All-Time running backs better than Tomlinson?
gregmo32
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Which running backs would you say have been better than Tomlinson? And if you want to answer it a bit hypothetically, who will still be considered "better" when LT's career is over?
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LT is running with more strength and determination now than when the season started - amazing seeing we are 10 games in.
Dave
Good point. Roger Craig, too. But neither of those guys were as explosive or as unstoppable as LT has been this year. The test, though, will be if he can keep it up over time.
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Jason
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<< <i>your all fooling yourself....nobody was, is, or will ever be as good as Barry Sanders...PEROID. >>
Loth, I hear that PEROIDS are quite uncomfortable. Is this true?
ps, I will let you slide on that offensive Barry Sanders comment this time. We all know that Emmitt was the best ever rb and dancer of all time
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Joe
<< <i>your all fooling yourself....nobody was, is, or will ever be as good as Barry Sanders...PEROID. >>
I agree with this except for the ever will be part. Barry Sanders is the best ever but I'm not ruling out that someday, someone will be better.
Most fun to watch-Barry Sanders, Gale Sayers and OJ Simpson-They could cause a would be tackler to darn near break his ankles trying to figure which way they were going to go. All three were all time greats, but not the greatest of all time. Some crucial parts of playing winning football are: moving the chains, winning the time of possession battle, and being able to pound it out when you have a lead. these guys could take it to the house on any touch, but also were tackled for losses a lot, not involved with goal line and short yardage situations. Giving the ball to Barry Sanders was like throwing a bomb on every play. High risk high reward,but too many punts and not enough rest for the defense. Again, I'm not bashing any of these guys, but it is not a coincidence that runners with this style rarely play on winning teams.
All around play-Walter Payton, Marcus Allen, Marshall Faulk, Tony Dorsett-These guys could run ,catch ,block, throw, pick up the tough short yardage and blitzes and were not just great running backs, but were great "football players". No coincidence that there teams had some level of success. Roger Craig is another guy with this style, but not to the level of the others.
Pounders-Earl Campbell, Jim Brown, Jim Taylor, Franco Harris, John Riggins,-These guys carried the ball a lot and wore you down, yet could still take it long if they got through the initial line of defense. Not great pass catchers, but on 4th and inches-Look out! Again for the most part, winning teams. Jerome Bettis and George Rogers were lesser versions of this type back. (some of these guys were fullbacks)
Emmitt Smith, Curtis Martin, Edgerrin James, and I'm sure a few I'm forgetting, belong somewhere in the conversation.
LT could be one of the best, still needs to keep it going.
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I still believe what Bill Parcells said about O.J. Anderson...."there is only so much tread on the tire...."
As LT has more touches, he will get more hits, with more hits, injuries can happen and shorten HOF careers.
Two who played till the tread was gone, and had the best overall impact at every phase of the game were Payton, and Emmitt..
RP
BTW baseball, I consider Jerry Rice the best football player of all time.
Joe
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>LT is closest to Marshal Faulk, he is a slashing type running back. Living in San Diego, I've seen almost every game LT has played, and he gets better and better. >>
OJ is the most prolific slasher of all...
#1: Jim Brown
#2: Barry Sanders
#3: Walter Payton
#4: Emmitt Smith
I have no clear #5. The gap between #4 and #5 is greater than the gap between #1 and #4, in my opinion.
Joe
After Brown left, Cleveland had two RB's that ran for over 5 yards a carry and had 750 or more yards (Leroy Kelly - 5.5/1141 & Ernie Green - 5.2 /750) in '66. Kelly (5.5 /1205) & Green (4.9 /710) did well again the next year (1967) and Kelly took on most of the load in 1968 running for 1239 yards while averaging 5 yards per carry. In '67 & '68, Kelly also finished the season leading the NFL in rushing.
Now to compare, the Lions best rusher averaged 3.0 yards in 1988, 3.6 in 1987, 3.6 in 1986, etc... Their team never had a winning record (usually not even close) during that time. Barry averages 5.2 in 1989, then 5.1 in 1990, etc... He always remained above 4, usually closer to 5 and had a couple of great seasons in '94 (5.7 / 1883) and '97 (6.1 /2053). And during that time, they made the playoffs like 4 times, but only mustered 1 playoff win.
