt on your next purchase. Buy the card and buy it from a collector/dealer that you know of.
Lastly, here is another eye opening point of view. This fad of grading is just that. PSA is the number one choice for 1950's and up. Someday there will be a new sheriff in town and the fad will be to have your cards holdered by them. They might be more technologically advanced or the graders might have better knowledge than that of "other" grading companies. Be very careful when playing this game of grading. It reminds me of the game we all played as kids with the chairs in the middle of the room. One less chair than the participants and the music is going. When the music stops- who is left all alone.


Shane

Davalillo

Shane,

I hope its not me.

Provacative thread--and I agree with most of it.

You should post on network 54--you have a lot to add.

Jim

PROMETHIUS88

I'll have to agree with Shane in that guys like Jim (and of course Branca) that have the "monster" collections wouldn't be hurt. They are well known and a lot of the cards in their collections are even well documented. If a collection from a major "player" becomes available, I would be more confident bidding on their items than something from someone I don't know, even if they are graded the same. I would tend to think this should make Jim's collection more valuable over time. We all know that the hobby will not die as there are too many of us enthusiats who just couldn't bear to go on without it. We would just be willing to pay more money for cards we know are of "genuine" high quality.
But, just in case there are some of you that feel you need to unload all your high end vintage material at a low price before it is worth nothing, shoot me an im.

Tim