Full Union - a silver or gold fantasy coin without COPY?

xbob

Here's something odd. I saw an ad in a magazine (Popular Science) for a Morgan Designed $100 Full Union coin minted in Silver. Apparently the Smithsonian has endorsed this thing and provided Morgans original sketches for the coin design. Since the coin was never actually minted, this fantasy coin does not have to have COPY stamped into it because technically it isn't a replica (they say). That seems very strange to me. Is that really legal? They are sold in NGC slabs for $99. That's pretty steep for a 1.5 oz. silver round IMHO, but the design is really nice and attractive. No mention of a mintage limit.

There was no website listed in the ad (only an 800#) so I Googled and found some online. One site selling the mentioned silver ones and another selling gold ones (1 oz. of .999) for just under $3600. Sheesh... that makes the US Mint look like saints for selling the Buffalo proofs at $800. Notice also that the NGC label looks like it is over printed onto the colored area of the slab insert on the gold example. Doh!

Personally, I'll pass but I thought it was interesting enough to share.

Here's some pics trolled from the web sites: (nevermind)

edit: pics removed since they went poof and changed to red X's. I think maybe I was too honest about them not being my pics. Warning taken. See link in post below for an image.

Zoins

The silver ones are on the New York Mint website along with several other tribute coins. The "$100 Union" was a design exercise and may not have even been submitted to the US Mint. It certainly wasn't accepted if it was. The word 'COPY' isn't necessary since there was never a real coin with this design to copy. The NGC slab is probably a marketing bulk deal along the lines of the PCGS death slabs, notice how they say 'Gem Uncirculated' (also like the death slabs) and don't have grades. The main determiner of value for these things is whether anyone will want to buy them after they are sold out. These would be more interesting if they had low mintage limits but I think their goal is to sell as many as possible.

XpipedreamR

Any more info on the legal aspects? Here's the gold version:

RichieURich

Someone brought one of these to my table at Baltimore to sell, but I passed because I wasn't familiar with it. Thanks for providing the information!

Zoins

<< <i>Someone brought one of these to my table at Baltimore to sell, but I passed because I wasn't familiar with it. Thanks for providing the information! >>

How much did he want for it?

RichieURich

It was the silver one and we didn't get to the price. My feeling based on his vibe was that he wanted a significant profit over issue price.

Zoins

<< <i>Any more info on the legal aspects? >>

I think it's a non-legal tender, private issue fantasy coin. I'm not sure there's anything else to say beyond that.

The silver version is being advertised in national magazines and hasn't made the US Mint's Hot Items page which does cover things like Liberty Dollars, First Strike, Freedom Tower Dollars and fantasy Missouri state quarters.

Zoins

<< <i>It was the silver one and we didn't get to the price. My feeling based on his vibe was that he wanted a significant profit over issue price. >>

One problem with private issue "coins" is that there's often very little information on them, e.g. mintages and where to find them are often simply unavailable. I've seen dcarr's Sac prototype medal sell for $180 on eBay when you can still get it for the $30 issue price on his website.

XpipedreamR

Here's a brief "discussion" of the coin at NGC. Never seen so many one-post members in a thread



link

Zoins

<< <i>Never seen so many one-post members in a thread >>

Haha, good catch!

DWT

<< <i>Here's a brief "discussion" of the coin at NGC. Never seen so many one-post members in a thread :HMMMMlink >>



Heh, that is suspicious. That aside, I like the looks of it, but wouldn't pay much more than melt for it.

XpipedreamR

ttt

GoldenEyeNumismatics

sounds like a bunch of crap

Pentimento

Lisa23F
New Member

Joined: Today
Posts: 1

I think these Morgan designed Full Union tribute coins are totally out of sight! I bought one after my women's aerobics class, and I just know that everyone who purchases one will love it! Plus its certified by top-tier graders NGC AND the Smithsonian! STILL not done Christmas shopping for your wife? Go ahead and pick up one of these gorgeous Gem Uncirculated pieces, she'll LOVE it just like I did!

Leiana

I was reading a book by the Smithsonian over the summer, The Beauty and Lore of Coins, Currency and Medals and there was a picture of Morgan's sketches of the Union in it.