After Barry left, their leading rusher averaged 3.8 in '99 & 3.5 in '00... They haven't made the playoffs since Barry left, nor have they had a full time back who has been able to carry the load without injury.
My point is simply that Jim Brown was drafted by a solid team. A team that had experienced recent success not only by record, but by running the ball as well. After he left, they continued to have some success at both. Barry came to a bad team that couldn't run. While he was there, they actually went to the playoffs on occasion and they became a running threat. When he left, they returned to being a bad team that couldn't run. To me, that says that his production with the team was more impressive than Browns merely because he didn't have a real supporting cast (team).
As for Tomlinson, there's still quite a few that are better than him at this point IMO. I really don't value the touchdowns as much as many do simply because that's a situational stat. He has been putting up some very good numbers all around though, and remained durable to boot. If he continues to do so for another 5 years, we'll truly be able to talk about him as possibly being one of the best ever.
All that said... The best RB I ever saw was Bo Jackson. It was just so brief and then it was over. Too too bad...
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Someone made a point of saying Brown could not play today and Tomlinson would have been even better then. You cannot compare between eras. You compare guys to their contemporaries. In baseball pitchers 100 years ago put up gaudy numbers because they pitched so much more frequently. Therefore you cannot compare season numbers then to now. Guys now will always have signifcantly lower numbers. As a result you cannot fairly compare the two. No matter how you weight it, you are saying one or the other is not as good because of their era. Guys cannot help when they played. In football it is the reverse. Players put up lower numbers when Brown played pretty much accross the board. This was the result of a combination of shorter seasons and much more conservative offenses. His HOF contemporaries had numbers like this: Hornung 3711 yds, Gifford 3609 yds, Lenny Moore 5174 yards, Hugh McElhenny 5281 yards, Jim Talor 8597 yards, and Jim Brown 12312 yards. You see how phenomenally better Brown's number are compared to any other HOF running back of his time. The fact that he played in this era and still owns so many records is astounding. As I said before, if LT keeps up his current pace for three or four more years, he will definitely be in the thick of the discussion with Brown. However, at this time he has not played long enough. As for Sanders, Payton, and Smith, they all have more career yards on Brown and that is it. Brown even has more receiving touchdowns then any of them.
<< <i>They had Otto Graham (HOF), Marion Motley (HOF), Frank Gatski (HOF), Lou Groza (HOF), Bill Willis (HOF), Mike McCormack (HOF), and Dante Lavelii (HOF) all played for the late forties early fifties Brown. All but Groza and McCormack were retired by '56. Motley and Graham, the key guys, had retired in '53 and '55 respectively. They were a bad team when they got Brown as shown by their below .500 record in '56. They became instantly solid again with Brown. They eventually won a title with Brown in "65. They have not won a championship since Brown retired. That is 41 years in case you are wondering. The only other Brown in HOF that played with Brown not on the above list is Paul Warfield, and he got there in Brown's second to last season. Brown made that team great by himself. Sanders cannot say that. One other thing, Warfield played in one game and had 3 catches in '65 when they won the NFL championship.
Someone made a point of saying Brown could not play today and Tomlinson would have been even better then. You cannot compare between eras. You compare guys to their contemporaries. In baseball pitchers 100 years ago put up gaudy numbers because they pitched so much more frequently. Therefore you cannot compare season numbers then to now. Guys now will always have signifcantly lower numbers. As a result you cannot fairly compare the two. No matter how you weight it, you are saying one or the other is not as good because of their era. Guys cannot help when they played. In football it is the reverse. Players put up lower numbers when Brown played pretty much accross the board. This was the result of a combination of shorter seasons and much more conservative offenses. His HOF contemporaries had numbers like this: Hornung 3711 yds, Gifford 3609 yds, Lenny Moore 5174 yards, Hugh McElhenny 5281 yards, Jim Talor 8597 yards, and Jim Brown 12312 yards. You see how phenomenally better Brown's number are compared to any other HOF running back of his time. The fact that he played in this era and still owns so many records is astounding. As I said before, if LT keeps up his current pace for three or four more years, he will definitely be in the thick of the discussion with Brown. However, at this time he has not played long enough. As for Sanders, Payton, and Smith, they all have more career yards on Brown and that is it. Brown even has more receiving touchdowns then any of them. >>
The Browns were not a bad team when Brown arrived, but nearly had 1 bad year prior to his arrival. Granted, Graham was gone but Plum was no slouch during his stint. They also had plenty of other solid players /Pro Bowlers during his time there. After he left, Leroy Kelly was basically one of the leagues premier backs for some time and Green was very good for a time too. Their team could run... Before Brown came, they were a solid running team in '55 and before. After Brown left, they remained good and still ran the ball very well. Just because they had 1 bad year in '56 doesn't mean he saved a bad team. They obviously weren't bad. You're saying that if a player isn't in the HOF, then they weren't good? They had plenty of Pro Bowlers on their team during Browns time in Cleveland, often with two from the O-line. He didn't make that team great by himself. He helped them be great. There were other average RB's on that team putting up decent numbers too. Barry didn't make his team great. He made them competitive, which they weren't before he arrived or since he has left.
