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Philadelphia vs Branch Mint Proof Morgans

In your opinion and experience, what are the similarities and differences between Morgan dollar proofs made at Philadelphia versus so-called “branch mint proofs” made at one of the other mints? Should the definition of “proof” be the same under all conditions for Morgan dollars?

Thanks!

Comments

  • proof: a coin deliebrately intended to have special surfaces and an exceptionally sharp strike
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Should the definition of “proof” be the same under all conditions for Morgan dollars?

    The definition should be the same, but the fabric may differ.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Despite the commonly held belief that all master dies were manufactured at Philadelphia and then used to create working dies to be distributed amongst branch Mints, that would likely be the extent of commonality. There was no standard set by law for striking equipment(presses), or die/planchet/collar preparation. Even very slight variances in methods of prep or striking pressure would lead me to believe noticeable differences between Proofs from Philadelphia and the branch Mints exist.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com

  • dragondragon Posts: 4,548 ✭✭
    One difference is that the proof Morgans made at the Philly mint were struck on the huge hydraulic medal presses that the branch mints didn't have, so they probably needed to turn up the pressure on the regular coining press along with using polished planchets, and the coins were hand fed into the press and struck at least twice.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    what are the similarities and differences between Morgan dollar proofs made at Philadelphia versus so-called “branch mint proofs” made at one of the other mints?

    First, consider the Philly proofs. The fabric of the coins differs from date to date, and from coin to coin. Some dates tend to have better mirrors, some tend to be cameos, some have rims that are more squared, some have slightly concave fields, etc.

    As for the Branch Mint proofs, their fabric also differs from date to date. Given the situation with Philly proofs, this should be no surprise. Only the 1879-0 and 1893-CC proofs are no-brainer proofs. The Eliasberg 83-O is also reasonably compelling, but not a slam dunk. Other dates for which some pieces could be called proof, but probably more appropriately should be considered "specimens", are 1878-S, 1891-CC, 1895-O, 1896-O, 1921 "Zerbe" (the Chapmans are fully "proof"), and 1921-S. I've also seen 1883-S, 1892-S, and 1895-S dollars that might qualify as "specimens".

    The 83-CC and 84-CC dollars that have been called proofs may be something special, or not. There are too many business strikes so close in fabric to the so-called proofs that I am unsure what the coiner had in mind when the first coins from the dies were struck.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭
    RWB-

    Does contemporary evidence exist to support specimen status of any of the so-called BMPRs? Or do we just have the coins themselves?
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    That's part of the reason for my questions...to see what pops out of the woodwork.
  • CoxeCoxe Posts: 11,139
    David McCarthy and I had an interesting discussion on this at the last FUN's NSDR dinner. He did some interesting research at the National Archives and I would hate to misrepresent it. I believe there was something about the CC Mint and San Fran Mint exchanging specimen strikes that may have been extraordinarily struck for the purpose. I don't think it was for assay but am not sure. Proof strikes at the branch mints as favors for big collectors seem unlikely prior to 1893, that would be before Heaton's book that promoted considering mint marks in collecting US coins. The commencement of striking Morgans at a branch mint or its closing also might have been occasions. I think 1900 is an overlooked candidate year for them as well. (I have a nice DMPL that would be a consideration.) The occasion of a proof strike would differ at those mints as they were not accustomed to it and their presses not prepared to do it properly. Planchet preparation too would not be part of a systematic process like in Philadelphia. As I am not sure there exists documentation specifically authorizing proof strikings at those mints, it might be wrong to even call them proofs but they would still warrant premiums as exceptional pieces.
    Select Rarities -- DMPLs and VAMs
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  • Branch Mint Proof - New Orleans

    image
    Brandon Kelley - ANA - 972.746.9193 - http://www.bestofyesterdaycollectibles.com
  • JulianJulian Posts: 3,370 ✭✭✭
    I have owned and perhaps discovered the 83-O PF from the Bergen collection that I sold to Wayne Miller, the 93-cc that I sold to Bruce Todd and subsequently became known as the Todd specimen, and a 95-O that I purchased from Bob Bender in Ind, sold to Art Leister and subsequently to Kenny Duncan that I believe that Jack Lee owned.

    These were all proofs, IMHO, and I just knew it when I saw it. Numismatic intuition. The fabric was not noticably different and that is why I knew it.

    There are others that have been called proofs that I am not so certain of, but I am certain of these.

    Others may have different opinions and that is just fine. No one is perfect, myself obviously included.

    Brandon's picture of the 79-O is obviously that of a proof and a simply spectacular coin.

    Does Adrian know that he pilfered it from inventory?

    To this post today, 7/2/09, I will add the 1892-O proof dollar. It is very interesting to me that nearly three years after the initial post, that I said almost the exact same thing when this 92-O was the subject of another post last week.
    PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows.
    I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.

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  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Brandon's picture of the 79-O is obviously that of a proof and a simply spectacular coin.

    Does Adrian know that he pilfered it from inventory?



    image
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • anablepanablep Posts: 5,022 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Any new pictures of branch mint proofs?

    I'd love to see some...
    Always looking for attractive rim toned Morgan and Peace dollars in PCGS or (older) ANA/ANACS holders!

    "Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."


    ~Wayne

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