-Amanda

dcarr

<< <i>I've seen dcarr's Sac prototype medal sell for $180 on eBay when you can still get it for the $30 issue price on his website. >>



A couple of my prototype concept dollars have sold on eBay for over $300 - for the same thing I sell on my web site for $25.
Maybe I should just shut down my web site and sell all my prototype dollars on eBay - one at a time.

BigE2

I saw this ad a few months ago. Can't remember what mag, though. Held my interest for as long as it took to read the ad.

I love those postings over at NGC. Are ya kidding me?

XpipedreamR

Here's an auction with better pictures of the coin: link


Item# 220045389421 if the link doesn't work.

Zoins

<< <i>

<< <i>I've seen dcarr's Sac prototype medal sell for $180 on eBay when you can still get it for the $30 issue price on his website. >>



A couple of my prototype concept dollars have sold on eBay for over $300 - for the same thing I sell on my web site for $25.
Maybe I should just shut down my web site and sell all my prototype dollars on eBay - one at a time. >>

Hi dcarr! I think your website is great and one of the best for privately issued tokens and medals. It has lots of photos and pertinent information including final mintage numbers. For some other privately issued coins/tokens/medals, it may be near impossible to find mintage numbers or even a reference website with photos of varieties that were made once they are sold out. You occasionally see photos of the items and CoAs on eBay but that's about it. My comment on price was based on the speculation that there's imperfect information availability and that people who pay far above issue price may not know about your website. While you have a website, many private issues just disappear from official websites after they are sold out.

As for selling them on your website (and eBay) vs one at a time on eBay, I'm not sure what's better. I like your website and have ordered items from it. I also think you'll get a greater following by selling them directly and having a reference for sold out items will increase their collectibility. On the flip side, I get the impression that sales velocity would be slower and items would remain available longer if they were sold one at a time on eBay. Your gorgeous 2006 Denver Mint proof token is one sold out item that I wish I could find (mintage 150):



I ended up ordering the satin finish version (mintage 50) and can't wait to get it. I should mention that I only learned about your items via an eBay search so it is useful for finding new things.

To sum up, I think your website is great and offering items on both your website and eBay works. However, because overall information on private issues is sparse, even when the information is available, it may not be known and can occasionally lead to imperfect market pricing.

CaptHenway

<< <i>Here's a brief "discussion" of the coin at NGC. Never seen so many one-post members in a thread



link >>




Excellent catch. Haven't seen that much shilling since I sold my pre-decimal Australian collection......

The pieces themselves are merely tacky, well described on the holders and not deceptive.
The eBay sale cited was a bit deceptive in the header "RARE 1876...." but if people cannot read the rest of the sale they deserve their own doom.
TD

Zoins

<< <i>The pieces themselves are merely tacky, well described on the holders and not deceptive.
The eBay sale cited was a bit deceptive in the header "RARE 1876...." but if people cannot read the rest of the sale they deserve their own doom. >>

The CoA helps in this case as well.

53BKid

My, Zions, those are some very ugly concept tokens or whatever their called. Sheesh!

The Morgan Designed "Full Union" looks attractive. Thanks for highlighting it xbob!

Zoins

<< <i>My, Zions, those are some very ugly concept tokens or whatever their called. Sheesh!

The Morgan Designed "Full Union" looks attractive. Thanks for highlighting it xbob! >>

It's all in the eye of the beholder. I think dcarr's Denver Mint token looks a lot better than the US Mint SF Old Mint silver dollars. I also think dcarr's Astronaut prototype dollar is great and that Indian Head half eagles are Lady Liberty wearing a Halloween costume (tacky and insulting). While some think the $100 Union is tacky, I wouldn't mind a gold one but not at those prices. I'm not sure we'll ever see a final mintage for the silver $100 Unions so I'm not sure they are worth having. The great thing about coins is that there are enough different designs to satisfy everyone.

Pentimento

<< <i>and that Indian Head half eagles are Lady Liberty wearing a Halloween costume (tacky and insulting).

<< <i>

Indian Head half eagle? I hope that's not Lady Liberty!

Zoins

<< <i>

<< <i>and that Indian Head half eagles are Lady Liberty wearing a Halloween costume (tacky and insulting).