60's Jim Brown
70's OJ Simpson
80's Walter Payton
90's Barry Sanders
00's Ladainian Tomlinson
As I said earlier in the thread, NFL history is littered with backs that dominated for 2 or 3 years and then faded away. NFL running backs have one of the shortest career expectancies in professional sports: about 3 years. How many 30 year old starting RBs are in the league? There are 4, and Dillon is rapidly losing his job to Maroney, Fred Taylor is rapidly losing his job to Jones-Drew, Tiki is retiring, and Warrick Dunn has nothing left in the tank. Only 1 of the 5 top rushers from 5 years ago is still a starter.
Joe
Sorry, had to do it with everyone agreeing for once
By TIM DAHLBERG - AP Sports Columnist
2006-12-20 20:03
Marty Schottenheimer is already convinced, though he might be a bit biased. His job, after all, pretty much hangs on what LaDainian Tomlinson can do with his legs.
Tomlinson's teammates certainly believe, though their futures also are intertwined with L.T. When a guy invites the rest of the team into the end zone to celebrate his accomplishments with him, it's hard not to feel a certain kinship.
And, if the rest of the country had its doubts, they were erased in a prime-time performance Sunday night that might be one for the ages.
With two games left in the regular season, it's come down to this: We're beyond talking about whether Tomlinson will win the MVP because he has that wrapped up.
Now, it might be time to start talking about something else.
Could Tomlinson be - or become - the greatest running back ever? After six years in the league, is it time to begin mentioning him in the same breath as the great Jim Brown and others?
His coach says it's past that time.
``I believe he is the finest running back to ever wear an NFL uniform,'' Schottenheimer said.
Excuse Schottenheimer while he hypes the player who just might carry the Chargers deep into the playoffs and possibly get him over that final hump to the Super Bowl.
The thing is, Tomlinson needs no hyping. He's that good.
Here's the NFL season records he has set already this year:
Most touchdowns - 31.
Most touchdowns rushing - 28.
Consecutive games with multiple TDs - 8.
Most points - 186.
Oh, yeah, he also has thrown for two touchdowns. Put it all together and L.T. (with extra points) has had a hand in more than half of San Diego's 445 points, nearly outscoring the opposition all by himself.
If the question of being the greatest ever might not be a legitimate one quite yet, the reality is it might not be as far off as you think.
Breaking a record set 46 years ago and piling on a bunch of others this season alone is a good place to start if comparisons are going to be made with great backs like Brown, Walter Payton, Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith.
Great backs also have great games in the spotlight, like Tomlinson did with an 85-yard touchdown run Sunday night against the Kansas City Chiefs.
``It's happening so much now, I can't keep up anymore,'' Tomlinson said afterward. ``To be honest, I don't want to keep up. I just keep rolling.''
He breaks records as easily as some teammates get into trouble (five Chargers arrested in the last year) and others take steroids. Six years into his career, he's the glue that holds a sometimes dysfunctional team together.
No wonder Schottenheimer loves the guy. His whole team loves him.
What's not to love about a player who is so humble he always gives credit to his offensive line and any other teammate on the field. A player who doesn't preen and pose, as is the custom these days.
A player who doesn't mind being called upon to pick up the blitz and throw a block if it helps his team.
``The biggest thing I tell people is if your son or your child is ever going to be a superstar or famous, you want them to be like him,'' right tackle Shane Olivea said. ``He's the most humble, unassuming, laid-back person you can encounter.
``He's what's right and what's good about the NFL.''
Too bad it's taken the NFL so long to embrace him. Tomlinson is closing in on 9,000 yards and has scored 111 touchdowns since the Chargers basically traded their Michael Vick pick for him six years ago. Only now is he starting to get his just due.
If Tomlinson were playing in Philadelphia, they would be building a statue for him downtown. In New York, he'd have a restaurant named after him and maybe a stadium to follow.
But he's in San Diego, far from the East Coast media spotlight and a place where more people go to the beach than the stadium on any given NFL Sunday.
Still, Tomlinson's play this year has been extraordinary. His numbers so far in his career are even better than those of Smith, Payton, Brown and Sanders at the same point in their careers.
Brown is considered by many the best back to ever play the game, a man who played against boys. He averaged over 5 yards a carry, and the only knock on him is he quit after nine years and doesn't have the gaudy numbers of those who have followed.
If he stays healthy, Tomlinson will have more career touchdowns next year than Brown, and likely will pass him in total yards the following season. Then it's just a matter of playing long enough to pass the others.
Schottenheimer aside, it's too early just yet to anoint Tomlinson the best ever. Employed in a dangerous profession, he might get injured and never get a chance at the mythical prize.
A few more years like this one, though, and his name will go to the top of a lot of lists.
----
Tim Dahlberg is a national sports columnist for The Associated Press. Write to him at tdahlbergap.org
<< <i>If it matters to anyone, Barry Sanders has repeatedly held that the best running back of all time, by a clear margin, is Jim Brown. >>
I would guess that is because that's what his father has told him since birth... even while he was playing. Barry is a modest guy, so I think he would likely say there were plenty of players better than he was.
Again, people have their reasons for why they feel one player was better than another. I am not sure if I've ever said any one player was the best at his position in any sport. It's so hard to say what any one player could have done with a different team/coach or in another era. I simply like to point out that I believe some players benefitted from advantageous situations that others did not, so that may have helped them to succeed. I believe Brown had a much better team in front of him than Barry ever did. Same goes for Tomlinson.
Not only in my opinion is Jim Brown the greatest football player of all time, but the second best athlete of all time, second only to Jim Thorpe.
<< <i>Jim Brown. Case closed.
Not only in my opinion is Jim Brown the greatest football player of all time, but the second best athlete of all time, second only to Jim Thorpe. >>
Opinions vary,
Barry Sanders. Case closed.
Bo Jackson was the best athlete of all time.
<< <i>
<< <i>Jim Brown. Case closed.
Not only in my opinion is Jim Brown the greatest football player of all time, but the second best athlete of all time, second only to Jim Thorpe. >>
Opinions vary,
Barry Sanders. Case closed.
Bo Jackson was the best athlete of all time. >>
Barry Sanders couldn't wear Jim Brown's jockstrap.
Also, any list that has greats on it will be filled with should haves, would haves, and could haves. If Bo Jackson this, and Gale Sayers that, Terrell Davis this.....we can all say that, but it is what it is.
I keep hearing from many that Barry Sanders was the greatest ever, but I wanted to say something on that. As a fan, there is no one I would rather watch as he was the most exciting player I've ever seen (a true human highlight reel). As a coach, there are about 10 guys I would rather have than him. We need to remember that for every 30+ yard run, he also had a loss in his rushing totals. I once heard that at one point, no one had more negative yards running than he did. As a coach, that would drive me up the wall. But then again, I'm no coach and am a fan, so he's on my top 5 list.
And Jim Brown is the best runner ever. He was a living dream. Every one wishes they were a running back that was way bigger than an average lineman back then. That is what made him great. Size, strength, and speed.
As far as best all around running back, I still believe that sweetness is the standard to beat. Sweetness was a great runner (not the best), a great blocker, a passer, and receiver. If LT continues to do what he is doing, he will far surpass what Sweetness did. Even then it will be difficult to compare as we are in different eras.
One name that is missing is Curtis Martin. This guy quietly will go down as one of the best ever. More so that his running, I tuned in to watch his blocking. Anyone want to share thoughts on Curtis Martin?
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Jim Brown. Case closed.
Not only in my opinion is Jim Brown the greatest football player of all time, but the second best athlete of all time, second only to Jim Thorpe. >>
Opinions vary,
Barry Sanders. Case closed.
Bo Jackson was the best athlete of all time. >>
Barry Sanders couldn't wear Jim Brown's jockstrap. >>
Your right it would be way too small