<< <i>

Indian Head half eagle? I hope that's not Lady Liberty! >>

Oops, I meant Indian Head eagles. I actually really like the half eagles. Thanks for the catch.

Conder101

<< <i>Any more info on the legal aspects? >>


Well it really depends on how picky they want to be about it. Technically they could be judged as illegal under Title 31 Sec 489 Which makes it illegal to possess with the intent to sell, give away, or otherwise use any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similartude as to design, color, or the inscriptions thereon of any coin of the US or foreign country. The fine is $100.

So they could argue that if it says United States of America, In God We Trust, a date and denomination that would be good enough to provide "similartude" and find it in violation of the statute. On the other hand it does not violate the terms of the Hobby Protection Act because the item it pretends to be was never actually struck. (If I am wrong and the Union pattern WAS produced, then it is in violation of the HPA.)

Zoins

<< <i>

<< <i>Any more info on the legal aspects? >>


Well it really depends on how picky they want to be about it. Technically they could be judged as illegal under Title 31 Sec 489 Which makes it illegal to possess with the intent to sell, give away, or otherwise use any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similartude as to design, color, or the inscriptions thereon of any coin of the US or foreign country. The fine is $100.

So they could argue that if it says United States of America, In God We Trust, a date and denomination that would be good enough to provide "similartude" and find it in violation of the statute. On the other hand it does not violate the terms of the Hobby Protection Act because the item it pretends to be was never actually struck. (If I am wrong and the Union pattern WAS produced, then it is in violation of the HPA.) >>

I think it's different enough. The Liberty Dollars have generated a lot of controversy for having characteristics of real coins and they are still produced and distributed.

If this was produced, is it in the same collection as the 1964 Peace Dollar. I wonder if anyone is building a set of fantasy coins.

Conder101

The Liberty dollars are illegal under Title 18 Sec 486. That makes it illegal to produce any coin of gold, silver, or other metal with the intent to use as current money whether it resembles a US or foreign coin, or is of original design. The fine is $3,000 and/or 5 years imprisonment. If they just made them as silver rounds they would be legal. But once they advocated using them as money they became illegal.

Zoins

<< <i>The Liberty dollars are illegal under Title 18 Sec 486. That makes it illegal to produce any coin of gold, silver, or other metal with the intent to use as current money whether it resembles a US or foreign coin, or is of original design. The fine is $3,000 and/or 5 years imprisonment. If they just made them as silver rounds they would be legal. But once they advocated using them as money they became illegal. >>

Then why is libertydollar.org still running?

Conder101

Becasue although they have made public statements that their use is illegal, they have not yet bothered to enforce the law. Just because they haven't busted down their doors and arrested the company principals doesn't make the Liberty dollars any less illegal. The government may continue to ignore them, or they could stage a raid tomorrow. It's all up to them.

dcarr

<< <i>Hi dcarr! I think your website is great and one of the best for privately issued tokens and medals. It has lots of photos and pertinent information including final mintage numbers. For some other privately issued coins/tokens/medals, it may be near impossible to find mintage numbers or even a reference website with photos of varieties that were made once they are sold out. You occasionally see photos of the items and CoAs on eBay but that's about it. My comment on price was based on the speculation that there's imperfect information availability and that people who pay far above issue price may not know about your website. While you have a website, many private issues just disappear from official websites after they are sold out.

As for selling them on your website (and eBay) vs one at a time on eBay, I'm not sure what's better. I like your website and have ordered items from it. I also think you'll get a greater following by selling them directly and having a reference for sold out items will increase their collectibility. On the flip side, I get the impression that sales velocity would be slower and items would remain available longer if they were sold one at a time on eBay. Your gorgeous 2006 Denver Mint proof token is one sold out item that I wish I could find (mintage 150):

I ended up ordering the satin finish version and can't wait to get it. I should mention that I only learned about your items via an eBay search so it is useful for finding new things.

To sum up, I think your website is great and offering items on both your website and eBay works. However, because overall information on private issues is sparse, even when the information is available, it may not be known and can occasionally lead to imperfect market pricing. >>



Thanks !
I'll continue with the web site indefinitely. I will contine to maintain historical information on items even after they've sold out. And I'll also have sales on eBay now and then. My Denver Mint Centennial medals/tokens are sold out in proof-like (brass and silver). With a satin finish, I have ONE left in silver and FIVE in brass (not counting a few I'm holding on to for myself plus one last example of each that I'll probably sell on eBay after the web site is sold out).

dcarr

<< <i>Becasue although they have made public statements that their use is illegal, they have not yet bothered to enforce the law. Just because they haven't busted down their doors and arrested the company principals doesn't make the Liberty dollars any less illegal. The government may continue to ignore them, or they could stage a raid tomorrow. It's all up to them. >>



It seems that the government doesn't care so much when you make something like this. But when you try to pass it off as legal tender currency (Liberty Dollar), or cross the line with marketing hype (Freedom Tower Silver Dollar), then that is when they come down on you.

I find it very sad that they aren't doing a thing about the highly-illegal Asian counterfeits of US legal tender silver dollar coins flooding into the USA.

The Liberty dollars used to say "USA" and "$20". That is just about crossing the line right there. But now they no longer state "USA" on them, but they do still say "$20". In their current form, they are in no way illegal to produce or exchange for something else. They are not much different than a $20 casino token.

Conder101

<< <i>They are not much different than a $20 casino token. >>


One big difference. The $20 casino token is intended for use within the casino itself only as a private token. If they tried to get you to use it in another casino that would be illegal, or if the casinos banded together to create a token that would be accepted in multiple casinos that would be illegal. (Back in the 60's when silver dollars were disappearing and the casino first started creating the dollar sized tokens they tried that and the government did step in to stop it.)

Norfed is advocating the use of their Liberty dollars as a general currency and that violates the portion of Title 18 Sec 486 dealing with "Intent to use as current money".

It is interesting that there are no laws requiring people to accept US government legal tender, but there is a law forbidding you from using anything else (made of metal). Oh but there is nothing illegal abou the paper currency that Norfed issues, just the coins. There is nothing in Title 18 that makes their passage illegal. The closest is Sec 491 which covers passing created notes, currency etc with fraudulent intent. This makes the intent of the person passing it to be the questionable and not the passing of the note itself. If you have a group of merchants that knowingly agree to accept Norfed notes and you give them one there is no intent to defraud and the passage of the note is perfectly legal.

Zoins

<< <i>One big difference. The $20 casino token is intended for use within the casino itself only as a private token. If they tried to get you to use it in another casino that would be illegal, or if the casinos banded together to create a token that would be accepted in multiple casinos that would be illegal. (Back in the 60's when silver dollars were disappearing and the casino first started creating the dollar sized tokens they tried that and the government did step in to stop it.)

Norfed is advocating the use of their Liberty dollars as a general currency and that violates the portion of Title 18 Sec 486 dealing with "Intent to use as current money". >>

What about tokens accepted at multiple venues but specifically have the words "$1 in trade" and expire after a certain amount of time? Are Maui Trade Dollars and Los Angeles Birthday Dollars illegal under the law? During the year they are valid, it seems there is intent to use them as money for the exchange of goods at multiple venues. I assume there's some way for merchants to have them converted back to US money otherwise they wouldn't accept them. Perhaps it's the expiration that makes them okay?

Conder101

Technically they probably ARE illegal, but the government just isn't bothering to waste their time going to the effort of enforcing the law in that case because it is just a local, time limited issue.

Zoins

<< <i>Technically they probably ARE illegal, but the government just isn't bothering to waste their time going to the effort of enforcing the law in that case because it is just a local, time limited issue. >>

So the conclusion seems to be that the $100 Unions are illegal but the government isn't going to bother with it until someone tries to pass it off as legal tender? There's certainly nothing on the coin itself that would help you distinguish it from US legal tender (other than knowing the specific pattern was never used).

bsshog40

I bought me a silver one about a year ago I think. These were also being sold from Monoco Rare Coins, which is where I bought mine from. They had also listed a mintage number for these but I forgot what that was.

mhammerman

The real thing(s)

boiler78

mhammerman- The coins in the image you posted are both half unions and it is a good thing the image is cropped above Andys waist!